82% of Americans (and 62% of Republicans) believe the country is on the wrong track

[HAL 9000 96]

Which specific liberties have you, personally, or anyone you know or can name, lost?

Oh God, where do I begin?

How about

• the "no fly" list that bans certain people from flying
• US citizens harassed by immigration and customs
• millions of Americans assigned terrorism risk scores without their knowledge
• secret wiretapping and monitoring of US citizens' overseas communications
• data mining and consolidation of government databases

If this bothers you then, clearly, you have something to hide.

Yes, brother mawilson must be a closet terrorist. I will alert the authorities at this moment.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

There is an old adage, the good of the many out weighs the good of the few.

I thought it was from Star Trek 2?

Edited May 13, 2008 by Number 6

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Why not open the borders, give away trade secrets, military tactics, access codes, sovereignty, or better eliminate the constitution and bill of rights? There are reasons why these safeguards exist. Please try not to focus on your individual desires and that of the body of people that make up our citizenry.

What Jabbawacky is saying is that small-time terrorism isn't as big of a threat as they would have you believe.

It if was... and the government really cared about it, would they really leave the borders unprotected?

Think about it: if the Big Bad Suicide-Bomber Terrorist is comin' 't git'cha, wouldn't securing the borders be their first priority?

You would think so....

[Ban Hammer 13,355]

Why not open the borders, give away trade secrets, military tactics, access codes, sovereignty, or better eliminate the constitution and bill of rights? There are reasons why these safeguards exist. Please try not to focus on your individual desires and that of the body of people that make up our citizenry.

What Jabbawacky is saying is that small-time terrorism isn't as big of a threat as they would have you believe.

It if was... and the government really cared about it, would they really leave the borders unprotected?

Think about it: if the Big Bad Suicide-Bomber Terrorist is comin' 't git'cha, wouldn't securing the borders be their first priority?

Unless they know something you don't....

the terrorist event that sparked the patriot act involved the deaths of over 3000 people and millions, if not billions of dollars in damage, and many more at ground zero have developed respiratory problems from that day. is this what you call small time?

Edited May 13, 2008 by charlesandnessa

[mawilson 2,133]

the terrorist event that sparked the patriot act involved the deaths of over 3000 people and millions, if not billions of dollars in damage, and many more at ground zero have developed respiratory problems from that day. is this what you call small time?

No, 9/11 was not small time and took years to plan. It would be virtually impossible to perpetrate

an attack of this magnitude in a post-9/11 USA -- people are much more vigilant these days.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

This goes to show that the Republican Party isn't as united as Gary and others wish it to be. Ron Paul has a loyal following. There are many conservatives who are pi$$ed off for what the neo-cons have done to the Party, by embracing an over-reaching government. We could start off with at least a reasonable dialogue about national security if we focused on the recommendations and criticisms of the 911 Commission, but instead we've got a few here that have openly accepted the Patriot Act as if an edict from God Himself. The reality is the Patriotic Act was authored by a Vietnamese immigrant (which I think is relevant) and has been thoroughly discredited by many conservative think tanks such as the Cato Institute. It's another example of the Bush Administration completely ignoring expert opinion and advice, replacing it with their brand of what they see fit - "don't confuse them with fact." So be it. The polls have shown time and again that an overwhelming majority of Americans are dissatisfied with the direction this country is in, feel less safe, and less optimistic about the future. This is one more political dagger in the side of McCain - for those who can't imagine some Republicans voting for Obama, by deducing that he is more left, cannot see the forest for the trees - for many true conservatives, their civil liberties are very important to them and if McCain plans to continue Bush's policies on national security, you can bet that many will be voting for Obama in November.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

There is an old adage, the good of the many out weighs the good of the few.

There is indeed. And I firmly believe that to be the case. What I don't believe is that this whole "war on terror" hype in general and the Patriot Act specifically serves the good of the many.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

the terrorist event that sparked the patriot act involved the deaths of over 3000 people and millions, if not billions of dollars in damage, and many more at ground zero have developed respiratory problems from that day. is this what you call small time?

No, 9/11 was not small time and took years to plan. It would be virtually impossible to perpetrate

an attack of this magnitude in a post-9/11 USA -- people are much more vigilant these days.

I've always wondered why there haven't been more incidents like the train bombings in Madrid and London. You see the crowds of people swarming the platforms at Penn Station, Liverpool Street or Waterloo in rush hour - surely there's not really much that the police could do in terms of security - at least not without paralysing the whole infrastructure.

[Ban Hammer 13,355]

the terrorist event that sparked the patriot act involved the deaths of over 3000 people and millions, if not billions of dollars in damage, and many more at ground zero have developed respiratory problems from that day. is this what you call small time?

No, 9/11 was not small time and took years to plan. It would be virtually impossible to perpetrate

an attack of this magnitude in a post-9/11 USA -- people are much more vigilant these days.

i'd never characterize a repeat event as impossible.

[Jack and Barbara 0]

More terrorist attacks are bound to happen eventually. Even though we might be fooled into believing it is because we did not permanently renew the strictest form of the Patriot Act with no warrants for wiretapping and the like, it would more likely be due to poor border control and lax security at airports. All it takes is one sick individual to wreak havoc in a metro or busy city location to remind us of how lucky we have been since 9/11.

Suicide bombings are common in various regions of the world and have thankfully not caught on yet here in the States.

[HAL 9000 96]

There is an old adage, the good of the many out weighs the good of the few.

I thought it was from Star Trek 2?

More so that really sounds like a Communist slogan...

[HAL 9000 96]

More terrorist attacks are bound to happen eventually. Even though we might be fooled into believing it is because we did not permanently renew the strictest form of the Patriot Act with no warrants for wiretapping and the like, it would more likely be due to poor border control and lax security at airports. All it takes is one sick individual to wreak havoc in a metro or busy city location to remind us of how lucky we have been since 9/11.

Suicide bombings are common in various regions of the world and have thankfully not caught on yet here in the States.

Sure. We've at least ensured the creation of future animosity against us in Iraq.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

There is an old adage, the good of the many out weighs the good of the few.

I thought it was from Star Trek 2?

More so that really sounds like a Communist slogan...

It also quite accurately describes the problem with democratic elections - majority rules and all that, whether that losing minority is 10% or 49%.

[Jack and Barbara 0]

There is an old adage, the good of the many out weighs the good of the few.

I thought it was from Star Trek 2?

More so that really sounds like a Communist slogan...

It also quite accurately describes the problem with democratic elections - majority rules and all that, whether that losing minority is 10% or 49%.

My fiancee brought up an interesting point. She cannot understand how the U.S. which prides itself on democracy does not, in fact, have a democratic election. In her country, and numerous others abroad, there are 2 elections. The first involves any number of candidates and then the top two go to a second run-off election whereby everyone votes again and the winner is elected.

[mawilson 2,133]

the terrorist event that sparked the patriot act involved the deaths of over 3000 people and millions, if not billions of dollars in damage, and many more at ground zero have developed respiratory problems from that day. is this what you call small time?

No, 9/11 was not small time and took years to plan. It would be virtually impossible to perpetrate

an attack of this magnitude in a post-9/11 USA -- people are much more vigilant these days.

I've always wondered why there haven't been more incidents like the train bombings in Madrid and London. You see the crowds of people swarming the platforms at Penn Station, Liverpool Street or Waterloo in rush hour - surely there's not really much that the police could do in terms of security - at least not without paralysing the whole infrastructure.

The terrorists acting in Europe did not come from the Middle East to perpetrate their

attacks - they were born in Europe and it is in Europe that they became "born-again"

Muslims and political radicals. Radical Islamism in Europe is homegrown - it's not an import.

I don't think the US is facing the same problems with radical Islamic elements. Although

the US undoubtedly has its fair share of racial problems, it's one of the most culturally

diverse countries on earth. Because of America's unique history as a country of immigrants,

people are bound together not by race, ethnicity, or religion, but by their shared values

and a common goal of seeking their fortune in a vast new land of opportunities.

The history of cultural diversity in Europe is quite different. Until very recently, there

was no large-scale immigration into Europe. European countries are still ethnically and

culturally homogeneous, and Europeans in their respective countries (Italians in Italy, etc)

are still very xenophobic. Refusing to abandon their original cultural attributes and conform

entirely to the behaviours and customs of the majority of the native-born population,

immigrants tend to become socio-economically marginalized, and as a result, become

ready recruits for radical mobilization.