McCain predicts Iraq war over by 2013

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

Well, Gary, this misguided adventure is in it's 6th year without being anywhere near a successful completion. What exactly makes you think that continuing on this clearly unsuccessful path is going to somehow magically make it all fall into place?

Clearly Bush made mistakes for which I have criticized him for. Not reconstituting the Iraq army, not putting enough troops in there to keep the insurgency down and not working with the various factions are just a few. Those problems have been addressed in the last year and progress has clearly been made. In essence Bush wasted 4 years. McCain has said that he will not make those same mistakes. You keep saying that we are continuing on an unsuccessful path without acknowledging that we did indeed change the path last year. Obama's idea of just pulling out will be an even worse path that will make things worse. It seems that you see things as an either we pull out or we don't choice and that just isn't true.

What political progress was made, specifically? We managed to buy a temporary improvement in the security situation but no political gain has come from that. Without that, no military engagement will help in the long haul. The political progress is lacking and I don't see where Bush and Co. have changed course on that end. That, however, is where change is needed the most if this is ever going to turn out right.

And pulling out and leaving them to deal with even more helps how? Change like that isn't better than what we have now.

The Iraqi's ought to know that they need to start taking care of their own destiny. That is the message that needs to be sent. We'll help but we won't have 150,000 troops in that country another 5 years. Those troops being one of the reasons that there is an insurgency in the first place. As I said, what's happened there under Bush - aside from the fact that none of it should ever happened in the first place - is not a success story and there needs to be a clear cut from those failed policies and strategies.

[GaryC 7]

Well, Gary, this misguided adventure is in it's 6th year without being anywhere near a successful completion. What exactly makes you think that continuing on this clearly unsuccessful path is going to somehow magically make it all fall into place?

Clearly Bush made mistakes for which I have criticized him for. Not reconstituting the Iraq army, not putting enough troops in there to keep the insurgency down and not working with the various factions are just a few. Those problems have been addressed in the last year and progress has clearly been made. In essence Bush wasted 4 years. McCain has said that he will not make those same mistakes. You keep saying that we are continuing on an unsuccessful path without acknowledging that we did indeed change the path last year. Obama's idea of just pulling out will be an even worse path that will make things worse. It seems that you see things as an either we pull out or we don't choice and that just isn't true.

What political progress was made, specifically? We managed to buy a temporary improvement in the security situation but no political gain has come from that. Without that, no military engagement will help in the long haul. The political progress is lacking and I don't see where Bush and Co. have changed course on that end. That, however, is where change is needed the most if this is ever going to turn out right.

And pulling out and leaving them to deal with even more helps how? Change like that isn't better than what we have now.

The Iraqi's ought to know that they need to start taking care of their own destiny. That is the message that needs to be sent. We'll help but we won't have 150,000 troops in that country another 5 years. Those troops being one of the reasons that there is an insurgency in the first place. As I said, what's happened there under Bush - aside from the fact that none of it should ever happened in the first place - is not a success story and there needs to be a clear cut from those failed policies and strategies.

How humanitarian of you. It seems you don't care about the people of Iraq but only in getting us out at any cost. Even if you have to convince yourself that pulling the rug out from under them will be helping them. Pulling out like Obama wants will doom Iraq to a bloody civil war with only Iran left as the winner.

Your right, there is a stark difference between Obama and McCain. When those differences become apparent to the people in general I think that Obama will be seen as a coward and unwilling to do the hard things that should be done.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Iran isn't winning already?

[GaryC 7]

Iran isn't winning already?

Only if we give up and leave.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Iran isn't winning already?

Only if we give up and leave.

Sure - but that puts us in a pretty shite position.

[HAL 9000 96]

So much talk about not abandoning people in Iraq after having contributed to the deaths of tens of thousands and at the same time not wanting to invest 1/10th the cost in making sure our own population is taken care of... priceless.

[GaryC 7]

So much talk about not abandoning people in Iraq after having contributed to the deaths of tens of thousands and at the same time not wanting to invest 1/10th the cost in making sure our own population is taken care of... priceless.

So only Americans are worth saving in your eyes.... priceless.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

I think we all know that its more complicated than that.

[HAL 9000 96]

So much talk about not abandoning people in Iraq after having contributed to the deaths of tens of thousands and at the same time not wanting to invest 1/10th the cost in making sure our own population is taken care of... priceless.

So only Americans are worth saving in your eyes.... priceless.

Well we do know how to pick and choose our battles, right? Plus notice how I do not state what you state.

Like I said, definitely priceless...

excuse #1 was shown to be a bold lie

excuse #2 was shown to be iffy

and now

excuse #3 is looking the same way the other two went

[GaryC 7]

So much talk about not abandoning people in Iraq after having contributed to the deaths of tens of thousands and at the same time not wanting to invest 1/10th the cost in making sure our own population is taken care of... priceless.

So only Americans are worth saving in your eyes.... priceless.

Well we do know how to pick and choose our battles, right? Plus notice how I do not state what you state.

Like I said, definitely priceless...

excuse #1 was shown to be a bold lie

excuse #2 was shown to be iffy

and now

excuse #3 is looking the same way the other two went

Yeah right. Admit it, you don't care about anyone but yourself. The Iraqi people can just all go to hell as far as your concerned.

[HAL 9000 96]

So much talk about not abandoning people in Iraq after having contributed to the deaths of tens of thousands and at the same time not wanting to invest 1/10th the cost in making sure our own population is taken care of... priceless.

So only Americans are worth saving in your eyes.... priceless.

Well we do know how to pick and choose our battles, right? Plus notice how I do not state what you state.

Like I said, definitely priceless...

excuse #1 was shown to be a bold lie

excuse #2 was shown to be iffy

and now

excuse #3 is looking the same way the other two went

Yeah right. Admit it, you don't care about anyone but yourself. The Iraqi people can just all go to hell as far as your concerned.

Yeah... lets apply that same logic to all our other posts about being rationally tied to what we say hum, Gary?

[GaryC 7]

Someone once said that those that forget history are doomed to repeat it. Lets look at some history.

There are two things I am hearing from the left.

1. We shouldn't have gone into Iraq in the first place. We should have contained Saddam and used diplomacy.

2. Since we went in we should now just pull out and try for a diplomatic solution.

We have two examples in history of these different ideas to draw from:

1. Containment and diplomacy of Saddam. We tried this already. It's called Korea. After we beat back the north to the 38th parallel America lost it's stomach for war. So we negotiated a cease fire, contained the North and have been doing ongoing diplomacy with them. The result? Sure, no more Americans were killed. But what about the people trapped in the north? They have suffered under an oppressive government of almost 60 years now. They have been starved and held down. Do we seem to give a damn? Nope, since our troops are no longer getting killed. Now N. Korea is trying to build a bomb and a missile system to deliver it. All we have done is to put off the fight to the next generation. Sooner or later N. Korea will have to be dealt with.

2. Just pull out and hope things work out. We tried this also. It's called Vietnam. We had the north beat. We could have taken the entire country if we really wanted to but Johnson was more worried about the peace movement. So we just pulled out. What happened? Thousands of Vietnamese people were killed when the north took over and many thousands more were sent to "re-education" camps. After 35 years the country is just now becoming livable again. But hey, no more Americans are being killed. Right? So it was worth the cost of lives of the Viet people.

We do have an example of a third option. WW2. In WW2 we made it a national effort to win at all costs. We fought until the war was won. Then after the war was won we stayed in Germany, Italy and Japan for decades. The results? We have three countries that threaten no one, are prosperous and are friendly.

You tell me which one worked out better. But hey, as long as no more Americans are killed you don't really care do you?

[Dr. A ♥ O 203]

It's true it is priceless what we're doing. The US spending on the defense budget is more than what the world combined spends on their defense budget and some of this is due to the fact we support many of the worlds military. One immediate example is Iraq.

Another variable to the Democratic Peace argument is that while Democracies don't got to war with other Mature Democracies they do go to war with Non-Democracies. Leaving Iraq before a stable mature democracy is in place would be the real failure.

One, because all those fractions that are fighting would explode in a bloody civil war until the radicals won and took over. This is the proven model of Western Revolutions. Once the Dictatorship is instated in Iraq it will be more coercive and worse than Saddam Hussein and you can be sure it would be Iran's best buddy. Thinking for one second that pulling out, and allowing this to happen, makes the world a better place, and that we're going to be able to have diplomatic ties, and peace in the middle east this way, is ridiculous. The majority of those countries are developing countries fighting and waring constantly with each other.

The step after the radicals take over control and instate their Dictator is almost always a counter revolution. Which is what Obama setting us up for with the kinds of talks he is giving. US interference supports though aid these counter revolutions in the past (Nicaragua). And you what those counter revolutionaries we'd be supporting is typically the very people we ousted in the beginning. Save ourselves the trouble and stick it out and make it the way it should be without supporting either radical party.

So yes it is priceless what is being insured here is Democracy if we stay the long run and don't pull out. "Peace through force." Establishing a Mature Democracy in Iraq through force is the way it's going to have to be if you really want the first step to peace in the Middle East.

Second, yes it's true Democracy's pick battles they can win, and they fight long, and they fight hard, and they fight to the death, and that's why we've won so much in the past.

That's why the generation that fought in WWII is called, "The greatest generation in history."

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Great - the WW2 comparison gets wheeled out again.

How "B" Movie can you get.

[Dr. A ♥ O 203]

Great - the WW2 comparison gets wheeled out again.

How "B" Movie can you get.

That's all? Please.

This thread is getting tired anyways.