Muslims

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Rahma and I said exactly the same thing, so if you're offended, you're selectively offended. Frankly, it bothers me not at all that you're offended because I not only said nothing wrong, I did so respectfully. You are the one with the problem, not I.

No offense intended to anyone.

You don't even know the context of my post to Tina... but don't let that stop you from just JUMPING ON IN THERE and bustin' my chops.... without even thinking there might be more to this than YOU KNOW!

Spare me the lecture.... Spare Dear Tina the lecture! Can you at LEAST wait until she reverts before you whack people over the head with your "holier than thou" attitude and 10# bag of LEGALISM???? I am so deeply saddened that you portray yourself as the SUPER MUSLIMAH... while bashing and thrashing around with your judgements and always maintaining your harsh and judgemental ways. Of course from previous experience I know that I bring out the BEST in you... Khaf Allah!

So you recommend that non-Muslims start practicing Islam BEFORE they revert????? Should they see if they can follow all the RULES before they revert????? Since the rules are so important... and if they find they can't follow rules of a religion they don't even BELONG TO, then what should they do? Is this to prevent apostasy? Or? This seems like putting the cart before the horse!

Personally I think BELIEF should come first... but what do I know... I wasn't BORN MUSLIM like you... I am absolutely bowled over by your minimization of the importance of BELIEF and high regard for LEGALISM..... Sad, very sad indeed....

I am sorry Tina and all the sisters on this thread. It was never my intention to post something that would set off VW. I should have known she would go Jihadi on me... not my first experience with the WRATH of VW, and it's happened to MANY before ME (thus the laughing about her "no offense" statement) and I predict it will CONTINUE to happen to MANY AFTER me... Question is.... why? Sad, very sad indeed...

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Lord knows I've disagreed with VW on a number of occasions, but in this situation, she's spot on. Islam IS a faith of rules, and if someone is considering converting to Islam, they should be well aware of that fact ahead of time.

In the famous hadith jibreel, we find that the religion is composed of 3 things - islam, iman and ihsan. It's not made up simply of the rules, nor is it simply made up of faith. It's a balance between these three things. If you have one without the other, your religion isn't complete. I'd venture to posit that a lot of the problems facing the muslim world are because of an imbalance of these three things.

She may be on a spot, I just don't see which spot she is on....

#1 I never said that rules don't have any place in Islam, obviously for Muslims they do! Tina is not a Muslim, she is learning/studying Islam.

#2 My post was not about "awareness of rules" for people considering conversion.

Of course people should learn about the "rules" of any faith they are studying, in contemplation of conversion! That's not rocket science... There's a big difference in studying rules and applying them PRIOR to reverting!

I simply suggested that since Tina hasn't concluded that she no longer believes in the tenents of the faith in which she was raised, (a faith that doesn't require her to remove nail polish in order to pray), that until she believes in Islam, and choses to revert there is no need for her to struggle with issues related to performing wudu.

Before someone can take on a new religion, they have to leave the "old one" behind... Especially if you were raised like Tina and I were.... You can't go to home plate with your foot still firmly planted on 3rd base... You must step OFF before you STEP ON.

And there is an ORDER in which you submerge yourself into your new faith! That's why the 5 pillars come in an order! Haj doesn't come before Shahada!!!!

Yes Islam is comprisedof all 3 things, and they come in a logical order: Starting with: Iman (faith) FOLLOWED BY: Islam (submission)and FINALLY: Ihsan (charitable acts) 2 of the 3 have almost nothing to do with the RULES! (OK OK, zakat is a "rule" and it is ihsan) And this is exactly what I was saying to Tina... submission (rule following) without belief (or faith to believe) is hollow and in my opinion futile in the long run. Don't put the cart before the horse!

And I wholeheartedly concur that the lack of balance is a HUGE problem... in fact I'd venture to say that balance isn't even the right term, absence might be more accurate, or MIA... Simple acts of kindness, patience, mercy, compassion, gentleness and good manners are nearly non-existent. Muslim "Pharisees and Sadducees" ABOUND!

The first thing EVERYONE wants to "teach the new revert" is the RULES! In fact most of the ones teaching the new reverts (typically the "Genuine BORN A MUSLIM ROLE MODELS") ONLY know the RULES.... The entire spirit of Islam is LOST ON THEM. But they can tell you every rule and OOPS UP SIDE YOUR HEAD if you dare to even question the history or logic behind a rule.. (which they likley don't know or care to know...)

Islam requires Muslims to discuss religion ONLY WITH THE BEST of MANNERS. And this should extend from Muslim to Muslim, not only Muslim to Non-Muslim.

I'm sure those who react with PIOUS VENOM to anything they read and don't either understand or agree with might not realize that their lack of manners (adab) weakens any possibility they have of impressing anyone with their claimed "knowledge"... if the person listening has the foggiest notion of how Muslims are SUPPOSED to act.

In the case of VW the foul language she has used in the past has made me conclude that while she may spend alot of time strictly following rules... it isn't enough to make me give ANY creedence to her posts. I just see her avatar and think "consider the source" and move on.

Perhaps you should think of the bolden part of your post before you respond with your own "jihad". You contradict your own words, and forget that Christianity calls for the same humility you admonish me about that is also lacking in you, so YOU can be accused of hypocrisy even as you rage.

I don't force myself or my opinions on you; you are one minor person out of all who read here, and you have every opportunity to ignore my posts. Not everything is about you. My life will go on quite well without your over reactions, simplifications and misinterpretions of my words, and I thank Allah for that.

Edited March 7, 2009 by Virtual wife

[Sofiyya 1,687]

I read this thread, but rarely post. However, this post caught my eye. I, too, have been concerned about the concept of "Islam is whatever is in our hearts" for some time, as repeated on this board. Islam is an organized religion with tenets, traditions, texts and established methodologies for forming interpretations. It is a legalistic faith. with rules, boundaries and absolutes, although they may not always be agreed on. Some are legislated in the Quran, and, through the Prophetic traditions. Some have developed over time though fiqh determinations.

Islam is also a faith that require thought and consideration, for the Quran counsels against blind following, and also teaches that one's acts are one's rewards or burdens. While it is possible to disagree over interpretations, daleel (evidence) is required to support one's position. "I believe it in my heart" is not credible support in opposition to legitimate, if flawed, opinion. I cringe every time I read someone posting that, and have had more than my share of disagreements about it here and IRL. "Believing in your heart" is a form of moral relativism that has no foundation in Islam. It is offensive to more knowledable adherents and students of the faith, so, I strongly counsel against its usage in individual practice and guidance of others. We can and will debate points in Islamic tenets and practice, but should do so in keeping with proper scholarship and with the very best intentions, whatever you decide.

Mark this day on your calendar ya'll. If VW and I agree on something, it's gotta be big.

We probably agree on more than you realize. The reason why I decided not to post in this thread on a regular basis is because I can see that the needs and emphasis of many converts or those contemplating conversion tend to be different than someone who was born into Islam and who has practiced and studied it all their life, as I have. My sources and answers tend to be more esoteric then what is sought, and my emphasis less basic than that of beginners, who lean toward seeking "safe" approval from those viewed as "authentic" within their specific Muslim communities. No offense intended to anyone.

I was just wondering where you studied at , Islamic studies? In some ways you are right in that when you first convert to Islam it can seem overwhelming if you try to take everything in all at once. Its a step by step thing. And of coarse NOBODY even Islamic Scholars can say they have stopped learning. One thing I have learned is that every Muslim has a different stage in life that they are in. Like a stair case some are at the top and some at the bottom waiting to climb. Those in between help others along. So we should all seek knowledge and never stop trying to grow in our deen.

I began studies at age eight in Fez, and have studied with scholars in several countries, primarily Morocco, France, Egypt and Indonesia, from that time on. At 56, I am still learning, and, insha'allah, will not stop until I die. I curently work with several Islamic legal scholars and jurists with ijaza, including my cousin, with whom I traveled thru MENA as a human rights worker for more than two decades.

I must say, and not from anything you said, merijan, but on general principle, because it comes up often, that I am amused by the notion that Muslim teachers and scholars are these peaceful, saintly, Buddha-like role models that don't scold or have moods and tempers. I think that's what adoring and submissive students, particularly in the west, expect to see, but having worked with many, I can vouch for the fact that that is an illusion. We are a pretty scrappy bunch, with rivalries, cliques, and our share of outrageous personalities.

While it may be tempting to criticize adab based on some tenuous idea of what educated Muslims are supposed to be like, it's best to remember that we are just people, struggling, in faith, to manage life from day to day. Jesus had a temper, and a violent side, and the Prophet Muhammed was admonished by God for being a wuss when it came to his wives, who sometimes drove him to exasperation. Even as He guides, not even God expects perfection from us, just the best that we can do under given circumstances. We're not angels.

To avoid criticism, say nothing, do nothing, be nothing - Aristotle

Edited March 7, 2009 by Virtual wife

[Kenza 1]

Sorry this is way off topic and I would appreciate an unbiased answer but in Islam cousins are allowed to marry and according to California law they are allowed too. Well I married my cousin (my choice and it wasn't as if we grew up together like a sterotypical cousin) and with the visa process I have done everything to avoid suspicion of him being my cousin for example saying that my dad is his father in law rather than uncle, etc. However I had to write his mother's name which is the same as my last name and I guess my question is do you think this will delay our case in any way? Jazakalakhairun

[Time2gopeacefully 0]

Sorry this is way off topic and I would appreciate an unbiased answer but in Islam cousins are allowed to marry and according to California law they are allowed too. Well I married my cousin (my choice and it wasn't as if we grew up together like a sterotypical cousin) and with the visa process I have done everything to avoid suspicion of him being my cousin for example saying that my dad is his father in law rather than uncle, etc. However I had to write his mother's name which is the same as my last name and I guess my question is do you think this will delay our case in any way? Jazakalakhairun

As long as your marriage is true and you have all the proper documents then you should not have any problem. You don't have to hide that fact!

I met some people with similar case to yours:) they are here in the US!

[Kenza 1]

Sorry this is way off topic and I would appreciate an unbiased answer but in Islam cousins are allowed to marry and according to California law they are allowed too. Well I married my cousin (my choice and it wasn't as if we grew up together like a sterotypical cousin) and with the visa process I have done everything to avoid suspicion of him being my cousin for example saying that my dad is his father in law rather than uncle, etc. However I had to write his mother's name which is the same as my last name and I guess my question is do you think this will delay our case in any way? Jazakalakhairun

As long as your marriage is true and you have all the proper documents then you should not have any problem. You don't have to hide that fact!

I met some people with similar case to yours:) they are here in the US!

OK that's good to know thanks...It's just here where I live it's no where near normal or accepted and I have always been reluctant to say it.

[KHPerfectMatch 1]

Jesus had a temper, and a violent side, and the Prophet Muhammed was admonished by God for being a wuss when it came to his wives, who sometimes drove him to exasperation.

Where did you get the information you have about the "violent side" of Jesus, pbuh. I know of the one incident recorded in the Bible where he raised his voice and raised a rope in his hand when speaking out against evil, admonishing the money changers doing business in the Temple, and telling them to leave it. But I've never heard anyone describe Jesus as having a "violent side" in all of my life...

[KHPerfectMatch 1]

I'm really fascinated that apparently no one on this list disagrees (except me) with the notion that women simply studying Islam don't need to practice all aspects of the religion in ADVANCE of taking their shahada. Is that the new way to become Muslim? (Try it on and see if it fits before you buy it - theory)

I'd love to hear the stories of how following all the required practices of Islam before you took your shahada influenced your decision to revert.

I know how difficult it is for women who HAVE reverted to follow all of these mandatory practices, so please tell me where you found the courage to do it before. Also, were you instructed to do so? And by whom? Your husband/fiance? The Muslims you studied with? Or????

How do you answer questions when people ask you why you wear hijab and you aren't Muslim???? How do your coworkers react when you wear it and tell them you aren't Muslim? Have your employers given you a place to pray at work when you tell them you aren't Muslim and just want to try it out? Do you follow ALL the rules in this phase or just try out certain ones?

Maybe this explains why Muslims see women in hijab and still ask "are you Muslim"????

[chaishai 1]

I'm really fascinated that apparently no one on this list disagrees (except me) with the notion that women simply studying Islam don't need to practice all aspects of the religion in ADVANCE of taking their shahada. Is that the new way to become Muslim? (Try it on and see if it fits before you buy it - theory)

I'd love to hear the stories of how following all the required practices of Islam before you took your shahada influenced your decision to revert.

I know how difficult it is for women who HAVE reverted to follow all of these mandatory practices, so please tell me where you found the courage to do it before. Also, were you instructed to do so? And by whom? Your husband/fiance? The Muslims you studied with? Or????

How do you answer questions when people ask you why you wear hijab and you aren't Muslim???? How do your coworkers react when you wear it and tell them you aren't Muslim? Have your employers given you a place to pray at work when you tell them you aren't Muslim and just want to try it out? Do you follow ALL the rules in this phase or just try out certain ones?

Maybe this explains why Muslims see women in hijab and still ask "are you Muslim"????

Im not muslim, but thought I would add this perspective. People studying to convert to orthodox judaism actually must and do practice everything for an extended period of time prior to converting. The idea is that you need to understand what you are committing to and the only way to really understand is to live it every day. I personally think that when studying, you would adopt things as you are studying until eventually you were following everything and then you lived that way for a period of time to really understand.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Jesus had a temper, and a violent side, and the Prophet Muhammed was admonished by God for being a wuss when it came to his wives, who sometimes drove him to exasperation.

Where did you get the information you have about the "violent side" of Jesus, pbuh. I know of the one incident recorded in the Bible where he raised his voice and raised a rope in his hand when speaking out against evil, admonishing the money changers doing business in the Temple, and telling them to leave it. But I've never heard anyone describe Jesus as having a "violent side" in all of my life...

For Christians, Jesus is God, and the One God of monotheistic Christianity is eternal; He has no beginning and no end. So, that means that Jesus is the God of the OT as well as the personification of God in the NT. They are the same entity, and neither began anew with Mary's virgin birth, nor ended with the crucifixion. Therefore, the God who destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, wiped out general population in the Great Flood, delivered plagues, locusts and droughts to show His displeasure, and the kinder, gentler Jesus Christ are one and the same.

[Ahmed N Tina 2]

Not for all Christians. Most Christians believe in the trinity, God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, therefore separating them. In this theory, Jesus is then NOT God, but part of the Godhead. Therefore, again, not the same being who destroyed, wiped out, flooded or any of the other items listed. It is frequently discussed that "Jesus" was referred to in the OT as "the Word of God", again separating Him from God, and the punishments given due to the sin committed at that time.

I have no desire to be part of the argument, but wanted to clear up that, in my opinion, generalization.

[childress_london 3]

I agree. I am Christian and I do not believe Jesus is God. All Christians do not all necessarily believe the same things. :-P

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Not for all Christians. Most Christians believe in the trinity, God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, therefore separating them. In this theory, Jesus is then NOT God, but part of the Godhead. Therefore, again, not the same being who destroyed, wiped out, flooded or any of the other items listed. It is frequently discussed that "Jesus" was referred to in the OT as "the Word of God", again separating Him from God, and the punishments given due to the sin committed at that time.

I have no desire to be part of the argument, but wanted to clear up that, in my opinion, generalization.

True, the sects of Christianity vary in their understanding of the Trinity. Some teach that there are 3 separate Gods, some that there is one God with 3 essences. One need consider the nuance in each interpretation.

[Ihavequestions 419]

Not for all Christians. Most Christians believe in the trinity, God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, therefore separating them. In this theory, Jesus is then NOT God, but part of the Godhead. Therefore, again, not the same being who destroyed, wiped out, flooded or any of the other items listed. It is frequently discussed that "Jesus" was referred to in the OT as "the Word of God", again separating Him from God, and the punishments given due to the sin committed at that time.

I have no desire to be part of the argument, but wanted to clear up that, in my opinion, generalization.

True, the sects of Christianity vary in their understanding of the Trinity. Some teach that there are 3 separate Gods, some that there is one God with 3 essences. One need consider the nuance in each interpretation.

No, that's not true. There is only one God, across the board, to each of the more than 2,400 different types of Christians.

One.

Never more than one.

[UmmSqueakster 54]

I simply suggested that since Tina hasn't concluded that she no longer believes in the tenents of the faith in which she was raised, (a faith that doesn't require her to remove nail polish in order to pray), that until she believes in Islam, and choses to revert there is no need for her to struggle with issues related to performing wudu.

I was speaking to Tina from the perspective that she had converted to Islam, but even if she hasn't, my advice is still the same. She had a question about nail polish and salat, so deserves to know what the fuqaha have to say about it. She didn't ask how her current faith views nail polish.

If you were speaking about her making shahada when you were speaking about believing in her heart, then there was a misunderstanding. Just taking your post on face value, to me it seemed that you were advising people to only follow the tenents of islam that they believed in their heart. This is the wishy washy relativism VW was speaking of. If that is not what you were saying, then I apologize for getting it wrong.

Before someone can take on a new religion, they have to leave the "old one" behind... Especially if you were raised like Tina and I were.... You can't go to home plate with your foot still firmly planted on 3rd base... You must step OFF before you STEP ON.

And there is an ORDER in which you submerge yourself into your new faith! That's why the 5 pillars come in an order! Haj doesn't come before Shahada!!!!

Once shahada is made, then all 5 pillars are incumbant. If you convert to islam during zuhr prayer, you're suppose to pray zuhr prayer before the time is over. If you convert to islam during Ramadan, you're suppose to start fasting that very day. And once you convert, you should inventory your wealth and begin to give zakat. Hajj is the only one where there is a little bit more leniancy, at least for the shafi'is.

Yes Islam is comprisedof all 3 things, and they come in a logical order: Starting with: Iman (faith) FOLLOWED BY: Islam (submission)and FINALLY: Ihsan (charitable acts) 2 of the 3 have almost nothing to do with the RULES! (OK OK, zakat is a "rule" and it is ihsan) And this is exactly what I was saying to Tina... submission (rule following) without belief (or faith to believe) is hollow and in my opinion futile in the long run. Don't put the cart before the horse!

Actually, Jibreel (as) asked the Prophet (saws) first about Islam, then Iman, and then Ihsan. Once one makes shahada (which is both islam and iman), they work on all three.

Also, where do you get that ihsan is charitable acts? I've never seen it described that way. According to the Prophet (saws), Ihsan is "to worship God as though you see Him, and if you cannot see Him, then indeed He sees you." It is perfection of our acts of worship. Giving charity is an act of worship, but it's hardly the only one.

Islam requires Muslims to discuss religion ONLY WITH THE BEST of MANNERS. And this should extend from Muslim to Muslim, not only Muslim to Non-Muslim.

I'm sure those who react with PIOUS VENOM to anything they read and don't either understand or agree with might not realize that their lack of manners (adab) weakens any possibility they have of impressing anyone with their claimed "knowledge"... if the person listening has the foggiest notion of how Muslims are SUPPOSED to act.

When you're giving advice to others, it's best also to follow it yourself. When you type in all caps, that's considered yelling, which isn't the best adab either