Visa Fraud- Using B-2 with intention to immigrate

[*JG* 2]

I think that intentionally using the visitor visa to circumvent the immigrant visa process is wrong.

I think they should allow those going through the process to obtain visitor visas during the process. I also think those who have gone before us abused the system and that is the reason it is so difficult sometimes.

Jamaica is notorious for not allowing visitor visas for almost any reason. It's extremely difficult to get one. I find that wrong in every sense. But, then again, I think those before abused the system.

I think blaming anyone in a govermental capacity is wrong because they are just following rules that were set because of those who have abused the system in the past.

[kerewin21 2]

The end result of getting a green card is the same, wouldn't you rather have the whole process take place while they are here with you and processed at a local office where you can go and supply any additional information as needed?

I guess my point is that getting married, staying together, and getting a green card in about 6 months is not the same end result as waiting apart for years, dealing with unreasonable government officers who are not required to have any accountability to US citizens or even to Senators and Representatives, and eventually getting a visa, then having to apply for a green card, which is another several months long wait. I guess if all you count is the green card it's the same, but we're comparing months and years of uncertainty and unhappiness to a few months for a near-certain approval (honestly, how many people have you seen on this board whose AOS from visitor visa or student visa was not approved because some consular officer thought they didn't have a valid relationship?).

In addition, people on the VWP save a lot of money. They didn't have to pay all the visa fees.

I'm happy for the people who have that option that it was so easy for them, and that people who overstay can fall in love and magically become legal residents, but is that really right?

Edited to add: I know plenty of people (mostly friends of my husband) who get married to someone just to get their green card after they've overstayed a tourist visa. They live together amicably for a few years, then split up, and voila, the person who was an illegal immigrant becomes a resident and then eventually a citizen. I'm sure nobody here agrees with this, but the current system makes this kind of arrangement extremely easy to get away with.

Edited July 2, 2008 by kerewin21

[eric_and_teresa 10]

I guess my point is that getting married, staying together, and getting a green card in about 6 months is not the same end result as waiting apart for years, dealing with unreasonable government officers who are not required to have any accountability to US citizens or even to Senators and Representatives, and eventually getting a visa, then having to apply for a green card, which is another several months long wait. I guess if all you count is the green card it's the same, but we're comparing months and years of uncertainty and unhappiness to a few months for a near-certain approval (honestly, how many people have you seen on this board whose AOS from visitor visa or student visa was not approved because some consular officer thought they didn't have a valid relationship?).

In addition, people on the VWP save a lot of money. They didn't have to pay all the visa fees.

I'm happy for the people who have that option that it was so easy for them, and that people who overstay can fall in love and magically become legal residents, but is that really right?

Edited to add: I know plenty of people (mostly friends of my husband) who get married to someone just to get their green card after they've overstayed a tourist visa. They live together amicably for a few years, then split up, and voila, the person who was an illegal immigrant becomes a resident and then eventually a citizen. I'm sure nobody here agrees with this, but the current system makes this kind of arrangement extremely easy to get away with.

Exactly! And at the same time we have people here who applied for K-1 and are waiting for months and years, going through AR and second interviews sometimes scheduled months away from the first one, and going through all that kind of stuff because the CO questioned the validity of their relationship, and in some cases the CO has even refused to look at the evidence or documents that were submitted in the first place! That is exactly what I'm talking about, it is sooo upsetting!

Edited July 2, 2008 by eric_and_teresa

[Gaby&Talbert 1]

I guess my point is that getting married, staying together, and getting a green card in about 6 months is not the same end result as waiting apart for years, dealing with unreasonable government officers who are not required to have any accountability to US citizens or even to Senators and Representatives, and eventually getting a visa, then having to apply for a green card, which is another several months long wait. I guess if all you count is the green card it's the same, but we're comparing months and years of uncertainty and unhappiness to a few months for a near-certain approval (honestly, how many people have you seen on this board whose AOS from visitor visa or student visa was not approved because some consular officer thought they didn't have a valid relationship?).

In addition, people on the VWP save a lot of money. They didn't have to pay all the visa fees.

I'm happy for the people who have that option that it was so easy for them, and that people who overstay can fall in love and magically become legal residents, but is that really right?

Edited to add: I know plenty of people (mostly friends of my husband) who get married to someone just to get their green card after they've overstayed a tourist visa. They live together amicably for a few years, then split up, and voila, the person who was an illegal immigrant becomes a resident and then eventually a citizen. I'm sure nobody here agrees with this, but the current system makes this kind of arrangement extremely easy to get away with.

Exactly! And at the same time we have people here who applied for K-1 and are waiting for months and years, going through AR and second interviews sometimes scheduled months away from the first one, and going through all that kind of stuff because the CO questioned the validity of their relationship, and in some cases the CO has even refused to look at the evidence or documents that were submitted in the first place! That is exactly what I'm talking about, it is sooo upsetting!

I agree that people shouldn't have to spend so much time apart and the laws should change so people can be together during the process.

Has anyone seen statistics on how many visas are issued for spouses conpared to all the rest? I am curious what percent are for spouses and fiances?

[Singers 0]

I haven't posted in awhile.. but I thought I'd jump in on this.

As for changing the law so that people can wait in the US while they are AOS... That would be great if we were all good people but unfortunately the world isn't full of nice people. From the government's perspective this is the giant worm hole you open up:

A says that he is going to marry B (US Citizen) or is married to B. A is allowed into the country to wait for his paperwork. The US government then realizes A has ulterior motives coming to the US and isn't actually here for the marriage. The US goverment orders A deported. A says: That's nice. But now you have to come get me because I'm not leaving! A then disappears....

Think of the time, money and resources it would take the chase these people down rather than just not having allowed them into the country in the first place.

Unforunately these people spoil it for everyone else.

[Brad and Vika 129]

I haven't posted in awhile.. but I thought I'd jump in on this.

As for changing the law so that people can wait in the US while they are AOS... That would be great if we were all good people but unfortunately the world isn't full of nice people. From the government's perspective this is the giant worm hole you open up:

A says that he is going to marry B (US Citizen) or is married to B. A is allowed into the country to wait for his paperwork. The US government then realizes A has ulterior motives coming to the US and isn't actually here for the marriage. The US goverment orders A deported. A says: That's nice. But now you have to come get me because I'm not leaving! A then disappears....

Think of the time, money and resources it would take the chase these people down rather than just not having allowed them into the country in the first place.

Unforunately these people spoil it for everyone else.

Great point. I had a Vice Consul once tell me that in the country he was in, and many others, there are standing instructions to turn down visitor/tourist visas for any applicant under 35 years old. Exceptions are made for people leaving behind children, spouses, successful businesses, or valuable property. The assumption out of the box is that there is some other motive than a visit because 80% (his figure) of the persons under 30 with those kinds of visas don't come back on time. He also said that Homeland Security (INS then) doesn't have the manpower to track down people who overstay - and they are more concerned with undocumented aliens. I can't speak to the accuracy of his statistics, but I believe that there is a problem with overstaying.

I hate that my fiance' is from a country where getting a visa to America is near impossible. It would make our lives easier if I could fly her here periodically too. At least the people who arrive on some other kind of visa and then get married are documented and examined to some extent before we let them in. I am much more worried about the thousands who walk/wade in, or ride in cargo ships. It makes me angry that people who arrived here illegally think they have the right to sneak in without security checks and stay forever. It makes me furious that many of our dumb-### elected officials believe that if an illegal manages to hide here long enough, they can have amnesty. When our 80's era amnesty program wrapped up it was like putting up a sign that says "hide out long enough and you can stay". Although I am as frustrated as anybody at the long process, I salute all persons who at least get a visa of some kind before coming here. Every immigrant should. Just my opinion.

Edited July 3, 2008 by Brad and Vika

[pegbert64 0]

Just want to add a couple of quick comments......

First, I don't condone breaking the law or knowingly doing anything illegal or fraudulent. And I am truly sorry for those of you who have to wait alone until your loved one can join you here in the US. I pray that everyone will be united ASAP!

1) there is a big difference between "intent" and "possibility". Intent, to me, means that one or both of the parties specifically and knowingly decided to use an alternate and fraudulent way to enter and stay in the US via marriage. Possibility, on the other hand, is just that: it is "possible" that you might meet someone on your visit, and it is "possible" that you may fall in love and get married. "Possibilities" surround us every day in our lives..... is it "possible" that I might look for a new job one day? Sure! So if I admit to that possibility now, and then three months down the road I happen to be offered a new job, does that constitute "intent"? Of course not! Hence, regarding marriage, this is what is left to the USCIS to determine.

2) there are advantages and drawbacks to both situations (ie: applying out of the country, or adjusting status while within). When you wait out of the country for the visa, I can only imagine how hard it is to be away from your partner, and the wait must seem endless. But you are also able to transition from your old life to your new one over time. For those who enter legally as a visitor, with every plan to return to their home country, it creates quite the dilema when you unexpectly "abandon" everything back home. Your family, your home, your business, your belongings, your bank accounts, your medical benefits, etc etc etc. You are literally stuck here, with the *clothes on your back* until you are granted PR. Yes, I got to stay with my husband, but trying to conduct/coclude my old life from this side of the border has been no picnic in the park. Hiring attorneys on both sides of the border to deal with real estate sales, taxes, etc I could handle...... what I could not handle was my mother (not in the US) being diagnosed with terminal cancer, and I not even being able to go and see her without jeopardizing my AOS case. Our attorney said it would take about 6 months..... it took 11. Every night I prayed that God would not take her yet.... .just give us enough time for us to finish this process so that I could take her new son-in-law home before it was too late.

A lot of things in life are not "fair". Sometimes we are put in situations that we would rather avoid; but we have to make a choice, and then live with the consequences. I had two LEGAL choices: leave the US after my marriage, tie up my old life at home, and await a spousal visa; or remain in the US with my husband, wait who knows how long for AoS, deal the best I can with a life on both sides of a border until I am able to go home and officially "move". I chose the latter, and even though it has not always been easy, I accepted the consequences of my decision.

Please use caution when crying "it's not fair!". We are (I assume) adults, and we CHOSE to marry someone from outside of our own country. We did this knowing full well that there would be an immigration process to endure, one way or the other. I'm sure that for some people - maybe those who do commit fraud - it is a walk in the park, but not for all of us who come as visitors and stay for love. But God is good..... I received my greencard today, Mom is hanging in there, and next week she will meet her new son-in-law for the first time, as I can finally go home

Edited July 5, 2008 by pegbert64

[HighwayStar 0]

Please use caution when crying "it's not fair!". We are (I assume) adults, and we CHOSE to marry someone from outside of our own country. We did this knowing full well that there would be an immigration process to endure, one way or the other. I'm sure that for some people - maybe those who do commit fraud - it is a walk in the park, but not for all of us who come as visitors and stay for love. But God is good..... I received my greencard today, Mom is hanging in there, and next week she will meet her new son-in-law for the first time, as I can finally go home

Just a comment on this last paragraph, hoping I will not hurt anyone's feelings... In the countries that are part of the European Union and have signed the Schengen Treaty, there is next to no immigration process to be endured for the spouses of citizens. Moreover, if my fiancé had been a citizen of, say, France or Germany (which are still different countries than my native Italy), none of this would have happened. All the 'immigration process' is about is applying for a special residence permit, valid for 5 years. No separations, interviews, lots of money to be spent, fear of deportation, and such.... And none of our countries are overrun with criminals, or by people marrying just in order to get residency.

[Trompe le Monde 1,107]

Please use caution when crying "it's not fair!". We are (I assume) adults, and we CHOSE to marry someone from outside of our own country. We did this knowing full well that there would be an immigration process to endure, one way or the other. I'm sure that for some people - maybe those who do commit fraud - it is a walk in the park, but not for all of us who come as visitors and stay for love. But God is good..... I received my greencard today, Mom is hanging in there, and next week she will meet her new son-in-law for the first time, as I can finally go home

Just a comment on this last paragraph, hoping I will not hurt anyone's feelings... In the countries that are part of the European Union and have signed the Schengen Treaty, there is next to no immigration process to be endured for the spouses of citizens. Moreover, if my fiancé had been a citizen of, say, France or Germany (which are still different countries than my native Italy), none of this would have happened. All the 'immigration process' is about is applying for a special residence permit, valid for 5 years. No separations, interviews, lots of money to be spent, fear of deportation, and such.... And none of our countries are overrun with criminals, or by people marrying just in order to get residency.

And on a similar note, people who have UK partners who decide to immigrate the other way are required to get a fiance visa to marry find they get said visa in a matter of days as opposed to months. I bet this whole "tourist adjusting" debate we are having would be mute if that was the case here.

[Sylvia_n_Joseph 3]

I think they should modify it so they can marry while here but must exit at the end of the b2 visa and wait out the k3/cr1 process. If they did intend on staying in the first place that it should be no problem.

[eric_and_teresa 10]

Please use caution when crying "it's not fair!". We are (I assume) adults, and we CHOSE to marry someone from outside of our own country. We did this knowing full well that there would be an immigration process to endure, one way or the other. I'm sure that for some people - maybe those who do commit fraud - it is a walk in the park, but not for all of us who come as visitors and stay for love. But God is good..... I received my greencard today, Mom is hanging in there, and next week she will meet her new son-in-law for the first time, as I can finally go home

Just wanted to clarify that I'm not saying is not fair that we have to go through an immigration process. I was more than aware of what we were getting into. I never said it was unfair we had to apply for a K-1.

I'm saying is not fair that those who break the law using a B-2 to immigrate (fully aware of that when they entered the country as tourist their real purpose was to marry AND stay permanently) pass their interviews without being questioned at all, about their intent or about the validity of their relationship. While many others who do it the right way, go through hell during their interviews, go through endless reviews, are scheduled a second or third interviw! That, in my opinion is UNFAIR.

If you had no intent to immigrate using a B-2, good for you, you did not break the law. I'm not talking about people who did not have intent prior to enter the country.

One last comment about, the negative side of staying permanently after entering with a B-2 and the things you had to go through for doing so. YOU decided to stay. (as you said, as an adult, you were aware of what you were doing). So whatever you had to leave behind, it was because you decided to do so. If there were things or family issues that were too important could not be left unsolved, you also had the choice to go back home solve all your things and apply for a K-1, BUT you decided to stay. You made a choice, and you had to deal with the consequences of making that decision.

Edited July 7, 2008 by eric_and_teresa

[*JG* 2]

I know someone right now who intends to do this very thing.

I have voiced my opinion on how I feel about it.

[pegbert64 0]

One last comment about, the negative side of staying permanently after entering with a B-2 and the things you had to go through for doing so. YOU decided to stay. (as you said, as an adult, you were aware of what you were doing). So whatever you had to leave behind, it was because you decided to do so. If there were things or family issues that were too important could not be left unsolved, you also had the choice to go back home solve all your things and apply for a K-1, BUT you decided to stay. You made a choice, and you had to deal with the consequences of making that decision.

Exactly. Glad you understood my point!

And not quoting any poster specifically, but it's a bit simplified to assume and generalize that those who adjusted status from within the US had an "easier" time, or faster processing, than those who wait in their home coutries for a visa, thus a reason to "hate" them. I have read dozens and dozens of stories on this website of couples who got the runaround, unfair and moody officers, RFEs, interviews, missing files, background checks, etc etc...... regardless of how they applied for PR, where they were, or from which country they had come. Obviously, there are going to criteria that make it more difficult for certain couples (ie: applicant's homeland), with intensified scrutinty and longer processing times. If it hard to get a visitor visa from your country, then it's not unreasonable to allow that it will also be harder to complete the immigration process. But that's because of global politics, not of legal visitors marrying, staying, "jumping the line", and getting a greencard in 3 months!!

I don't think it would make a bit of difference if the law changed so that NO ONE could marry and stay while adjusting status.... that is not going to stop people from breaking the law. If anything, it will just encourage more people to stay here illegally, which is sad but true. But this goes far beyong the AOS via marriage domain...... think about the "guest worker program" that never happend. Sort of like "OK, whoever is here illegally, raise your hand, and we might let you stay for 3 years, but then you have to leave." Ummmmm..... how many of them have already been here for 5, 10, 20 years? Who will actually raise their hand?? Same with gun control - those who want 'em, will get 'em one way or another! Making it HARDER to adjust status from within the country won't change anything.... making the process more FAIR for those outside the country might.

IMO, the reason that so many people are waiting so long for immigration is because the entire system is grossly messed up. No one seems to know what they are doing..... this dept is not communicating with that dept, this officer had different prejudices from that officer, your file ends up on someone's desk who once knew someone with a last name that sounds like yours who's grandfather was an alledged communist, so they stick your file at the bottom of the pile. It goes on and on. How is it that one person named John Smith has zero harrassment at POE, and the next John Smith is sent to secondary because his suitcase is blue instead of black? Or that the immigration officer smiles and approves the pretty blonde in jeans, but gives an unusally hard time to the lovely woman in her native dress? And all the while, families are hurting and missing out on precious time together.... time that they will never get back. THESE are the things that are "unfair". EVERY legitimate couple should be treated with respect and urgency, no matter where they are from or how they came to find their loved one, so that they can get on with building their lives together.

Nuff said.

Edited July 7, 2008 by pegbert64

[eric_and_teresa 10]

And not quoting any poster specifically, but it's a bit simplified to assume and generalize that those who adjusted status from within the US had an "easier" time, or faster processing, than those who wait in their home coutries for a visa, thus a reason to "hate" them. I have read dozens and dozens of stories on this website of couples who got the runaround, unfair and moody officers, RFEs, interviews, missing files, background checks, etc etc...... regardless of how they applied for PR, where they were, or from which country they had come. Obviously, there are going to criteria that make it more difficult for certain couples (ie: applicant's homeland), with intensified scrutinty and longer processing times. If it hard to get a visitor visa from your country, then it's not unreasonable to allow that it will also be harder to complete the immigration process. But that's because of global politics, not of legal visitors marrying, staying, "jumping the line", and getting a greencard in 3 months!!

Its good that you are not quoting any poster, I honestly, don't think any of the posters on this thread has made that generalization. The intention of this thread was not to generalize about those had adjusted their status while in the U.S.

The title of thread is "VISA FRAUD: Using B-2 with intention to immigrate and getting away with it easily" My purpose was to talk about people who commit visa fraud specifically. When I said "getting away with it easily" I meant getting away with the visa fraud. Not getting their green card easily. I was talking about people who break the law because they disagree with it or the immigration rules do not fit their personal agenda. These people would never go through the "downside" you had to go through when you left your family and personal matters unattended. The people I'm talking about planned on immigrating through a B-2, and handled all their business before coming to the U.S. and lied at the POE. For what you wrote you don't fall into this category, so when we talk about couples who used B-2 a short cut to immigrate you should not take it personally, as you did not have intent prior to entry the U.S. Like you, MANY who have adjusted their status in the U.S. have done it legally; those cases are NOT the subject of this discussion. The law breakers are.

I really don't know if their AOS process goes faster or slower than the AOS process of a K-1 or K-3 holder. I'd have to check the VJ timelines to make such statement. BUT there is one thing you can not deny, they sure save themselves from 6 months to 1 year of waiting abroad, by not having to apply for a K-1 or K-3, and applying directly to AOS.

I'd appreciate, if you could point me out those dozens of threads of people who adjusted from a B-2 going through so many difficulties when applying for AOS, because I have missed them all. I've been here for a while and haven't read a single thread about a B-2 holder going through lots of trouble when adjusting their status or being asked about their intent during their interview.

I agree, every legitimate couple should be treated EQUALLY with respect. That's why I'm against of those who break the law and cut into line. AGAIN, I'm talking about those who willingly and consciously decided to commit visa fraud.

One last thing, I have to disagree about what you said that if getting a visitor visa from a certain country is difficult, then ANY other immigration process will be difficult as well for a person from that country. MANY people who had been denied tourist visas several times, have no problem getting a K-1 or K-3 and adjusting their status. The requirements for getting a B-2 are completely different of the requirements for getting another type of visa or applying for AOS. So I don't think that is necesarily true.

Edited July 8, 2008 by eric_and_teresa

[Gaby&Talbert 1]

They will never be able to stop overstays of any type of visa until they have a method of tracking them down. I have read that people that have been detained and then released have been fitted with a tracking device. What would be wrong with putting a tracking device on everyone entering the US on a non immigrant visa? They already have approved making everyone "check out of the US" by collecting biometrics at exit so why not go one step further and do it right by being able to track someone when they don't exit before their I-94 expires? If they refuse to wear it then don't allow them to enter?