82% of Americans (and 62% of Republicans) believe the country is on the wrong track

[HAL 9000 96]

Gary, your sleight-of-hand trickery is amusing. We were discussing whether the Patriotic Act was a good piece of legislation or not and then you come up with - well, it passed the litmus test of constitutionality so end of discussion. Can you not see how laughable that is?

Which is one aspect of blind faith I find *disturbing.* Very difficult to convince based on logic... not really laughable beyond the scope of an internet thread...

[GaryC 7]

Gary, your sleight-of-hand trickery is amusing. We were discussing whether the Patriotic Act was a good piece of legislation or not and then you come up with - well, it passed the litmus test of constitutionality so end of discussion. Can you not see how laughable that is?

No, I was countering your contention that it violated our rights and is somehow a stain on Bush's record. I personally think its a great law and fully support it. We are arguing two different things but I guess you forgot that. Try and keep up.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Gary, your sleight-of-hand trickery is amusing. We were discussing whether the Patriotic Act was a good piece of legislation or not and then you come up with - well, it passed the litmus test of constitutionality so end of discussion. Can you not see how laughable that is?

Which is one aspect of blind faith I find *disturbing.* Very difficult to convince based on logic... not really laughable beyond the scope of an internet thread...

I can just imagine Gary speaking up when the abortion issue comes up and saying, "Well the Supreme Court ruled on it and that is that."

[GaryC 7]

Gary, your sleight-of-hand trickery is amusing. We were discussing whether the Patriotic Act was a good piece of legislation or not and then you come up with - well, it passed the litmus test of constitutionality so end of discussion. Can you not see how laughable that is?

Which is one aspect of blind faith I find *disturbing.* Very difficult to convince based on logic... not really laughable beyond the scope of an internet thread...

You need to try and keep up also.

Gary, your sleight-of-hand trickery is amusing. We were discussing whether the Patriotic Act was a good piece of legislation or not and then you come up with - well, it passed the litmus test of constitutionality so end of discussion. Can you not see how laughable that is?

Which is one aspect of blind faith I find *disturbing.* Very difficult to convince based on logic... not really laughable beyond the scope of an internet thread...

I can just imagine Gary speaking up when the abortion issue comes up and saying, "Well the Supreme Court ruled on it and that is that."

That is exactly my position. I personally don't like the ruling but since the SC said so then that is it. When have you ever seen me say anything different? Stop making things up in your mind and applying them to me.

[HAL 9000 96]

Actually, checks and balances are the last word. Granted, political will tends to follow the SC as it is hoped that it be politically neutral, but we do know better than that.

Hence the Patriot Act received a pass last time in front of the SC.

No, the SC is the last word in regards to the constitutionality of a particular bill. Once the SC weighs in on it the only thing congress or the people can do is to ammend the constitution. The Patriot Act got a pass because there is nothing in it that violates the constitution. That is, after all, the function of the SC, to judge if something violates the constitution.

Notice how I am not in disagreement and I have even stated quite clearly that although the SC is absolutely NOT the final resting place of constitutional power, political will usually ends up running into a de facto wall when dealing with SC decisions. Hence, you should be writing "yes" instead of "no."

Ok, then tell me. Where is the final resting place of constitutional power? Unless of course you refering to the ability for congress to ammend the constitution with the ratification of 2/3 of the states.

You answered your own question.

Gary, your sleight-of-hand trickery is amusing. We were discussing whether the Patriotic Act was a good piece of legislation or not and then you come up with - well, it passed the litmus test of constitutionality so end of discussion. Can you not see how laughable that is?

Which is one aspect of blind faith I find *disturbing.* Very difficult to convince based on logic... not really laughable beyond the scope of an internet thread...

You need to try and keep up also.

Gary, your sleight-of-hand trickery is amusing. We were discussing whether the Patriotic Act was a good piece of legislation or not and then you come up with - well, it passed the litmus test of constitutionality so end of discussion. Can you not see how laughable that is?

Which is one aspect of blind faith I find *disturbing.* Very difficult to convince based on logic... not really laughable beyond the scope of an internet thread...

I can just imagine Gary speaking up when the abortion issue comes up and saying, "Well the Supreme Court ruled on it and that is that."

That is exactly my position. I personally don't like the ruling but since the SC said so then that is it. When have you ever seen me say anything different? Stop making things up in your mind and applying them to me.

Keep up with the actual verbiage, like I very bluntly redirected you to Merriam-Webster for the definition of the word "circumvent."

[GaryC 7]

Actually, checks and balances are the last word. Granted, political will tends to follow the SC as it is hoped that it be politically neutral, but we do know better than that.

Hence the Patriot Act received a pass last time in front of the SC.

No, the SC is the last word in regards to the constitutionality of a particular bill. Once the SC weighs in on it the only thing congress or the people can do is to ammend the constitution. The Patriot Act got a pass because there is nothing in it that violates the constitution. That is, after all, the function of the SC, to judge if something violates the constitution.

Notice how I am not in disagreement and I have even stated quite clearly that although the SC is absolutely NOT the final resting place of constitutional power, political will usually ends up running into a de facto wall when dealing with SC decisions. Hence, you should be writing "yes" instead of "no."

Ok, then tell me. Where is the final resting place of constitutional power? Unless of course you refering to the ability for congress to ammend the constitution with the ratification of 2/3 of the states.

You answered your own question.

I already knew that (obviously) but since an ammendment is very rare the in practice the SC has the final word.

You need to tell that to Steven, he apparently didn't catch that in government class.

Edited May 13, 2008 by GaryC

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Gary, I suppose we could split the issue into several categories, but one thing is for certain - support or criticism of the Patriot Act has divided the Republican Party.

Conservatives Calling for Repeal or Examination of USA PATRIOT Act

Conservatives, who have traditionally stood for limited government and individual liberty, are as concerned about the USA PATRIOT Act and related legislation as liberals. Prominent conservative groups and individuals against the Act include:

* Groups:

o The Cato Institute

o Free Congress Foundation

o Patriots to Restore Checks and Balances

* Individuals:

o ####### Armey, former Republican member of Congress

o Bob Barr, former Republican member of Congress (American Conservative Union, Patriots to Restore Checks and Balances)

o David Keene (President of the American Conservative Union)

o Peyton Knight (American Policy Center)

o Grover Norquist (President of Americans for Tax Reform)

o Rep. Ron Paul (R-TX)

o William Safire (columnist for the New York Times)

o Phyllis Schlafly (founder of the Eagle Forum)

o Lori Waters (Executive Director of the Eagle Forum)

http://www.bordc.org/resources/conservative.php

[GaryC 7]

Gary, I suppose we could split the issue into several categories, but one thing is for certain - support or criticism of the Patriot Act has divided the Republican Party.

Conservatives Calling for Repeal or Examination of USA PATRIOT Act

Conservatives, who have traditionally stood for limited government and individual liberty, are as concerned about the USA PATRIOT Act and related legislation as liberals. Prominent conservative groups and individuals against the Act include:

* Groups:

o The Cato Institute

o Free Congress Foundation

o Patriots to Restore Checks and Balances

* Individuals:

o ####### Armey, former Republican member of Congress

o Bob Barr, former Republican member of Congress (American Conservative Union, Patriots to Restore Checks and Balances)

o David Keene (President of the American Conservative Union)

o Peyton Knight (American Policy Center)

o Grover Norquist (President of Americans for Tax Reform)

o Rep. Ron Paul (R-TX)

o William Safire (columnist for the New York Times)

o Phyllis Schlafly (founder of the Eagle Forum)

o Lori Waters (Executive Director of the Eagle Forum)

http://www.bordc.org/resources/conservative.php

And your point is? I was asked what I thought of it. I said I liked it. You proceded to make it look like the Patriot Act was tearing up the constitution. I pointed out that the SC said it didn't. Your circular logic is making me dizzy.

[Sheriff Uling 3]

I can just imagine Gary speaking up when the abortion issue comes up and saying, "Well the Supreme Court ruled on it and that is that."

If Gary is a true conservative, then no the SC's ruling on abortion will never be settled until it's overturned. That's really my only gripe with conservative republican views beyond the image problem created by policy choices that alienate middle to lower class citizens.

[mawilson 2,133]

Show me where the constitution prohibits the Patriot Act. Oh wait, the SC said it was constitutinal. And wait, the dem congress kept renewing it! How can that be?

The Fourth Amendment -- reasonable expectation of privacy, freedom from unreasonable searches and seizures.

That means the government should stay the #### away from my bank account.

[HAL 9000 96]

Show me where the constitution prohibits the Patriot Act. Oh wait, the SC said it was constitutinal. And wait, the dem congress kept renewing it! How can that be?

The Fourth Amendment -- reasonable expectation of privacy, freedom from unreasonable searches and seizures.

That means the government should stay the #### away from my bank account.

Mr. Mawilson, we will contact you shortly for a bank account audit.

[GaryC 7]

I can just imagine Gary speaking up when the abortion issue comes up and saying, "Well the Supreme Court ruled on it and that is that."

If Gary is a true conservative, then no the SC's ruling on abortion will never be settled until it's overturned. That's really my only gripe with conservative republican views beyond the image problem created by policy choices that alienate middle to lower class citizens.

I think for myself. I personally don't like abortion but if it's legal and the SC says its a womans right then I respect it. There are a lot of things I don't like but do respect because our system of government gives that right. I am not the kind that will try and tell a woman what she can or cannot do. My personal feelings are not injected into the argument.

Show me where the constitution prohibits the Patriot Act. Oh wait, the SC said it was constitutinal. And wait, the dem congress kept renewing it! How can that be?

The Fourth Amendment -- reasonable expectation of privacy, freedom from unreasonable searches and seizures.

That means the government should stay the #### away from my bank account.

The SC said that the Patriot Act does not violate that ammendment. And I don't remember any verbage in the 4th ammendment that refers to a reasonable expectation of privacy.

[mawilson 2,133]

Gary, What is your opinion about 'Patriot' act?

I like it. It was a very good idea. *stands back for the expected sh!t storm*

Like I said, this election is over before it even started.

Yeah, that's what I thought in 2004, and look what happened.

Don't scare me like that. Well, actually, I am trying to line up opportunities in Canada and Ireland as a contingency.

What I don't understand is why it took Americans so f*cking long to to wake up to the damage

inflicted by GWB and finally see what has been painfully obvious to the rest of the world.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

What I don't understand is why it took Americans so f*cking long to to wake up to the damage

inflicted by GWB and finally see what has been painfully obvious to the rest of the world.

Fear can do funny things to people...a great manipulator motivator.

[HAL 9000 96]

Gary, What is your opinion about 'Patriot' act?

I like it. It was a very good idea. *stands back for the expected sh!t storm*

Like I said, this election is over before it even started.

Yeah, that's what I thought in 2004, and look what happened.

Don't scare me like that. Well, actually, I am trying to line up opportunities in Canada and Ireland as a contingency.

What I don't understand is why it took Americans so f*cking long to to wake up to the damage

inflicted by GWB and finally see what has been painfully obvious to the rest of the world.

Because this is America, dangit!