Muslims

[merijan 0]

I read this thread, but rarely post. However, this post caught my eye. I, too, have been concerned about the concept of "Islam is whatever is in our hearts" for some time, as repeated on this board. Islam is an organized religion with tenets, traditions, texts and established methodologies for forming interpretations. It is a legalistic faith. with rules, boundaries and absolutes, although they may not always be agreed on. Some are legislated in the Quran, and, through the Prophetic traditions. Some have developed over time though fiqh determinations.

Islam is also a faith that require thought and consideration, for the Quran counsels against blind following, and also teaches that one's acts are one's rewards or burdens. While it is possible to disagree over interpretations, daleel (evidence) is required to support one's position. "I believe it in my heart" is not credible support in opposition to legitimate, if flawed, opinion. I cringe every time I read someone posting that, and have had more than my share of disagreements about it here and IRL. "Believing in your heart" is a form of moral relativism that has no foundation in Islam. It is offensive to more knowledable adherents and students of the faith, so, I strongly counsel against its usage in individual practice and guidance of others. We can and will debate points in Islamic tenets and practice, but should do so in keeping with proper scholarship and with the very best intentions, whatever you decide.

Mark this day on your calendar ya'll. If VW and I agree on something, it's gotta be big.

We probably agree on more than you realize. The reason why I decided not to post in this thread on a regular basis is because I can see that the needs and emphasis of many converts or those contemplating conversion tend to be different than someone who was born into Islam and who has practiced and studied it all their life, as I have. My sources and answers tend to be more esoteric then what is sought, and my emphasis less basic than that of beginners, who lean toward seeking "safe" approval from those viewed as "authentic" within their specific Muslim communities. No offense intended to anyone.

I was just wondering where you studied at , Islamic studies? In some ways you are right in that when you first convert to Islam it can seem overwhelming if you try to take everything in all at once. Its a step by step thing. And of coarse NOBODY even Islamic Scholars can say they have stopped learning. One thing I have learned is that every Muslim has a different stage in life that they are in. Like a stair case some are at the top and some at the bottom waiting to climb. Those in between help others along. So we should all seek knowledge and never stop trying to grow in our deen.

[Aymsgirl 0]

I read this thread, but rarely post. However, this post caught my eye. I, too, have been concerned about the concept of "Islam is whatever is in our hearts" for some time, as repeated on this board. Islam is an organized religion with tenets, traditions, texts and established methodologies for forming interpretations. It is a legalistic faith. with rules, boundaries and absolutes, although they may not always be agreed on. Some are legislated in the Quran, and, through the Prophetic traditions. Some have developed over time though fiqh determinations.

Islam is also a faith that require thought and consideration, for the Quran counsels against blind following, and also teaches that one's acts are one's rewards or burdens. While it is possible to disagree over interpretations, daleel (evidence) is required to support one's position. "I believe it in my heart" is not credible support in opposition to legitimate, if flawed, opinion. I cringe every time I read someone posting that, and have had more than my share of disagreements about it here and IRL. "Believing in your heart" is a form of moral relativism that has no foundation in Islam. It is offensive to more knowledable adherents and students of the faith, so, I strongly counsel against its usage in individual practice and guidance of others. We can and will debate points in Islamic tenets and practice, but should do so in keeping with proper scholarship and with the very best intentions, whatever you decide.

Mark this day on your calendar ya'll. If VW and I agree on something, it's gotta be big.

We probably agree on more than you realize. The reason why I decided not to post in this thread on a regular basis is because I can see that the needs and emphasis of many converts or those contemplating conversion tend to be different than someone who was born into Islam and who has practiced and studied it all their life, as I have. My sources and answers tend to be more esoteric then what is sought, and my emphasis less basic than that of beginners, who lean toward seeking "safe" approval from those viewed as "authentic" within their specific Muslim communities. No offense intended to anyone.

I was just wondering where you studied at , Islamic studies? In some ways you are right in that when you first convert to Islam it can seem overwhelming if you try to take everything in all at once. Its a step by step thing. And of coarse NOBODY even Islamic Scholars can say they have stopped learning. One thing I have learned is that every Muslim has a different stage in life that they are in. Like a stair case some are at the top and some at the bottom waiting to climb. Those in between help others along. So we should all seek knowledge and never stop trying to grow in our deen.

You are so right Merijan. I remember thinking so many rules, so many rules...I would totally exhaust my mind and now I just go with the flow and when I learn try to learn how or plan how or when I will implement. I like the structure in Islam but there is so much education that you can do to help further your deen. Love it!

[Kenza 1]

Speaking of learning new things and I'm sorry if this has already been discussed and I kind of already know the answer but...I grew up here in America where having a pet is for the most part, a part of the family what is your view about dogs? We had one when I was young for 8 years and recently died last year and I miss having a dog but there's the hadith that says no dogs but others ok....??????

[Aymsgirl 0]

Kenza....we had hugeeeee issues with this in our home. I have a daughter from my previous marriage that had this little Shihtzu since she was a few years old. She loved this little dog to death. To her he was part of the family. Well, my husband tolerated the dog as much as he could. He taught the dog to not go into our room where he prayed. The dog was no longer allowed on the couch either. Well, our dog started becoming jealous of my husband. I am not joking when I tell you it was something out of a comedy at times. The dog would sit on the couch like a king until he heard my husband come around the corner in the living room and he would jump down. Well, hubby said it totally grossed him out and he felt like he lived in filth. The dog started having bathroom issues due to some health problems and our biggest fight came on about the dog. He said that I allowed my kids to love an animal like a human and he totally disagreed. I can't even explain how bad things got over the dog. Well, Allah knew what he was doing because he took Pooh Bear out of the situation when he got sick and died shortly after. My husband kept showing me things about dogs and why we shouldn't have one and how it takes away from your goods for owning one other than for security reasons. Although, I found it a hard pill to swallow and argued back with him I realize things now after the issue was resolved that he was saying.

[KHPerfectMatch 1]

No offense intended to anyone.

You don't even know the context of my post to Tina... but don't let that stop you from just JUMPING ON IN THERE and bustin' my chops.... without even thinking there might be more to this than YOU KNOW!

Spare me the lecture.... Spare Dear Tina the lecture! Can you at LEAST wait until she reverts before you whack people over the head with your "holier than thou" attitude and 10# bag of LEGALISM???? I am so deeply saddened that you portray yourself as the SUPER MUSLIMAH... while bashing and thrashing around with your judgements and always maintaining your harsh and judgemental ways. Of course from previous experience I know that I bring out the BEST in you... Khaf Allah!

So you recommend that non-Muslims start practicing Islam BEFORE they revert????? Should they see if they can follow all the RULES before they revert????? Since the rules are so important... and if they find they can't follow rules of a religion they don't even BELONG TO, then what should they do? Is this to prevent apostasy? Or? This seems like putting the cart before the horse!

Personally I think BELIEF should come first... but what do I know... I wasn't BORN MUSLIM like you... I am absolutely bowled over by your minimization of the importance of BELIEF and high regard for LEGALISM..... Sad, very sad indeed....

I am sorry Tina and all the sisters on this thread. It was never my intention to post something that would set off VW. I should have known she would go Jihadi on me... not my first experience with the WRATH of VW, and it's happened to MANY before ME (thus the laughing about her "no offense" statement) and I predict it will CONTINUE to happen to MANY AFTER me... Question is.... why? Sad, very sad indeed...

Edited March 6, 2009 by KHPerfectMatch

[Aymsgirl 0]

Honestly, nobody offended me here. I just let the two of you hash it out yourselves and let it be on both of your consciousness of who did wrong and who did right. I'm not to judge and if I felt misled I will search myself and I am sure that Tina will as well. I know a lot of do our own research and do not just go on what VW or anybody else says. It's our personal responsibility to find the truth in our own way.

Now, let's get back to some talking here about hadiths....Kenza had the dog questions......Kenza...I've read it where dogs shouldn't be used other than for security purposes but I see your point. I read something once for new converts with animals already and it was kind of wishy washy. What have you found that you read where it was not ok and then ok?

Edited March 6, 2009 by Aymsgirl

[UmmSqueakster 54]

Lord knows I've disagreed with VW on a number of occasions, but in this situation, she's spot on. Islam IS a faith of rules, and if someone is considering converting to Islam, they should be well aware of that fact ahead of time.

In the famous hadith jibreel, we find that the religion is composed of 3 things - islam, iman and ihsan. It's not made up simply of the rules, nor is it simply made up of faith. It's a balance between these three things. If you have one without the other, your religion isn't complete. I'd venture to posit that a lot of the problems facing the muslim world are because of an imbalance of these three things.

re: dogs as pets, I'm not a dog person, so I've never had a need to look deeply into this issue. Now cats on the other hand, I'm all over

Dogs in the hanafi school <-- I'm pretty sure the shafi'is come to their conclusions via the same sources

Dogs in the maliki school <-- Imam Malik differed from the other mujtahid imams. While they maintained that the dog's saliva was impure, Imam Malik holds it's pure. However, this wasn't a blanket blessing to keep dogs. They were not to be kept as pets, only for hunting and guarding property.

The general non madhab ruling is that it's impermissible as well.

On a related noted, keeping guide dogs is permissable.

[Ahmed N Tina 2]

Not offended here, by anyone. I understand where both posts are coming from and appreciate the time it has taken to post them. I am still learning, a lot, but this isn't the only place I come to for that learning. Like Tasha said, I'm doing my own research as I can as well. My husband has also been a fabulous help in this.

KH and I come from the same religious background, so I totally get where she is coming from in what she said. I'll just leave it at that.

So what about cats? I had two when I got married and hubby said to get rid of them (I'm very allergic to them), but now he's said he's thinking we can get another one. But he wants a dog bad!

[UmmSqueakster 54]

I come from a liberal protestant tradition who's founder said "sin boldly, but believe bolder still." There was a lot more emphasis on Jesus (as) as a buddy, friend and savior than on dos and don'ts. Islam is a big change, but at it's heart, it's about submitting to God as His slave, and once we grasp this, inshaAllah it's easier to follow what He's asked of us.

Ah kitties, how I *heart* them. I'm a shafi'i for the most part, but their rules of cats makes it very difficult to keep a cat, IMHO. When the cat sheds, the hair is considered impure, because it's like a dead unslaughtered animal. A small amount of hair is excusable, but since my cat sheds buckets, everytime I'd pray, I would need to change clothes and pray in a room she isn't allowed in. Since I want to make praying as easy as possible (ie get rid of any excuse to skip it), I take the hanafi dispensation. In the hanafi school, cat hair is pure. So, even when I'm covered in cat hair (which is my usual state at home), I can pray.

Here's an interesting article on cats in islamic culture. Abu Huraira (ra) was one of the companions of the prophet (saws) and a narrator of many hadith. His name means "father of the kitten."

[Aymsgirl 0]

I come from a liberal protestant tradition who's founder said "sin boldly, but believe bolder still." There was a lot more emphasis on Jesus (as) as a buddy, friend and savior than on dos and don'ts. Islam is a big change, but at it's heart, it's about submitting to God as His slave, and once we grasp this, inshaAllah it's easier to follow what He's asked of us.

Ah kitties, how I *heart* them. I'm a shafi'i for the most part, but their rules of cats makes it very difficult to keep a cat, IMHO. When the cat sheds, the hair is considered impure, because it's like a dead unslaughtered animal. A small amount of hair is excusable, but since my cat sheds buckets, everytime I'd pray, I would need to change clothes and pray in a room she isn't allowed in. Since I want to make praying as easy as possible (ie get rid of any excuse to skip it), I take the hanafi dispensation. In the hanafi school, cat hair is pure. So, even when I'm covered in cat hair (which is my usual state at home), I can pray.

Here's an interesting article on cats in islamic culture. Abu Huraira (ra) was one of the companions of the prophet (saws) and a narrator of many hadith. His name means "father of the kitten."

Thank you so much for always posting the different school of thoughts.

Edited March 6, 2009 by Aymsgirl

[UmmSqueakster 54]

Thank you so much for always posting the different school of thoughts.

You're welcome

More on cats. The husband did not want a spayed/neutered kitty. He believes it's cruel to deprive an animal of their natural urges. Alhamdulilah, we adopted from the local humane society, where all the cats come spayed/neutered, so we didn't have to argue about that one too much.

However, there is evidence that it is permissible to spay/neuter your kitty:

Compound Cats Neutering Page

Is it permissible to neuter a cat?

Basically, it's permissible to spay/neuter your pet if there is benefit in it. From what I've read, female cats who are spayed before their first heat are generally healthier then those who have gone through heat. In addition, millions of pets are euthenized by shelters each year because there aren't enough homes for them. By spaying/neutering, you're helping the over population problem.

[Aymsgirl 0]

Thank you so much for always posting the different school of thoughts.

You're welcome

More on cats. The husband did not want a spayed/neutered kitty. He believes it's cruel to deprive an animal of their natural urges. Alhamdulilah, we adopted from the local humane society, where all the cats come spayed/neutered, so we didn't have to argue about that one too much.

However, there is evidence that it is permissible to spay/neuter your kitty:

Compound Cats Neutering Page

Is it permissible to neuter a cat?

Basically, it's permissible to spay/neuter your pet if there is benefit in it. From what I've read, female cats who are spayed before their first heat are generally healthier then those who have gone through heat. In addition, millions of pets are euthenized by shelters each year because there aren't enough homes for them. By spaying/neutering, you're helping the over population problem.

I just had Amirah spayed this past Monday. I took her to Sisca..not sure if any of you have one of those in your area. They were great. I found out that when she went on her 5 day escapade she was pregnant but didn't know until after they had fixed her.

[Ahmed N Tina 2]

Thank you so much for always posting the different school of thoughts.

You're welcome

More on cats. The husband did not want a spayed/neutered kitty. He believes it's cruel to deprive an animal of their natural urges. Alhamdulilah, we adopted from the local humane society, where all the cats come spayed/neutered, so we didn't have to argue about that one too much.

However, there is evidence that it is permissible to spay/neuter your kitty:

Compound Cats Neutering Page

Is it permissible to neuter a cat?

Basically, it's permissible to spay/neuter your pet if there is benefit in it. From what I've read, female cats who are spayed before their first heat are generally healthier then those who have gone through heat. In addition, millions of pets are euthenized by shelters each year because there aren't enough homes for them. By spaying/neutering, you're helping the over population problem.

Ditto! Great info!

[Kenza 1]

I agree with neutering your cat! My kitty is spayed

and about dogs, this is the main argument that I have heard from keeping a dog in the house

Sayyidna Abu Talha (Radhiyallaahu Ánhu) reports that Rasulullah (Sallallaaahu Álayhi Wasallam) said, "Angels do not enter a house wherein there is a dog or an animate picture. (Sahih Bukhari Hadith no. 2986)

and I agree that this issue is always debated and was wondering what your thoughts are.

My dog was a dalmation and he wasn't allowed upstaires or on couches and was a great guard dog...so...in what conditions is it acceptable?

may Allah Swt guide us to the right path and forgive us for our misunderstanding ameen.

[KHPerfectMatch 1]

Lord knows I've disagreed with VW on a number of occasions, but in this situation, she's spot on. Islam IS a faith of rules, and if someone is considering converting to Islam, they should be well aware of that fact ahead of time.

In the famous hadith jibreel, we find that the religion is composed of 3 things - islam, iman and ihsan. It's not made up simply of the rules, nor is it simply made up of faith. It's a balance between these three things. If you have one without the other, your religion isn't complete. I'd venture to posit that a lot of the problems facing the muslim world are because of an imbalance of these three things.

She may be on a spot, I just don't see which spot she is on....

#1 I never said that rules don't have any place in Islam, obviously for Muslims they do! Tina is not a Muslim, she is learning/studying Islam.

#2 My post was not about "awareness of rules" for people considering conversion.

Of course people should learn about the "rules" of any faith they are studying, in contemplation of conversion! That's not rocket science... There's a big difference in studying rules and applying them PRIOR to reverting!

I simply suggested that since Tina hasn't concluded that she no longer believes in the tenents of the faith in which she was raised, (a faith that doesn't require her to remove nail polish in order to pray), that until she believes in Islam, and choses to revert there is no need for her to struggle with issues related to performing wudu.

Before someone can take on a new religion, they have to leave the "old one" behind... Especially if you were raised like Tina and I were.... You can't go to home plate with your foot still firmly planted on 3rd base... You must step OFF before you STEP ON.

And there is an ORDER in which you submerge yourself into your new faith! That's why the 5 pillars come in an order! Haj doesn't come before Shahada!!!!

Yes Islam is comprisedof all 3 things, and they come in a logical order: Starting with: Iman (faith) FOLLOWED BY: Islam (submission)and FINALLY: Ihsan (charitable acts) 2 of the 3 have almost nothing to do with the RULES! (OK OK, zakat is a "rule" and it is ihsan) And this is exactly what I was saying to Tina... submission (rule following) without belief (or faith to believe) is hollow and in my opinion futile in the long run. Don't put the cart before the horse!

And I wholeheartedly concur that the lack of balance is a HUGE problem... in fact I'd venture to say that balance isn't even the right term, absence might be more accurate, or MIA... Simple acts of kindness, patience, mercy, compassion, gentleness and good manners are nearly non-existent. Muslim "Pharisees and Sadducees" ABOUND!

The first thing EVERYONE wants to "teach the new revert" is the RULES! In fact most of the ones teaching the new reverts (typically the "Genuine BORN A MUSLIM ROLE MODELS") ONLY know the RULES.... The entire spirit of Islam is LOST ON THEM. But they can tell you every rule and OOPS UP SIDE YOUR HEAD if you dare to even question the history or logic behind a rule.. (which they likley don't know or care to know...)

Islam requires Muslims to discuss religion ONLY WITH THE BEST of MANNERS. And this should extend from Muslim to Muslim, not only Muslim to Non-Muslim.

I'm sure those who react with PIOUS VENOM to anything they read and don't either understand or agree with might not realize that their lack of manners (adab) weakens any possibility they have of impressing anyone with their claimed "knowledge"... if the person listening has the foggiest notion of how Muslims are SUPPOSED to act.

In the case of VW the foul language she has used in the past has made me conclude that while she may spend alot of time strictly following rules... it isn't enough to make me give ANY creedence to her posts. I just see her avatar and think "consider the source" and move on.