christian and muslim family

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Turkey “not reforming Islam, but itself” with hadith review

Posted by: Tom Heneghan

Ali Bardakoglu, Turkey’s top religious official, says his country’s effort to purge the hadith of sexism and superstition is not an attempt to reform Islam but to change the Turkish way of practising it. This reform project hit the headlines this week when the BBC ran a story on what it called “a revolutionary reinterpretation of Islam - and a controversial and radical modernisation of the religion“. It said the revision of the hadith, the collection of the sayings of the Prophet Mohammad that are second only to the Koran as an authority for Muslims, was something akin to a Protestant Reformation in Islam.

Reacting to those reports, Bardakoglu, who is chairman of the Department of Religious Affairs, told the daily Sabah: “A team of 80 are scanning all existent hadith. For example, words humiliating women are attributed to the prophets. We are combing through such interpretations. We will publish six volumes. However, what we are doing is not reform on Islam… we are not reforming Islam; we are reforming ourselves, our own way of religiosity.” ‘

His deputy Mehmet Görmez told another daily, Zaman, that the BBC’s interpretation of the reform as a “radical modernisation” was wrong, saying: “We are going to take the appropriate legal measures for redress.”

What’s up? Are we talking about a revolution in Islam here? Well, not quite. The aim is to publish a revised collection of hadith to be used in Turkey as a reference work for fatwas and other work of religious interpretation. The scholars are using modern methods of interpretation of the hadith to assess their validity, an approach that conservative scholars reject. But this is not a reinterpretation of the Koran, the absolute centre of authority. Islamic exegesis gets revolutionary when it is turned towards deconstructing the Koran, which Muslims believe is the literal word of Allah.

This project is not going there. It follows in a tradition of assessing and classifying hadith that dates back to the early days of the faith. So Bardakoglu and Görmez had no problem saying the project was not reforming Islam. The rejected hadith will not disappear; they’ll still be on the books in many other Muslim countries. But Turkey’s state-approved religious establishment won’t use them.

This is an updating of some aspects of Islam, though, and Bardakoglu and Görmez probably played that down so they don’t ruffle too many conservative feathers. The project is weeding out some hadith that Turkish Islam scholars say were written down long after the Prophet’s death and are little more than handed-down hearsay. These doubtful passages often contradict other sayings of Mohammad or express views that don’t jibe with his. The goal is “to convey the universal message of the Prophet Mohammed to the 21st century“, the Directorate of Religious Affairs (Diyanet) said in a statement on Thursday.

The project was well described two years ago in this Washington Post article by Mustafa Akyol, who gave a few examples of passages due to be cut:

“Women are imperfect in intellect and religion.”

“The best of women are those who are like sheep.”

“If a woman doesn’t satisfy her husband’s desires, she should choose herself a place in hell.”

“If a husband’s body is covered with pus and his wife licks it clean, she still wouldn’t have paid her dues.”

“Your prayer will be invalid if a donkey, black dog or a woman passes in front of you.”

Felix Körner, a German Jesuit priest at Ankara University, is quoted in many of the reports. He has been studying the “Ankara School” of modern Islamic theology for several years and published a book about it in 2005 called Revisionist Koran Hermeneutics in Contemporary Turkish University Theology. Note the adjective “revisionist” — not revolutionary or radical.

Ali Eteraz, who has written a lot on reform in Islam, has trashed this effort as “fool’s gold” because he sees it mostly as the state meddling in religious affairs: “In my mind, this initiative has more to do with Turkey’s AKP party trying to get into the European Union. “Look, we threw out all the bad hadith,” it seems to be saying. “Now let us in! … Ultimately, this entire hadith affair represents an attempt on the part of Turkey to “nationalise” its Islam. Nothing more.”

Politics plays a part (Diyanet is a government body, after all) but this is not primarily a ploy to fool Brussels. Ali’s right that the Turkish state is meddling in Islam and that the idea of invalidating some hadith is nothing new. His opposition to having a state lead the reform effort is understandable. And yes, some coverage of the reform got pretty excited. Still, this reform reflects a broader trend of reinterpreting texts in Islam and the wider effect of it being endorsed by the religious authorities shouldn’t be underestimated. Many Muslim thinkers want a more modern interpretation of Islam — a lot of them are here in France — but this is regularly blocked by conservative religious establishments. Change on this front will only come step by step, and even a state authority like Diyanet can make some of it happen.

[Ban Hammer 13,342]

Help urself.

Traditionally, only in one case can a Muslim woman marry outside of Islam, and this is the case where the woman is guilty of sexual transgression, as denoted in Sura An Nur of the Qur'an: "The adulterer may marry only an adulteress or an idolatress; and the adulteress may marry only an adulterer or an idolater…" [24:3] As stated in this verse, this rule equally applies to the Muslim man who is guilty of this same offense.

you make it sound like hotel california.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Help urself.

Traditionally, only in one case can a Muslim woman marry outside of Islam, and this is the case where the woman is guilty of sexual transgression, as denoted in Sura An Nur of the Qur'an: "The adulterer may marry only an adulteress or an idolatress; and the adulteress may marry only an adulterer or an idolater…" [24:3] As stated in this verse, this rule equally applies to the Muslim man who is guilty of this same offense.

you make it sound like hotel california.

Some Muslims believe the only thing to be done with an adulterer is to stone them to death. No point in marrying a non-Muslim if you're scheduled to be stoned.

[Sabr 0]

As-salamu'alaykum,

Mushirk = anyone who worships other than Allah.

Is this definition correct? If it is then anyone who worships Isa (pbuh) has committed shirk. Or if a person subscribes to the trinity (Father Son and Holy Ghost and these 3 are 1) they had ascribed partners with Allah and therefore becomes a mushirk.

I'm assuming your husband of 30 years was/is a Unitarian? If not you have broken Allah's law.

wa salam

Alaykum Salaam,

A musrik is someone who worships more than one god, a polytheist. The Quran distinguishes Christians and Jews from musrikeen and kafir many times. Since Allah forbids Muslims, male or female, from marriage with mushrikeen and kafir, but allows marriage between Muslims, Christians and Jews, they cannot be mushrikeen or kafir just by being non-Muslim.

One thing to keep in mind is that on the Day of Judgment, Allah will decide who has followed Him and who has not. Merely considering oneself to be Muslim is no guarantee that one wil enter jannah (heaven). Merely considering oneself to be otherwise is no condemnation.

Allah says that there will be Christians and Jews in heaven, and those among the Muslims who will not. Q2:62 is one of several ayah that express this intent: Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. - Yusef Ali transliteration

Verily, those who have attained to faith [in this divine writ], as well as those who follow the Jewish faith, and the Christians, and the Sabeans - all who believe in God and the Last Day and do righteous deeds - shall have their reward with their Sustainer; and no fear need they have, and neither shall they grieve. - Muhammad Asad transliteration

Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and Christians, and Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve. - M.H. Shakir transliteration

Allah also says He has purposely made us believe differently so that we will learn how to live together in His Name.

5:48 To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah. it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute; - Yusef Ali transliteration

I have no regret about having married a Christian man. He was set onto my path by the Divine, and I do not question such an allowance from Allah, who is far wiser than I. Since Allah has no law forbidding interfaith marriage between Muslimas and ahl al kitab men, I have broken no law. I have been blessed with His favor in marriage many more times than I deserve.

Salam alaykom,

Im so glad to hear of the success of your long term marriage with your husband. There are wonderful people in every religion al-hamdulallah. If I were to break the laws of my Islam and chose to marry a Mushrik lady I would opt for a Hindu or non-Zionist Jewish woman rather than a Christian because I tend to get along better with them. But, alas sometimes love chooses us.

In fact I was at a friend’s house for supper and he was temporarily housing some Coptic Christian refugees. After finding out I was Muslim the Coptics refused to set at the table with me.

Coming back to the matter at hand.

You have quoted some translated verses from the Holy Quran depicting how Allah (the Most High) describes Christians and Jews. People of the Book (Ale Kittab). But for a comparison we also need Allah’s description of the Mushirk (those who join partners with Him).

Here are a few to get us started.

Quran Adh Dayryat And make not another an object of worship with Allah: I am from Him a Warner to you, clear and open! Yusuf Ali

Quran An-Nisa “Surely Allah does not forgive that anything should be associated with Him, and forgives what is besides that to whomsoever He pleases; and whoever associates anything with Allah, he devises indeed a great sin. Shakr.

Quran An-Nisa Serve Allah, and join not any partners with Him; and do good- to parents, kinsfolk, orphans, those in need, neighbors who are near, neighbors who are strangers, the companion by your side, the wayfarer (ye meet), and what your right hands possess: For Allah loves not the arrogant, the vainglorious;- Yusuf Ali

Quran Al-Anam Follow what thou art taught by inspiration from thy Lord: there is no god but He: and turn aside from those who join gods with Allah. Yusuf Ali

Quran Al-Maeda They do blaspheme who say: "Allah is Christ the son of Mary." But said Christ: "O Children of Israel! worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with Allah,- Allah will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help. Yusuf Ali

Many Christians of our modern times would fit comfortably under this umbrella. In fact within the catechisms of most all the main sects of Christianity today we find within the foundation of their beliefs what the call “The Trinity.” God+Jesus+ Holy Ghost. This was not widespread in the time of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) but was a later addition to Christianity. Some people think it came from the pagan religion of Mithraism (Mithra+Sertulus+Solenvitacus). Pls. excuse my spelling -- its been many years since I studied these things. Other Christian and historical scholars wager it was from Hinduism. (Brama+Vishnu+Shiva).

This association of partners with Allah (the Most High) by Christians in spite of the fact that they claim to be monotheists, according to Allah, are in fact Mushrikoon and fall outside the fold of Islam. On the other hand, there are a few, I was one before I became a Muslim, who claimed to believe in the Trinity yet in my heart I despised the notion.

So then,

If a Muslim wishes to marry a Christian in keeping with the laws in the Quran they should make an effort to be sure the Christian is not joining partners with Allah. Since we have no access to the contents of the heart we have to take them at their word.

Salam wa barakallah

[Scott & Lai 12]

Many Christians of our modern times would fit comfortably under this umbrella. In fact within the catechisms of most all the main sects of Christianity today we find within the foundation of their beliefs what the call “The Trinity.” God+Jesus+ Holy Ghost. This was not widespread in the time of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) but was a later addition to Christianity. Some people think it came from the pagan religion of Mithraism (Mithra+Sertulus+Solenvitacus). Pls. excuse my spelling -- its been many years since I studied these things. Other Christian and historical scholars wager it was from Hinduism. (Brama+Vishnu+Shiva).

This association of partners with Allah (the Most High) by Christians in spite of the fact that they claim to be monotheists, according to Allah, are in fact Mushrikoon and fall outside the fold of Islam. On the other hand, there are a few, I was one before I became a Muslim, who claimed to believe in the Trinity yet in my heart I despised the notion.

So then,

If a Muslim wishes to marry a Christian in keeping with the laws in the Quran they should make an effort to be sure the Christian is not joining partners with Allah. Since we have no access to the contents of the heart we have to take them at their word.

Salam wa barakallah

The Christian doctrine of the Trinity has nothing to do with either Hinduism or Mithraism. It was formalized by the early fifth century, long before the time of Muhammad, but the doctrine itself comes from the teachings of the Apostles and the words of Jesus himself as recorded in the Gospels. The Trinity is not God + two partners with God (Jesus + the Holy Ghost), as you have put it. It is the One God (the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob) who is one is essence, but three in person; The Father, the Son (Jesus) and the Holy Spirit, each of whom is fully God and distinct from each other in person, yet they are not three Gods, but the three persons are the One God.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Salaam,

What I don't understand, brother, is why you emphasize a belief in the trinity and the divinity of Jesus by Christians today. There is nothing fundamentally different about mainstream Christian doctrine than there was in the days of the Prophet Muhammad, and it is erroneous to say there is.

The divinity of Jesus and the Trinity were decided by the First Council of Nicea, which was convened in 325 AD to consolidate Christian belief and practice. These beliefs were not later additions, which is evident by the ayat you posted discussing such beliefs. Since the Prophet Muhammad wasn't even born until 570 AD, and did not receive his first revelation until 610 AD, Allah was very aware of the beliefs and practices of the Christian community in Arabia, yet, He refers to them as People of the Book because of how they have also received His revelations, and has not condemned them all to hell.

Allah has made it permissible for Muslims to intermarry with Christians (who are called Christians because of a belief in Christ) and Jews. He is aware of who they are, what they believe, yet He has chosen to include them in the circle of whom we may marry. While I understand that a Muslim may choose to avoid doing so, it is a misunderstanding to claim that a Musllim who does is doing haram when it has been made halal.

Allah is not the least bit impressed by our labels. He is far more interested in our acts, our ability to reflect His Message in our daily lives. That is why there will be Christians and Jews in jannah, and why He has instructed us to learn to live together as a test and strive toward Him.

I have never been anything other than a Muslim. One thing I have noticed is that Christian reverts often come to Islam with a measure of bitterness regarding their former faith, which taints their understanding of Allah's intent for us when dealing with other faiths. It means you have work to do, for this is not a good seed to carry from your old life into your new life.

Edited August 28, 2008 by Virtual wife

[Nasturtium 500]

As-salamu'alaykum,

Mushirk = anyone who worships other than Allah.

Is this definition correct? If it is then anyone who worships Isa (pbuh) has committed shirk. Or if a person subscribes to the trinity (Father Son and Holy Ghost and these 3 are 1) they had ascribed partners with Allah and therefore becomes a mushirk.

I'm assuming your husband of 30 years was/is a Unitarian? If not you have broken Allah's law.

wa salam

Alaykum Salaam,

A musrik is someone who worships more than one god, a polytheist. The Quran distinguishes Christians and Jews from musrikeen and kafir many times. Since Allah forbids Muslims, male or female, from marriage with mushrikeen and kafir, but allows marriage between Muslims, Christians and Jews, they cannot be mushrikeen or kafir just by being non-Muslim.

One thing to keep in mind is that on the Day of Judgment, Allah will decide who has followed Him and who has not. Merely considering oneself to be Muslim is no guarantee that one wil enter jannah (heaven). Merely considering oneself to be otherwise is no condemnation.

Allah says that there will be Christians and Jews in heaven, and those among the Muslims who will not. Q2:62 is one of several ayah that express this intent: Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. - Yusef Ali transliteration

Verily, those who have attained to faith [in this divine writ], as well as those who follow the Jewish faith, and the Christians, and the Sabeans - all who believe in God and the Last Day and do righteous deeds - shall have their reward with their Sustainer; and no fear need they have, and neither shall they grieve. - Muhammad Asad transliteration

Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and Christians, and Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve. - M.H. Shakir transliteration

Allah also says He has purposely made us believe differently so that we will learn how to live together in His Name.

5:48 To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah. it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute; - Yusef Ali transliteration

I have no regret about having married a Christian man. He was set onto my path by the Divine, and I do not question such an allowance from Allah, who is far wiser than I. Since Allah has no law forbidding interfaith marriage between Muslimas and ahl al kitab men, I have broken no law. I have been blessed with His favor in marriage many more times than I deserve.

Salam alaykom,

Im so glad to hear of the success of your long term marriage with your husband. There are wonderful people in every religion al-hamdulallah. If I were to break the laws of my Islam and chose to marry a Mushrik lady I would opt for a Hindu or non-Zionist Jewish woman rather than a Christian because I tend to get along better with them. But, alas sometimes love chooses us.

In fact I was at a friend’s house for supper and he was temporarily housing some Coptic Christian refugees. After finding out I was Muslim the Coptics refused to set at the table with me.

Coming back to the matter at hand.

You have quoted some translated verses from the Holy Quran depicting how Allah (the Most High) describes Christians and Jews. People of the Book (Ale Kittab). But for a comparison we also need Allah’s description of the Mushirk (those who join partners with Him).

Here are a few to get us started.

Quran Adh Dayryat And make not another an object of worship with Allah: I am from Him a Warner to you, clear and open! Yusuf Ali

Quran An-Nisa “Surely Allah does not forgive that anything should be associated with Him, and forgives what is besides that to whomsoever He pleases; and whoever associates anything with Allah, he devises indeed a great sin. Shakr.

Quran An-Nisa Serve Allah, and join not any partners with Him; and do good- to parents, kinsfolk, orphans, those in need, neighbors who are near, neighbors who are strangers, the companion by your side, the wayfarer (ye meet), and what your right hands possess: For Allah loves not the arrogant, the vainglorious;- Yusuf Ali

Quran Al-Anam Follow what thou art taught by inspiration from thy Lord: there is no god but He: and turn aside from those who join gods with Allah. Yusuf Ali

Quran Al-Maeda They do blaspheme who say: "Allah is Christ the son of Mary." But said Christ: "O Children of Israel! worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with Allah,- Allah will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help. Yusuf Ali

Many Christians of our modern times would fit comfortably under this umbrella. In fact within the catechisms of most all the main sects of Christianity today we find within the foundation of their beliefs what the call “The Trinity.” God+Jesus+ Holy Ghost. This was not widespread in the time of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) but was a later addition to Christianity. Some people think it came from the pagan religion of Mithraism (Mithra+Sertulus+Solenvitacus). Pls. excuse my spelling -- its been many years since I studied these things. Other Christian and historical scholars wager it was from Hinduism. (Brama+Vishnu+Shiva).

This association of partners with Allah (the Most High) by Christians in spite of the fact that they claim to be monotheists, according to Allah, are in fact Mushrikoon and fall outside the fold of Islam. On the other hand, there are a few, I was one before I became a Muslim, who claimed to believe in the Trinity yet in my heart I despised the notion.

So then,

If a Muslim wishes to marry a Christian in keeping with the laws in the Quran they should make an effort to be sure the Christian is not joining partners with Allah. Since we have no access to the contents of the heart we have to take them at their word.

Salam wa barakallah

Actually, your chronology is off. The Bible and the church traditions were set by the time of Mohammed, which includes the trinitarian addition of the council of Nicea, abuot 300 years before Mohammed. The eastern church (byzantium) was in full swing at that point. Veneration of the cross was still outlawed in the western church, but veneration of saints was in full swing in Mohammed's area. So unless you are saying he and the Quran are totally ignorant of history, it isn't a viable theiry.

[Nasturtium 500]

Salaam,

What I don't understand, brother, is why you emphasize a belief in the trinity and the divinity of Jesus by Christians today. There is nothing fundamentally different about mainstream Christian doctrine than there was in the days of the Prophet Muhammad, and it is erroneous to say there is.

Sorry, I was beginning my post about 2 hours ago and got a call and came back, I see you took care of that.

[b4byd09 0]

Help urself.

Traditionally, only in one case can a Muslim woman marry outside of Islam, and this is the case where the woman is guilty of sexual transgression, as denoted in Sura An Nur of the Qur'an: "The adulterer may marry only an adulteress or an idolatress; and the adulteress may marry only an adulterer or an idolater…" [24:3] As stated in this verse, this rule equally applies to the Muslim man who is guilty of this same offense.

you make it sound like hotel california.

Yes it will sound like hotel California to u if ur use to watch MIKE IN BRAZIL site too much. I don't blame u then.

[b4byd09 0]

Since leaving Islam is not allowed, start the kids out as Christians and let them convert to Islam if they want to. win-win

they can leave.....

[Ban Hammer 13,342]

Help urself.

Traditionally, only in one case can a Muslim woman marry outside of Islam, and this is the case where the woman is guilty of sexual transgression, as denoted in Sura An Nur of the Qur'an: "The adulterer may marry only an adulteress or an idolatress; and the adulteress may marry only an adulterer or an idolater…" [24:3] As stated in this verse, this rule equally applies to the Muslim man who is guilty of this same offense.

you make it sound like hotel california.

Yes it will sound like hotel California to u if ur use to watch MIKE IN BRAZIL site too much. I don't blame u then.

get out of the water and try again. you missed the boat completely on that leap.

Edited August 28, 2008 by charles!

[b4byd09 0]

Help urself.

Traditionally, only in one case can a Muslim woman marry outside of Islam, and this is the case where the woman is guilty of sexual transgression, as denoted in Sura An Nur of the Qur'an: "The adulterer may marry only an adulteress or an idolatress; and the adulteress may marry only an adulterer or an idolater…" [24:3] As stated in this verse, this rule equally applies to the Muslim man who is guilty of this same offense.

you make it sound like hotel california.

Yes it will sound like hotel California to u if ur use to watch MIKE IN BRAZIL site too much. I don't blame u then.

get out of the water and try again. you missed the boat completely on that leap.

Thanx for telling me I missed the boat. Jeeeeeez, now I would have to swim.