82% of Americans (and 62% of Republicans) believe the country is on the wrong track

[Sheriff Uling 3]

Yep, thats Obama. Most people that are not on the left will see him that way when it's over.

Not to mention, I'm not sure that he can sell it to the people. He may well be in trouble in the fall... even more than you are willing to admit.

I think thats the whole issue in a nutshell. McCain cannot deliver a message like Obama can. He doesn't really look confident when he speaks like Obama, even if he is. These may seem like superficial attributes to judge a President on, but they will play. Especially with the millions of more registered Democrats- thats the part that has me really doubting McCain's chances. How many new Registered Republicans do we have?

Not enough! The reason is because they pander to the rich, lobbyist, and elite, which excludes many Americans. The republican conservative message is solid, but it's hard to play to a lesser audience when the party leaders are comprised of self-righteous snobs. Even a great message can get lost in the weeds, and that's the I hear around the water cooler. The republican party has an image problem with the common people, and they have not done enough in policy changes to help bridge the gap. If the economy wasn't bad, common folk would not receive a dime in tax breaks.

Edited May 13, 2008 by Sheriff Uling

[HAL 9000 96]

Yep, thats Obama. Most people that are not on the left will see him that way when it's over.

Not to mention, I'm not sure that he can sell it to the people. He may well be in trouble in the fall... even more than you are willing to admit.

I think thats the whole issue in a nutshell. McCain cannot deliver a message like Obama can. He doesn't really look confident when he speaks like Obama, even if he is. These may seem like superficial attributes to judge a President on, but they will play. Especially with the millions of more registered Democrats- thats the part that has me really doubting McCain's chances. How many new Registered Republicans do we have?

He will get the rep vote since the alternative is so distastful. He will also get the moderate vote. They don't like hard liners of either stripe. There is no way for the Obama camp to spin his record. He is hard left.

Distasteful for you perhaps... but certainly not close to the majority of even Republicans, according to the numbers in the OP. Politics aside... according to the OP's numbers... only 18% of Americans. Rest assured, you're not that alone in your thinking.

[dalegg 143]

Yep, thats Obama. Most people that are not on the left will see him that way when it's over.

Not to mention, I'm not sure that he can sell it to the people. He may well be in trouble in the fall... even more than you are willing to admit.

I think thats the whole issue in a nutshell. McCain cannot deliver a message like Obama can. He doesn't really look confident when he speaks like Obama, even if he is. These may seem like superficial attributes to judge a President on, but they will play. Especially with the millions of more registered Democrats- thats the part that has me really doubting McCain's chances. How many new Registered Republicans do we have?

And how many Registered Republicans played into Operation Chaos? Come November, they'll only be able to vote one way or another. Some may just like to vote for Obama since they played one game already... but more realistically, Operation Chaos and all aside, its numbers are undoubtedly not enough to account for much come general elections.

I believe the numbers are very minimal, which by the way is something I find Ironic. For all the chaos Rush hoped to cause in the Democratic primaries, the vast majority of the problem was "caused" by the democratic voters themselves. Look at West Virginia. I've read time after time how Democratic voters are growing tired of these primaries and concerned about the impacts of drawing it out. If they were so concerned they would have just all voted for Obama in Pennslyvania and Indiana, but they didn't. That kind of says something.

[HAL 9000 96]

Gary, What is your opinion about 'Patriot' act?

I like it. It was a very good idea. *stands back for the expected sh!t storm*

Agreed! The Patriot Act was a very good idea. It's the ultra liberals who attempt to find fault in this act. Democracy comes at a price and the ultra liberals have tried to derail the Patriot Act by scaring the American people into believing that Big Brother would misuse it's powers.

Damn ultra liberals. Matter of fact, damn all liberals!!!

The Patriot act isn't anything new. The only difference is that now we have it down on paper so it can be controlled. The much beloved FDR went way beyond anything in the Patriot Act during WW2. You do know that during the war we actively cencored all mail leaving and coming into the country? I remember seeing love letters from my uncle written to my aunt during the war. It had an official seal of the war censors on the outside and there were whole sentences cut out if he happened to mention where he was or where he thought he was going next. In the 60's JFK had the FBI and the CIA spying on any group he thought was subversive. How soon we forget. I guess the only time it's acceptable is when a dem is doing it and the only time it isn't acceptable is when a rep is doing it. Remember your history.

Which is precisely why those pesky liberals have decided to stand up against such practices all along. For those that got duped into it, well, most have paid for such stupidity politically. Then again, Sedition Acts, War Powers Acts, and civil surveillance campaigns haven't been anything new- making you absolutely right. Where you stray from a more linear form of reason is in assuming that it was wrong in retrospect to have it then and then justify it now based on politics or a false sense of necessity.

Diplomacy works.

False sense of necessity? Really? Views like that will get us all killed. The Patriot Act has saved us from further attacks. Diplomacy works? When? What major conflict has ever been solved with diplomacy? Especially when you talking to nut jobs like the president of Iran!

Intelligence and adequate, pin point military strikes to wonders, Gary. Diplomacy works where blunt force idiocy creates future generations of maniacs ready to blow themselves up at out footsteps.

Now here again is yet another example of the need for more logical thinking: you can't get solve a major conflict with diplomacy because that means diplomacy failed.

Now, where has diplomacy worked?

Think back. Nuclear weapons anti-proliferation can be a good starting point.

BS. We won the cold war because Reagan out spent the USSR. The treaties were signed only because they knew they couldn't keep up. They relented at the point of a sword not because of diplomacy.

Interesting, yet not exactly the reality of using the diplomatic sword.

[dalegg 143]

The republican conservative message is solid, but it's hard to play to a lesser audience when the party leaders are comprised of self-righteous snobs.

I don't actually have to type the response to this do I?

[GaryC 7]

Yep, thats Obama. Most people that are not on the left will see him that way when it's over.

Not to mention, I'm not sure that he can sell it to the people. He may well be in trouble in the fall... even more than you are willing to admit.

I think thats the whole issue in a nutshell. McCain cannot deliver a message like Obama can. He doesn't really look confident when he speaks like Obama, even if he is. These may seem like superficial attributes to judge a President on, but they will play. Especially with the millions of more registered Democrats- thats the part that has me really doubting McCain's chances. How many new Registered Republicans do we have?

He will get the rep vote since the alternative is so distastful. He will also get the moderate vote. They don't like hard liners of either stripe. There is no way for the Obama camp to spin his record. He is hard left.

Distasteful for you perhaps... but certainly not close to the majority of even Republicans, according to the numbers in the OP. Politics aside... according to the OP's numbers... only 18% of Americans. Rest assured, you're not that alone in your thinking.

Apples and oranges in regards to the OP. Just because the people don't like the direction we are currently going does not mean they want the direction Obama is promising. Your dream of debating the issues will soon start. When it does those that haven't been paying attention to Obamas record will see what he is. A hard left idealog. That will not play at all to the right and it will give those in the center real reason to think twice about voting for him.

[HAL 9000 96]

I believe the numbers are very minimal, which by the way is something I find Ironic. For all the chaos Rush hoped to cause in the Democratic primaries, the vast majority of the problem was "caused" by the democratic voters themselves. Look at West Virginia. I've read time after time how Democratic voters are growing tired of these primaries and concerned about the impacts of drawing it out. If they were so concerned they would have just all voted for Obama in Pennslyvania and Indiana, but they didn't. That kind of says something.

Yes it tells me something as well. Demographics aside, we deserve whom we vote for. That says a lot in itself. And yes... the numbers I also agree to be quite minimal from chaos. Nevertheless, I do not underestimate the destructive and divisive nature of dirty politics.

[Sheriff Uling 3]

The republican conservative message is solid, but it's hard to play to a lesser audience when the party leaders are comprised of self-righteous snobs.

I don't actually have to type the response to this do I?

No... but you could. How the hell are ya anyway?

[GaryC 7]

I believe the numbers are very minimal, which by the way is something I find Ironic. For all the chaos Rush hoped to cause in the Democratic primaries, the vast majority of the problem was "caused" by the democratic voters themselves. Look at West Virginia. I've read time after time how Democratic voters are growing tired of these primaries and concerned about the impacts of drawing it out. If they were so concerned they would have just all voted for Obama in Pennslyvania and Indiana, but they didn't. That kind of says something.

Yes it tells me something as well. Demographics aside, we deserve whom we vote for. That says a lot in itself. And yes... the numbers I also agree to be quite minimal from chaos. Nevertheless, I do not underestimate the destructive and divisive nature of dirty politics.

Personal question Mav. How old are you? Understanding your POV really depends on what you have experienced first hand and what you know only from history.

[HAL 9000 96]

Yep, thats Obama. Most people that are not on the left will see him that way when it's over.

Not to mention, I'm not sure that he can sell it to the people. He may well be in trouble in the fall... even more than you are willing to admit.

I think thats the whole issue in a nutshell. McCain cannot deliver a message like Obama can. He doesn't really look confident when he speaks like Obama, even if he is. These may seem like superficial attributes to judge a President on, but they will play. Especially with the millions of more registered Democrats- thats the part that has me really doubting McCain's chances. How many new Registered Republicans do we have?

He will get the rep vote since the alternative is so distastful. He will also get the moderate vote. They don't like hard liners of either stripe. There is no way for the Obama camp to spin his record. He is hard left.

Distasteful for you perhaps... but certainly not close to the majority of even Republicans, according to the numbers in the OP. Politics aside... according to the OP's numbers... only 18% of Americans. Rest assured, you're not that alone in your thinking.

Apples and oranges in regards to the OP. Just because the people don't like the direction we are currently going does not mean they want the direction Obama is promising. Your dream of debating the issues will soon start. When it does those that haven't been paying attention to Obamas record will see what he is. A hard left idealog. That will not play at all to the right and it will give those in the center real reason to think twice about voting for him.

Again... the statement is quite clear- "according" connotes one thing.

As for what the time up to November, we shall see Gary. Somehow, I trust more the BS that poll after poll after poll, what you support (blindly or not), is not what the upcoming electorate will choose to continue. So, I guess that will mean you will have to either suck it up or continue griping about it.

[HAL 9000 96]

I believe the numbers are very minimal, which by the way is something I find Ironic. For all the chaos Rush hoped to cause in the Democratic primaries, the vast majority of the problem was "caused" by the democratic voters themselves. Look at West Virginia. I've read time after time how Democratic voters are growing tired of these primaries and concerned about the impacts of drawing it out. If they were so concerned they would have just all voted for Obama in Pennslyvania and Indiana, but they didn't. That kind of says something.

Yes it tells me something as well. Demographics aside, we deserve whom we vote for. That says a lot in itself. And yes... the numbers I also agree to be quite minimal from chaos. Nevertheless, I do not underestimate the destructive and divisive nature of dirty politics.

Personal question Mav. How old are you? Understanding your POV really depends on what you have experienced first hand and what you know only from history.

Old enough to have voted in more than 2 presidential elections.

As for understanding a POV, it also depends on what kind of indoctrination we've been exposed to. Lucky me, I have been exposed to pretty much most POVs without sticking to one over the rest.

[dalegg 143]

The republican conservative message is solid, but it's hard to play to a lesser audience when the party leaders are comprised of self-righteous snobs.

I don't actually have to type the response to this do I?

No... but you could. How the hell are ya anyway?

I'm good. Trying to create a prodigy, but not having much luck. Damn doctors.

Let's just say that my image of a self righteous snob is an inconvenient truth.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

It's funny how you'll defend the Patriot Act as some monumental piece of legislation that made our country more secure...and who exactly forged the Patriot Act? A 36 yr. old guy named, Viet Dinh, an immigrant from Vietnam.

The 911 Commission Report, on the other hand, was drafted by a bipartisan committee that looked thoroughly into what we could do to prevent future terrorists attacks...and guess what, Gary and Sheriff...the Bush Administration basically scoffed at the reports recommendations. And you know why? Because it was critical of the Patriot Act as well as the way the WH had conducted itself...tsk, tsk. How do you like them apples?

Thursday 22 July 2004

Washington - The official 9/11 Commission report, released today, takes aim at the USA Patriot Act and the excessive amount of official secrecy in the Bush administration.

"Regarding civil liberties, the 9/11 Commission report essentially says that the Justice Department and White House have not made a compelling case for either the administration’s obsession with secrecy or its Patriot Act," said Anthony D. Romero, ACLU Executive Director. "This bipartisan report should serve as a wake-up call for Congress that it must maintain the sunsets in the Patriot Act."

As the report states on page 394, "The burden of proof for retaining a particular governmental power should be on the executive, to explain (a) that the power actually materially enhances security and (B) that there is adequate supervision of the executive’s use of the powers to ensure protection of civil liberties. If the power is granted, there must be adequate guidelines and oversight to properly confine its use."

The long-awaited report, which contains the official findings of the independent commission investigating the 9/11 terrorism attacks, contains significant recommendations germane to the debate over civil liberties that has raged for more than two-and-a-half years now.

The report echoes criticisms by the ACLU and others that the Justice Department has so far failed to demonstrate why the expanded surveillance and investigative powers in the Patriot Act are needed to fight terrorism. The commission’s findings, the ACLU said, strongly confirm the need to maintain the Patriot Act sunsets.

The sunset provisions - which apply to some of the Patriot Act’s most controversial provisions - would require Congress to reconsider about a tenth of the law in December 2005. Provisions that sunset include the infamous "library records" provision, which reduces judicial review when counter-intelligence agents seek secret court orders for the production of a wide array of personal information, including library, business, genetic, medical and even gun purchase records.

Notably, the commission does not recommend that any sunseted provisions should be made permanent.

In addition, the commission’s report contains a list of 10 separate missed "operational" opportunities to foil the attacks. While the report stops short of calling the attacks preventable, it clearly shows that the intelligence and law enforcement communities were not using their existing counter-terrorism powers to their fullest potential.

"The administration has yet to explain why it didn’t use its already expansive power to the fullest before 9/11," said Laura W. Murphy, Director of the ACLU Washington Legislative Office. "The commission’s report suggests that the White House claim that the worst parts of the Patriot Act are needed to stop terrorism is dubious, to say the least."

The report also cites both excessive government secrecy and overclassification as threats to open government and, more notably, as threats to national security. The ACLU pointed to the finding as evidence that the government should stop stonewalling the series of Freedom of Information Act requests submitted by the ACLU and other civil liberties groups on the Patriot Act, the Abu Ghraib scandal and other matters of public interest.

Characterizing the current Congressional intelligence watchdog system as "dysfunctional," the commission’s strongest recommendation is the need for more aggressive Congressional oversight of the intelligence community, including making the intelligence budget public. The ACLU applauded the move but emphasized that the structure of the committee would be less important than whether its operation was in turn open to public scrutiny.

As the report stated: "Secrecy stifles oversight, accountability and information sharing. Unfortunately, all the current organizational incentives encourage over-classification. This balance should change; and as a start, open information should be provided about the overall size of agency intelligence budgets."

Contrary to earlier reports, the commission explicitly rejects - in part, for civil liberties reasons - the creation of a domestic intelligence agency modeled after Britain’s MI-5. The ACLU, a critic of any domestic intelligence activity that is not linked to law enforcement, applauded the move.

http://www.truthout.org/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/32/5355

[HAL 9000 96]

Mention not that blasphemous 911 report... We are at war Steven! Suck it up and do your part for the good of our lives before those Arabs come blowin' themselves up at our doorstep.

[GaryC 7]

Yep, thats Obama. Most people that are not on the left will see him that way when it's over.

Not to mention, I'm not sure that he can sell it to the people. He may well be in trouble in the fall... even more than you are willing to admit.

I think thats the whole issue in a nutshell. McCain cannot deliver a message like Obama can. He doesn't really look confident when he speaks like Obama, even if he is. These may seem like superficial attributes to judge a President on, but they will play. Especially with the millions of more registered Democrats- thats the part that has me really doubting McCain's chances. How many new Registered Republicans do we have?

He will get the rep vote since the alternative is so distastful. He will also get the moderate vote. They don't like hard liners of either stripe. There is no way for the Obama camp to spin his record. He is hard left.

Distasteful for you perhaps... but certainly not close to the majority of even Republicans, according to the numbers in the OP. Politics aside... according to the OP's numbers... only 18% of Americans. Rest assured, you're not that alone in your thinking.

Apples and oranges in regards to the OP. Just because the people don't like the direction we are currently going does not mean they want the direction Obama is promising. Your dream of debating the issues will soon start. When it does those that haven't been paying attention to Obamas record will see what he is. A hard left idealog. That will not play at all to the right and it will give those in the center real reason to think twice about voting for him.

Again... the statement is quite clear- "according" connotes one thing.

As for what the time up to November, we shall see Gary. Somehow, I trust more the BS that poll after poll after poll, what you support (blindly or not), is not what the upcoming electorate will choose to continue. So, I guess that will mean you will have to either suck it up or continue griping about it.

It's simple logic. It is indisputable that Obama's voting record is hard left. I can post his entire voting record if you want to dispute that. Despite his charm no one on the right that is aware of that record will vote for him, in fact they will turn out in droves to see him defeated. Not because they love McCain but because they don't want this country run by a hard lefty like Obama. Those that call themselves moderates will also have reason to pause when they get to know Obama and his record. They will have a choice of a hard lefty and someone that has a demonstratible record of working with both sides. I think they will choose someone that best reflects their "moderate" values and vote for McCain. Please point out the flaws in my logic if you can.