Muslims

[UmmSqueakster 54]

I became a Muslim in April of 2007. I did this because I wanted to be closer to God. I believed that Islam offered that. I didn't really give up any of my beliefs to become a Muslim. I never bought into Christianity anyway. I just believed/still believe in God. I "deconverted" from Islam recently. I cannot bring myself to be a part of a religion that "empowers" women through submission, believes the Qu'ran is the final absolute word of God, but needs scholars (from many different schools of thought) to give me different interpretations of God's word, and uses EXTRA material to "fill in the gaps" the Qur'an doesn't cover. I'm sorry, but if the Qur'an is indeed the FINAL ABSOLUTE word of God, there would be no need for all that extra stuff. God does not make mistakes. There is no "P.S" at the end of the Qur'an. (Sorry, but that really bothered me).

I am very sorry to hear this. I do hope you find what you're looking for if you didn't find it in islam (although I'll concur with your first point that I don't think you'll find it as Islam is it).

Why the sunnah? Because the Beloved (swt) didn't simply reveal His perfect Word to us and leave us to fend for ourselves. He revealed it to the perfect teacher. And that perfect Word exhorts us over and over again to follow Muhammad (saws). That's the PS - "Say: "If ye do love Allah, Follow me: Allah will love you and forgive you your sins: For Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. Say: "Obey Allah and His Messenger": But if they turn back, Allah loveth not those who reject Faith (3:31-32)."

After that teacher passed away, his companions sought to follow these commands, and sought to preserve his teachings, so that future generations and those who did not know the Prophet (saws) would know how to follow these command. Over time the science of hadith and the madhab system were codified so that it wasn't just a random ad hoc system of people asking others what the Prophet (saws) had said on an issue.

I personally don't think religion is necessary for me to believe in God and serve Him. I don't think there is anything wrong with practicing a religion as long as it brings you closer to that higher being the whole world seems to believe in. I am a believer in God. The end. I don't want to be a part of religion because religion pushes me farther away from God.

Then how does one understand what God wants, if not from religion? Is it simply what we feel? What we want? Every society builds for itself a set of rules and constructs to work within. Why wouldn't God give us the same?

[UmmSqueakster 54]

The Islam I see from some on this site is all about dogma and rules and lacks heart, empathy and generosity. The beautiful sentiments and ideas are drowned in a sea of smug, righteous stupidity.

If one gets that impression from the postings here, well, this thread isn't the be all and end all of the religion. Imam Suhaib Webb is teaching from a classic text on spirituality and good character. That's a good place to start.

Another place to look is Sh. Zulfiqar Ahmad's book "Love for Allah," which is available online for free.

[Ahmeds Girl 0]

I became a Muslim in April of 2007. I did this because I wanted to be closer to God. I believed that Islam offered that. I didn't really give up any of my beliefs to become a Muslim. I never bought into Christianity anyway. I just believed/still believe in God. I "deconverted" from Islam recently. I cannot bring myself to be a part of a religion that "empowers" women through submission, believes the Qu'ran is the final absolute word of God, but needs scholars (from many different schools of thought) to give me different interpretations of God's word, and uses EXTRA material to "fill in the gaps" the Qur'an doesn't cover. I'm sorry, but if the Qur'an is indeed the FINAL ABSOLUTE word of God, there would be no need for all that extra stuff. God does not make mistakes. There is no "P.S" at the end of the Qur'an. (Sorry, but that really bothered me).

I am very sorry to hear this. I do hope you find what you're looking for if you didn't find it in islam (although I'll concur with your first point that I don't think you'll find it as Islam is it).

Why the sunnah? Because the Beloved (swt) didn't simply reveal His perfect Word to us and leave us to fend for ourselves. He revealed it to the perfect teacher. And that perfect Word exhorts us over and over again to follow Muhammad (saws). That's the PS - "Say: "If ye do love Allah, Follow me: Allah will love you and forgive you your sins: For Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. Say: "Obey Allah and His Messenger": But if they turn back, Allah loveth not those who reject Faith (3:31-32)."

After that teacher passed away, his companions sought to follow these commands, and sought to preserve his teachings, so that future generations and those who did not know the Prophet (saws) would know how to follow these command. Over time the science of hadith and the madhab system were codified so that it wasn't just a random ad hoc system of people asking others what the Prophet (saws) had said on an issue.

I personally don't think religion is necessary for me to believe in God and serve Him. I don't think there is anything wrong with practicing a religion as long as it brings you closer to that higher being the whole world seems to believe in. I am a believer in God. The end. I don't want to be a part of religion because religion pushes me farther away from God.

Then how does one understand what God wants, if not from religion? Is it simply what we feel? What we want? Every society builds for itself a set of rules and constructs to work within. Why wouldn't God give us the same?

"Then how does one understand what God wants, if not from religion? Is it simply what we feel? What we want? Every society builds for itself a set of rules and constructs to work within. Why wouldn't God give us the same?"

'One' doesn't understand what God wants, imho, but the desire to understand about creation is a timeless and noble one. You may believe that a certain religion contains the word of God. I don't. Religious people often use the argument that we will all collapse without religious guidelines, but society is perfectly capable of determining its own. Perhpas we should give God a little credit for creating humanity with the ability to determine good from evil. History shows that, Catholics and Protestants have slaughtered each other and Muslim has killed Muslim. None of that is religions fault, of course. Or is it? If religion wasn't so confused, so unclear, there wouldn't be so much room for misunderstanding.

Morality is not the sole property of those of faith. History shows many instances of the horrors of religious intolerance. When people stop dictating to others about their personal Gods then we can move forward. Who knows... we might all be better human beings that way. My understanding of God is every bit as powerful and real to me as yours is. I don't need to prescribe to others how to live their lives. It intrigues me when others do.

[Ahmeds Girl 0]

The Islam I see from some on this site is all about dogma and rules and lacks heart, empathy and generosity. The beautiful sentiments and ideas are drowned in a sea of smug, righteous stupidity.

If one gets that impression from the postings here, well, this thread isn't the be all and end all of the religion. Imam Suhaib Webb is teaching from a classic text on spirituality and good character. That's a good place to start.

Another place to look is Sh. Zulfiqar Ahmad's book "Love for Allah," which is available online for free.

I am very aware that this forum is but a drop in the ocean in terms of religious discussion.

"Perhaps we should give God a little credit for creating humanity with the ability to determine good from evil."

I should add that I was being slightly tongue-in-cheek with the use of 'we' above. There are perhaps readers here who don't believe in God... and I respect their views fully too.

Edited April 30, 2009 by Ahmeds Girl

[doodlebugg 10]

Also wanted to add that Islam isn't for everyone. I mean Christianity and Islam are not the only options. There's Buddism (sp?), Hindu, Judaism, etc. I remember someone had put up a link to a site that had a questionaire and at the end it kind of told you what you're leaning towards in terms of what you believe in. I know that's no help since I don't have the link but it might be a place to start. I think it's healthy to look at all that is out there before making a decision. Once I had started questioning Catholicism and the Pope specifically I think I attended every denomination of Christianity that existed. It was kind of fun shopping around a bit. I'm too cranky and b!tchy to be a Buddhist and I just don't get Hinduism. I looked into Judaism during high school just because most of my friends were jewish but I didn't want to learn a new language to read the Torah so that was the end of that. lol

I think this is a bold claim. I never understood this. When I was submerged in Islam I believed, and was told Islam IS for everyone. Plus, if you (not specifically humkinpumpkin... ANYONE) are a Muslim and you believe it is the true religion, shouldn't you also believe Islam is for everyone? Wouldn't other religions such as Christianity, Hinduism and Buddhism lead people to shirk? Isn't that a BIG No No in Islam?

Just for clarity, are you yelling at me? 'cause I'm super sensitive lately.

Anyhoo yes I'm muslim, yes I believe in ONE God and that the Prophet Muhammed is his messenger but I also happen to believe that if my daughters, for example, choose to remain Christian or even convert to Judaism in order to make their soul shine for God, that God will not punish them. I don't believe that in the Quran it states that Christians or Jews are going to hell, though I haven't read it in a while. I believe Islam is the true religion for me and I do hope that once my children start researching God and religion that they decide to become Muslim as well but if they don't then so be it. I'm human and I don't have the ability to make people believe in something they don't believe in.

As far as that being a big no no in Islam, I'm far from perfect. If God wanted me perfect he'd have attached a big fat eraser on my big fat azz. I am a born sinner and will probably keep on a sinnin' till the day I die. I try my best but I do have free will too, which is from God. In the end I'll be judged by Allah and Allah alone. Guess I suck at being muslim but then that's life.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

When people stop believing in God, they don’t believe in nothing, they believe in anything. ~ G. K. Chesterton

QUOTE (Ahmeds Girl @ Apr 30 2009, 10:13 AM)

The Islam I see from some on this site is all about dogma and rules and lacks heart, empathy and generosity. The beautiful sentiments and ideas are drowned in a sea of smug, righteous stupidity.

The ole complant about people giving religion a bad name is nothing more than an excuse to reject the fact that religion sets limits and a lot of people these days just don't like limits. They want everything to be relative and allow them to screw up, get empathy, and then go on as if no one should ever judge them. But,we are called upon to separate the good from the bad, in morality and in human behavior. If we can't do that, then what do we gain from morality? How do we implement social justice?

In the end, everyone comes to God or moves away from God for their own reasons, and within their own comfort zones. Those who fear righteousness cannot achieve it, but their own personal God will not judge them, because their personal God is themselves.

Edited April 30, 2009 by Barza Woman

[sandinista! 1,816]

When people stop believing in God, they don’t believe in nothing, they believe in anything. ~ G. K. Chesterton

QUOTE (Ahmeds Girl @ Apr 30 2009, 10:13 AM)

The Islam I see from some on this site is all about dogma and rules and lacks heart, empathy and generosity. The beautiful sentiments and ideas are drowned in a sea of smug, righteous stupidity.

The ole complant about people giving religion a bad name is nothing more than an excuse to reject the fact that religion sets limits and a lot of people these days just don't like limits. They want everything to be relative and allow them to screw up, get empathy, and then go on as if no one should ever judge them. But,we are called upon to separate the good from the bad, in morality and in human behavior. If we can't do that, then what do we gain from morality? How do we implement social justice?

In the end, everyone comes to God or moves away from God for their own reasons, and within their own comfort zones. Those who fear righteousness cannot achieve it, but their own personal God will not judge them, because their personal God is themselves.

i had previously thought that this particular straw man was strictly the domain of angsty teenagers, but it looks like there's adults still stuck on this 3rd rate challenge to the value and importance of religion. i read the other day about a catholic theologian who says "the quality of Western atheism had gone steadily downhill since Nietzsche." i think he may be right...

[HLM 1]

I want to comment on Leyla's point concerning the scholars and how come we need them if the quran is the final word...well It is the final word and there are no gaps..but remember because Muslims are not all the same; they are in different parts of the world with different circumstances and conditions...sometimes that comes in the way of practicing the religion and so they need solutions to their problems -for example missed one salat and the other salat is already on which one shall he pray first- or whatever it is and here comes the role of the scholar to help that person find the solution for his problem from the quran and the hadith; they are not allowed to be astray or contradict the Quran. There isnt a single scholar who doesn't use proof from the quran and hadith! Personal opinions are not allowed by any means in this case. I'm not trying to convince you by the way- or try to prove anything to you.

Also all scholars agree on 99% on everything except that 1% that I see as mercy from Allah; so that everyone can chose the perfect solution for him/herself.

English is my second language; so forgive me if I don't make sense or if the point is not clear and I ask any sister here to please correct me if she can

[Leyla 0]

I appreciate all of your honesty. I have read arguments for Islam vs. Christianity and alot of it made sense. There are some parts of it (Islam) that I still struggle with understanding. Thanks again for the responses.

Also wanted to add that Islam isn't for everyone. I mean Christianity and Islam are not the only options. There's Buddism (sp?), Hindu, Judaism, etc. I remember someone had put up a link to a site that had a questionaire and at the end it kind of told you what you're leaning towards in terms of what you believe in. I know that's no help since I don't have the link but it might be a place to start. I think it's healthy to look at all that is out there before making a decision. Once I had started questioning Catholicism and the Pope specifically I think I attended every denomination of Christianity that existed. It was kind of fun shopping around a bit. I'm too cranky and b!tchy to be a Buddhist and I just don't get Hinduism. I looked into Judaism during high school just because most of my friends were jewish but I didn't want to learn a new language to read the Torah so that was the end of that. lol

I think this is a bold claim. I never understood this. When I was submerged in Islam I believed, and was told Islam IS for everyone. Plus, if you (not specifically humkinpumpkin... ANYONE) are a Muslim and you believe it is the true religion, shouldn't you also believe Islam is for everyone? Wouldn't other religions such as Christianity, Hinduism and Buddhism lead people to shirk? Isn't that a BIG No No in Islam?

I became a Muslim in April of 2007. I did this because I wanted to be closer to God. I believed that Islam offered that. I didn't really give up any of my beliefs to become a Muslim. I never bought into Christianity anyway. I just believed/still believe in God. I "deconverted" from Islam recently. I cannot bring myself to be a part of a religion that "empowers" women through submission, believes the Qu'ran is the final absolute word of God, but needs scholars (from many different schools of thought) to give me different interpretations of God's word, and uses EXTRA material to "fill in the gaps" the Qur'an doesn't cover. I'm sorry, but if the Qur'an is indeed the FINAL ABSOLUTE word of God, there would be no need for all that extra stuff. God does not make mistakes. There is no "P.S" at the end of the Qur'an. (Sorry, but that really bothered me).

I personally don't think religion is necessary for me to believe in God and serve Him. I don't think there is anything wrong with practicing a religion as long as it brings you closer to that higher being the whole world seems to believe in. I am a believer in God. The end. I don't want to be a part of religion because religion pushes me farther away from God.

When I was submerged in Islam I believed, and was told Islam IS for everyone.

This is one of the most ridiculous, misleading statements, but typical of some religions to pitch their sales net as wide as possible. Islam isn't for me. It wasn't for you. It isn't for most people I know. It is only for you if you WANT it to be. Like any faith, it is matter of choice, if you are fortunate enough to grow up in a country that gives you religious freedom.

Also wanted to add that Islam isn't for everyone. I mean Christianity and Islam are not the only options. There's Buddism (sp?), Hindu, Judaism, etc. I remember someone had put up a link to a site that had a questionaire and at the end it kind of told you what you're leaning towards in terms of what you believe in. I know that's no help since I don't have the link but it might be a place to start. I think it's healthy to look at all that is out there before making a decision. Once I had started questioning Catholicism and the Pope specifically I think I attended every denomination of Christianity that existed. It was kind of fun shopping around a bit. I'm too cranky and b!tchy to be a Buddhist and I just don't get Hinduism. I looked into Judaism during high school just because most of my friends were jewish but I didn't want to learn a new language to read the Torah so that was the end of that. lol

I think this is a bold claim. I never understood this. When I was submerged in Islam I believed, and was told Islam IS for everyone. Plus, if you (not specifically humkinpumpkin... ANYONE) are a Muslim and you believe it is the true religion, shouldn't you also believe Islam is for everyone? Wouldn't other religions such as Christianity, Hinduism and Buddhism lead people to shirk? Isn't that a BIG No No in Islam?

Just for clarity, are you yelling at me? 'cause I'm super sensitive lately.

Anyhoo yes I'm muslim, yes I believe in ONE God and that the Prophet Muhammed is his messenger but I also happen to believe that if my daughters, for example, choose to remain Christian or even convert to Judaism in order to make their soul shine for God, that God will not punish them. I don't believe that in the Quran it states that Christians or Jews are going to hell, though I haven't read it in a while. I believe Islam is the true religion for me and I do hope that once my children start researching God and religion that they decide to become Muslim as well but if they don't then so be it. I'm human and I don't have the ability to make people believe in something they don't believe in.

As far as that being a big no no in Islam, I'm far from perfect. If God wanted me perfect he'd have attached a big fat eraser on my big fat azz. I am a born sinner and will probably keep on a sinnin' till the day I die. I try my best but I do have free will too, which is from God. In the end I'll be judged by Allah and Allah alone. Guess I suck at being muslim but then that's life.

No no no no. Never Humpkin. I'm not yelling at you (or anyone really...). I just got a lot of questions and felt the need to comment.

Through my study of religion (I am a religion major) I don't understand how some people claim their religion is THE religion but still say it's ok if you're not of that religion. Personally, I don't think it matters. I truly believe God will love me no matter what religion I decided to adhere to, if any.

I don't know... when I was a Muslim I got SOOOOO many mixed messages. People lead me down so many paths and I hated it. One person said this and gave me a hadith or verse to back it up. Then someone said the opposite and ALSO quoted hadith and verses to back it up and I would end up getting 4 ideas on the same topic, all with evidence.

I thought: How could believing in God be so HARD? How could God's message be so different?

I've just decided to worship God in.... a raw, basic way. I've decided to love God with all my heart with nothing in the way. I've boiled all religions down to the basics:

1. God

2. Being good to others as well as yourself

3. and.... G-O-D

Through religion I lost sight of God and I never felt so alone in my life. It was the first time, in a long time I was wondering if I was in God's good graces or not. I was wondering if I had been abandoned. I didn't FEEL God around me anymore, and that scared me.

If you're interested in my ideas and my journey from Islam to where I am now... you can go here here and check it out.

[doodlebugg 10]

I totally understand what you're saying. I don't know if this is a good analogy or not (prolly not) but when I used to go on a diet whethere it be WW or Atkins I would follow it to the T. I would totally reap the benefits as well until eventually...burn out! Now I'm on WW again and I told myself listen, you're human. Do the best you can and see what happens. What a load off of my mind!!! Instead of trying to be perfect in it and not make mistakes, which btw is a LOT of effort!, I just do the best that I can with what I have.

I'm prolly going straight to hell for this one but I do the same thing with salat now. Before, when I was trying to be perfect, if I had missed a few salats I wouldn't say the next salat until I made up ALL of my missed ones. Now I do the next one and get to making the others up when I get to making them up. I find this way I don't miss as much, which is strange. Does that make sense? If I were to delve real deep into it it prolly stems back from childhood when, if I brought home an A- I was asked what I did wrong and why wasn't it an A. When I'd clean the bathroom I would be shown a few tiny pieces of grout that I didn't get with my toothbrush soaked with bleach.

I'm probably going to read this later and say ####### was I talking about. lol

[Leyla 0]

I totally understand what you're saying. I don't know if this is a good analogy or not (prolly not) but when I used to go on a diet whethere it be WW or Atkins I would follow it to the T. I would totally reap the benefits as well until eventually...burn out! Now I'm on WW again and I told myself listen, you're human. Do the best you can and see what happens. What a load off of my mind!!! Instead of trying to be perfect in it and not make mistakes, which btw is a LOT of effort!, I just do the best that I can with what I have.

I'm prolly going straight to hell for this one but I do the same thing with salat now. Before, when I was trying to be perfect, if I had missed a few salats I wouldn't say the next salat until I made up ALL of my missed ones. Now I do the next one and get to making the others up when I get to making them up. I find this way I don't miss as much, which is strange. Does that make sense? If I were to delve real deep into it it prolly stems back from childhood when, if I brought home an A- I was asked what I did wrong and why wasn't it an A. When I'd clean the bathroom I would be shown a few tiny pieces of grout that I didn't get with my toothbrush soaked with bleach.

I'm probably going to read this later and say ####### was I talking about. lol

Makes sense to me.

[catknit 144]

I stumbled across this article today and it seems it may fit in with your current discussion....

E Pluribis Islam?

The fragile promise of Muslim diversity.

By Irshad Manji | Newsweek Web Exclusive

Apr 30, 2009

"At a recent event in India, I asked Pakistan's former president, Pervez Musharraf, whether he would support his country's tireless human-rights activists. He invited me to pose a different question. I didn't.

"Sit down!" the retired Army general then ordered.

Things probably won't get that tense when Pakistan's current president, Asif Ali Zardari, visits Barack Obama next week. But maybe they should, given the Taliban's growing reach and Zardari's plunging credibility. The two presidents will be joined by a third, Hamid Karzai of Afghanistan, a religious "moderate" who routinely barters away the rights of women and minorities to warlords and mullahs.

As a reform-minded Muslim, I admit that these guys make the notion of diversity in my faith look laughable. Their track records underscore why we have to venture beyond geopolitical hotspots to fathom the future of progressive Islam.

A year ago, I traveled to Indonesia during Kartini Days. That's when almost 300 million people, most of them Muslim, pay tribute to an early 20th-century Indonesian feminist named Kartini. Although a controversial figure—too revolutionary for some, not radical enough for others—the nationwide affection that I witnessed for her rivals the respect I observe each April in the U.S. for Martin Luther King Jr.

I arrived in Jakarta to launch my book and film, both of which call on Muslims to embrace human rights and freedom of conscience for all. Hundreds of students showed up, ranging from transsexuals to Islamists. They spoke their minds. They disagreed. In between the verbal sparring, guitarists strummed, poets recited and dancers kicked up their Javanese heels. Nobody downplayed their conflicts; instead, they treated dispute as a necessity of democracy. Everybody left safely—including the most vocal transsexual, who proudly announced that after her surgery, she fought for the right to wear a headscarf. She won. My uncovered head spun at the layers of nuance being expressed.

For all its promise, exemplified by last week's national elections favoring secular parties, Indonesia nonetheless flirts with peril. In only 10 years, Islamism has gone from being a joke to a force. Once an authoritarian state whose military quashed any inconvenient element, Indonesia introduced democratic reforms a decade ago. Since then, a free press has emerged. So has political Islam..."

http://www.newsweek.com/id/195490/page/1

[doodlebugg 10]

I stumbled across this article today and it seems it may fit in with your current discussion....

E Pluribis Islam?

The fragile promise of Muslim diversity.

By Irshad Manji | Newsweek Web Exclusive

Apr 30, 2009

"At a recent event in India, I asked Pakistan's former president, Pervez Musharraf, whether he would support his country's tireless human-rights activists. He invited me to pose a different question. I didn't.

"Sit down!" the retired Army general then ordered.

Things probably won't get that tense when Pakistan's current president, Asif Ali Zardari, visits Barack Obama next week. But maybe they should, given the Taliban's growing reach and Zardari's plunging credibility. The two presidents will be joined by a third, Hamid Karzai of Afghanistan, a religious "moderate" who routinely barters away the rights of women and minorities to warlords and mullahs.

As a reform-minded Muslim, I admit that these guys make the notion of diversity in my faith look laughable. Their track records underscore why we have to venture beyond geopolitical hotspots to fathom the future of progressive Islam.

A year ago, I traveled to Indonesia during Kartini Days. That's when almost 300 million people, most of them Muslim, pay tribute to an early 20th-century Indonesian feminist named Kartini. Although a controversial figure—too revolutionary for some, not radical enough for others—the nationwide affection that I witnessed for her rivals the respect I observe each April in the U.S. for Martin Luther King Jr.

I arrived in Jakarta to launch my book and film, both of which call on Muslims to embrace human rights and freedom of conscience for all. Hundreds of students showed up, ranging from transsexuals to Islamists. They spoke their minds. They disagreed. In between the verbal sparring, guitarists strummed, poets recited and dancers kicked up their Javanese heels. Nobody downplayed their conflicts; instead, they treated dispute as a necessity of democracy. Everybody left safely—including the most vocal transsexual, who proudly announced that after her surgery, she fought for the right to wear a headscarf. She won. My uncovered head spun at the layers of nuance being expressed.

For all its promise, exemplified by last week's national elections favoring secular parties, Indonesia nonetheless flirts with peril. In only 10 years, Islamism has gone from being a joke to a force. Once an authoritarian state whose military quashed any inconvenient element, Indonesia introduced democratic reforms a decade ago. Since then, a free press has emerged. So has political Islam..."

http://www.newsweek.com/id/195490/page/1

Good lord I hope that type of "outside of the box" Islam doesn't spread like that everywhere! Waaaaaay over the top for me and I'm pretty liberal.

[UmmSqueakster 54]

Irshad Manji. Meh.

I read something simple, but quite profound this morning - Some people want to reform Islam; I want Islam to reform me.

Tazkiya ftw! (ok that last bit is from me and is in no way profound).

[Sofiyya 1,687]

"God" is certainly easy to follow if you make up your own "God" and your own rules. It is a challenge to follow God according to His rules. I won't let others lead me away from religion because we don't agree. I don't have to agree with them; I only have to agree with Him. That keeps it simple and beautiful, as it should be.

Irshad Manji is one of those malcontent Muslims who want Islam to be made over so it's easy for her to ignore the inconvient tenets of the faith. Since 9/11, malcontent Muslims - terrorists and reformers -, Orientalists, ex-Muslims and Robert Spencer types are very popular with the non-Muslim media. Sensationalism and discontent sell well.

Edited May 1, 2009 by Barza Woman