KKK endorses McCain: "A black President would go against just about everything we stand for"

[HAL 9000 96]

Would a heterosexual or white person have a fair shot at getting a staff job at a book publisher that produces gay or ethnic books and magazines? The odds are probably against it - for obvious reasons. You can't write for a magazine if you don't know the audience - and you're not likely to know the audience unless you're gay or black.

As to education - it isn't about grades, but I definitely don't agree with this idea that a college would deliberately nobble itself to admit substandard degree students on that basis of arbitrary quotas. I think a bit more thought goes into the selections than that.

I don't agree with 'quotas' either, and yes, much more goes into accepting students in higher education institutions.

Quotas are not that productive... and if you notice they are under attack all over the country. Suffice to say that there is a backlash and in many places they have benefited certain students now is not the case, even though the racial dynamic has improved in the nation...

[DeadPoolX 9]

Maybe that's what is at issue here - this perception that anything positive for a minority is a "punishment" for a non-minority.

Tell that to the white kid with an B average who didn't get accepted because the black or hispanic kid with a C- took his spot.

Or *any* kid with a C-

As I said - there are many reasons this could happen.

There are actually some people on here who work as academic admissions counsellor's - their view on this would probably be illuminating...

To be fair (which is really what this is all about, isn't it?), grades aren't everything. Sure, they're probably the best way to monitor someone's performance in any given class and a GPA is a good indicator of someone's aptitude in whatever area they are studying, but people are more than just grades.

Some jobs require certain types of people. I'm not trying to be discriminatory here, but if there's an opening for a position that deals with a certain client base, then applicants might be judged against that, as well as the other usual areas.

Is that fair? Theoretically, no, it's not. However, business isn't fair -- it's about making money. So if a corporation can make more with one person than another, simply due to physical, racial, ethnic, religious or gender differences, they'll certainly consider those when viewing the proposed hiring pool. That wouldn't be the only reason someone gets hired, but it might matter, especially when money is concerned.

Would a heterosexual or white person have a fair shot at getting a staff job at a book publisher that produces gay or ethnic books and magazines? The odds are probably against it - for obvious reasons. You can't write for a magazine if you don't know the audience - and you're not likely to know the audience unless you're gay or black.

As to education - it isn't about grades, but I definitely don't agree with this idea that a college would deliberately nobble itself to admit substandard degree students on that basis of arbitrary quotas. I think a bit more thought goes into the selections than that.

I think you misread my post, because you're agreeing with me there -- in fact, you've practically restated my entire post.

[HAL 9000 96]

Maybe that's what is at issue here - this perception that anything positive for a minority is a "punishment" for a non-minority.

Tell that to the white kid with an B average who didn't get accepted because the black or hispanic kid with a C- took his spot.

Or *any* kid with a C-

As I said - there are many reasons this could happen.

There are actually some people on here who work as academic admissions counsellor's - their view on this would probably be illuminating...

To be fair (which is really what this is all about, isn't it?), grades aren't everything. Sure, they're probably the best way to monitor someone's performance in any given class and a GPA is a good indicator of someone's aptitude in whatever area they are studying, but people are more than just grades.

Some jobs require certain types of people. I'm not trying to be discriminatory here, but if there's an opening for a position that deals with a certain client base, then applicants might be judged against that, as well as the other usual areas.

Is that fair? Theoretically, no, it's not. However, business isn't fair -- it's about making money. So if a corporation can make more with one person than another, simply due to physical, racial, ethnic, religious or gender differences, they'll certainly consider those when viewing the proposed hiring pool. That wouldn't be the only reason someone gets hired, but it might matter, especially when money is concerned.

Would a heterosexual or white person have a fair shot at getting a staff job at a book publisher that produces gay or ethnic books and magazines? The odds are probably against it - for obvious reasons. You can't write for a magazine if you don't know the audience - and you're not likely to know the audience unless you're gay or black.

As to education - it isn't about grades, but I definitely don't agree with this idea that a college would deliberately nobble itself to admit substandard degree students on that basis of arbitrary quotas. I think a bit more thought goes into the selections than that.

I think you misread my post, because you're agreeing with me there -- in fact, you've practically restated my entire post.

I think he's stated that overall point of view a little further back. I honestly, underneath it all, WISH I could also not have to defend AA and the likes but unfortunately, the state of a nation in which we live in in 2008 still needs more work towards more parity so that when people make individual choices, they can be made under true equal conditions.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Maybe that's what is at issue here - this perception that anything positive for a minority is a "punishment" for a non-minority.

Tell that to the white kid with an B average who didn't get accepted because the black or hispanic kid with a C- took his spot.

Or *any* kid with a C-

As I said - there are many reasons this could happen.

There are actually some people on here who work as academic admissions counsellor's - their view on this would probably be illuminating...

To be fair (which is really what this is all about, isn't it?), grades aren't everything. Sure, they're probably the best way to monitor someone's performance in any given class and a GPA is a good indicator of someone's aptitude in whatever area they are studying, but people are more than just grades.

Some jobs require certain types of people. I'm not trying to be discriminatory here, but if there's an opening for a position that deals with a certain client base, then applicants might be judged against that, as well as the other usual areas.

Is that fair? Theoretically, no, it's not. However, business isn't fair -- it's about making money. So if a corporation can make more with one person than another, simply due to physical, racial, ethnic, religious or gender differences, they'll certainly consider those when viewing the proposed hiring pool. That wouldn't be the only reason someone gets hired, but it might matter, especially when money is concerned.

Would a heterosexual or white person have a fair shot at getting a staff job at a book publisher that produces gay or ethnic books and magazines? The odds are probably against it - for obvious reasons. You can't write for a magazine if you don't know the audience - and you're not likely to know the audience unless you're gay or black.

As to education - it isn't about grades, but I definitely don't agree with this idea that a college would deliberately nobble itself to admit substandard degree students on that basis of arbitrary quotas. I think a bit more thought goes into the selections than that.

I think you misread my post, because you're agreeing with me there -- in fact, you've practically restated my entire post.

I wasn't disagreeing - but I do think there's a difference between an employer's tendency to hire someone for a job based on the race or sexuality because the job requires a person from that background and how college places are assigned.

[Heracles 417]

They do have odds stacked against them. It has been explained to you before- schooling for inner city children is funded disproportionately according to local taxation- primarily more so than the standard amounts dedicated per pupil from the State and Federal level. Sure, you get diamonds in the rough that make their teachers cry with joy, but even some of these kids get sucked in by a system that is stacked against them (poor home life, lack of proper diet at home, poor health care, violence close to home, etc). These are all byproducts of true and historical circumstance.

Note how race is left out of that argument. You are a product of where you come from.

I think you just proved Boo-Yah's point -- race has nothing to do with it.

Poor white kids struggle just as hard as poor black kids do.

It does when placed into context. It is no coincidence that the major inner cities with disproportionate levels of educational funding have a very particular racial makeup. Hence, they do have it stacked against them. {Cause, History}

I don't agree with that. Why have they not moved? There are plenty of jobs in various industries throughout America but they deliberately choose to stay in inner-city ghettos. 20,000,000 illegal immigrants can find a job so I just don't buy it.

[Heracles 417]

I'll have to dig out the stats - but I seem to remember pointing out to BY a while back that black americans are statistically 4 times more likely than whites to experience poverty, and for that poverty to be generational.

You will dig out the stats :rofl: :rofl:

[Fandango 1,439]

completely uncalled for and totally offensive.

the KKK endorsing McC doesn't make him a racist anymore than AQ 'endorsing' O makes him a terrorist...

Maybe that's what is at issue here - this perception that anything positive for a minority is a "punishment" for a non-minority.

No, its racist in the premise that because your skin is black, you need a handout.

If there is to truly be equality, AA needs to stop.

[Heracles 417]

Certainly - my intent was really to address the whole "if someone of X race said it, there'd be a big hoo-ha". Especially as the character in this thread has been to compare the NAACP with the KKK.

There is a difference and there is a reason why we have things like BET or indeed the NAACP and (IMO) they have less to do with giving racism a pass than some people want to believe.

I will concede though that these things and social engineering like Affirmative Action can and do cause problems - but at the same time abandoning those things will not magically provide the transition to social equality. After all, this is pretty much was what these things were brought in to address in the first place.

I don't know who has the answers - but I do know that pointing fingers at group X or Y doesn't move the debate forward.

It's true though. If the goal is true racial equality, then things like BET, and Affirmative Action need to stop. There is NO such thing as 'reverse' racism...it's racism, pure and simple. I remember years ago watching Def Comedy Jam (I used to watch it all the time, it was v funny), and seeing comedian after comedian make serious fun of white people. Not the 'oh he can't dance' innocuous funny #######, but REALLY harsh sh!t. I watched one of em say that the black people were going to capture all the whites and change all our names and force us to become slaves. 'you won't be laughing then!' he said. And that was the last time I watched.

You cannot straddle both sides of the fence. No one alive here owned a slave...I certainly didn't. I don't endorse, condone, or try to explain it. So the fact that I might not get a job based on the color (or lack thereof) of MY skin is institutionalized racism & actually unconstitutional. And if we're talking about what pushes people to identify with their race, well, that's one factor which promts me to identify myself, not as American, not as Italian, but as a white person.

I was in a car crash on Christmas Eve when I was 16. I was in a predominantly black lower middle class neighborhood when I was T boned by a drunk driver. The 40 something year old black lady proceeded to get out of her car & beat the shiznit out of me in front of all the neighbors while they cheered her on with chants of 'Kill Whitey!' 'White Devil B!tch!' and the like. My hands were trapped by my waist and here's this woman punching the shiznit outta my face while I can't even defend myself. I saw the cop lights in the distance and passed out before they got there. When the cops got there, of course no one saw anything & cops said that there was no way to discern what injuries came from the crash, and which from the 'alleged' assault (hi? there's a full fist mark on my face, duh). Cops later told my mom that because of the 'racial tension' in Miami (a Spanish cop has mistakenly killed a black teen who pointed a toy gun, some parts of Miami rioted for 3 days), that if they arrested her for assault, there'd be 'Holy hell'.

That kind of apologistic, walk on eggshells ####### should NOT happen in today's (or in the 90s, heh) day and age. it's complete bollox.

I don't mind scholarships and a help up to our nation's poor....but again, that has nothing to do with race. Inner cities have all sorts of races and ancestry. But programs like AA are run on the basis that somehow they NEED a handout, as if they are deficient in some way. And as we all age out farther and farther away from the atrocities of the past, they become less of a factor. I could certainly say how xy&z happened to my ancestors sometime ago, but what real bearing does that have on me today? Sure, I'm not black, but I do see that this guilt free pass we as a society show perpetrates that very atmosphere we as a society should be moving away from. 'ALL men created equal' and all that jazz.

Edited for typos!

Sorry you went through that. Where was this- Liberty City? Not exactly where you'd want to be on Christmas Eve at 16 years of age but hey I am most definitely not blaming you for the idiots if this world. Drunk ones to add.

Unfortunately, that pent up anger apparently came to hilt with you and as wrong as it was, it happened.

I wonder how many descriptions telling of centuries of similar if not worse violence (not to justify) occured against their communities and I also wonder how that shaped these communities views of the "majority" populations that were legally equal but most definitely not equal, and separate. Again, there is no justification. Violence does not justify violence in my opinion.

It would be peachy if we lived in a country that did not abuse its racial divide and that it did not continue to foster such a divide along the ages, even after such practices were abolished and outlawed, and we can argue that circumstances HAVE changed for the better... just at a very slow pace... while the reality of these areas are that they are still living in poor conditions, disproportionately to the rest of the population, and with a ton of historical and every now and then, assumed racial targetting to add to the mix.

See this is why I will never respect the black American community. If the same thing had happened to a black girl it would have been plastered on TV. I don't even know where to begin discussing this sort of stuff. Can anyone tell me of similar cases involving Caucasians? This double standard is the problem with America. And whenever something like this comes up well then it is stereotypically portrayed as being isolated or carried out by a small group of idiots. I have meet some wonderful black Americans. But they usually tend to live out in the country and in the South. The inner city black Americans are a whole entire different culture.

The only way to describe this Neanderthal like behavior is by culture. Which also probably explains why we are having similar issues with new immigrants from Sudan etc here in Australia; people separated by 400 years from African Americans yet portraying very similar attributes to one another.

Edited May 16, 2008 by Boo-Yah!

[HAL 9000 96]

They do have odds stacked against them. It has been explained to you before- schooling for inner city children is funded disproportionately according to local taxation- primarily more so than the standard amounts dedicated per pupil from the State and Federal level. Sure, you get diamonds in the rough that make their teachers cry with joy, but even some of these kids get sucked in by a system that is stacked against them (poor home life, lack of proper diet at home, poor health care, violence close to home, etc). These are all byproducts of true and historical circumstance.

Note how race is left out of that argument. You are a product of where you come from.

I think you just proved Boo-Yah's point -- race has nothing to do with it.

Poor white kids struggle just as hard as poor black kids do.

It does when placed into context. It is no coincidence that the major inner cities with disproportionate levels of educational funding have a very particular racial makeup. Hence, they do have it stacked against them. {Cause, History}

I don't agree with that. Why have they not moved? There are plenty of jobs in various industries throughout America but they deliberately choose to stay in inner-city ghettos. 20,000,000 illegal immigrants can find a job so I just don't buy it.

I also believe we previously discussed this elsewhere. I think you are going to have to prove that its personal choice on this one. Otherwise you should add very carefully selected fragments of speech such as "it is my opinion that they" immediately preceding what you have in bold there. Then again, you should also try to equate your assertion that if illegals can do it (and and also mention how employers would preferentially hire- at a higher rate of pay, mind you, non-illegals... but that is, you got it- a tangent we don't need in this current discussion), then so can inner city folk.

And finally, for those that do choose to leave the cities and look for all those plenty of jobs, how are they to qualify if they lack the academic and/or vocational training that would likely be necessary? And how are they guaranteed job placement after [somehow] paying for relocation costs on their own? Also, are the wages they will be earning enough to sustain their household, promote positive living conditions at home, and stimulate ... advancement?

These should be questions easy enough to address within the logical framework of this topic. It seems that all that criticism of the NAACP was not really justified if improvement is all you are really interested in.

[Heracles 417]

Len, Len, Len. Some people seem to be proving Dr James D. Watson theory lately.

[Jack and Barbara 0]

See this is why I will never respect the black American community. If the same thing had happened to a black girl it would have been plastered on TV. I don't even know where to begin discussing this sort of stuff. Can anyone tell me of similar cases involving Caucasians? This double standard is the problem with America. And whenever something like this comes up well then it is stereotypically portrayed as being isolated or carried out by a small group of idiots. I have meet some wonderful black Americans. But they usually tend to live out in the country and in the South. The inner city black Americans are a whole entire different culture.

The only way to describe this Neanderthal like behavior is by culture. Which also probably explains why we are having similar issues with new immigrants from Sudan etc here in Australia; people separated by 400 years from African Americans yet portraying very similar attributes to one another.

Come again?

[Empress of Groovy 373]

See this is why I will never respect the black American community. If the same thing had happened to a black girl it would have been plastered on TV. I don't even know where to begin discussing this sort of stuff. Can anyone tell me of similar cases involving Caucasians? This double standard is the problem with America. And whenever something like this comes up well then it is stereotypically portrayed as being isolated or carried out by a small group of idiots. I have meet some wonderful black Americans. But they usually tend to live out in the country and in the South. The inner city black Americans are a whole entire different culture.

The only way to describe this Neanderthal like behavior is by culture. Which also probably explains why we are having similar issues with new immigrants from Sudan etc here in Australia; people separated by 400 years from African Americans yet portraying very similar attributes to one another.

You're right. You don't.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Neanderthal culture - that's a good one. File that with "do you ever wonder why the KKK got started".

[HAL 9000 96]

completely uncalled for and totally offensive.

the KKK endorsing McC doesn't make him a racist anymore than AQ 'endorsing' O makes him a terrorist...

Maybe that's what is at issue here - this perception that anything positive for a minority is a "punishment" for a non-minority.

No, its racist in the premise that because your skin is black, you need a handout.

If there is to truly be equality, AA needs to stop.

When racism stops perpetuating inequalities, as well as when advancement can be statistically relevant, then yes, AA must stop.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

See this is why I will never respect the black American community. If the same thing had happened to a black girl it would have been plastered on TV. I don't even know where to begin discussing this sort of stuff. Can anyone tell me of similar cases involving Caucasians? This double standard is the problem with America. And whenever something like this comes up well then it is stereotypically portrayed as being isolated or carried out by a small group of idiots. I have meet some wonderful black Americans. But they usually tend to live out in the country and in the South. The inner city black Americans are a whole entire different culture.

The only way to describe this Neanderthal like behavior is by culture. Which also probably explains why we are having similar issues with new immigrants from Sudan etc here in Australia; people separated by 400 years from African Americans yet portraying very similar attributes to one another.

Come again?

Yep - because he reads something like this and blames an entire community for it. However you explain it he'll never accept that this line of reasoning is very wonky.

Incidentally BY mentioned the Sudanese immigrants before - stating with apparent pride that these people had integrated into the fabric of Australian society without any trouble. He was proved wrong.

Edited May 16, 2008 by Number 6