Registered to Vote and Applying for Citizenship -- Advice needed

[pj1959us 0]

As has been wisely suggested, you need to contact an attorney. This is not a "self-help" situation you are in. You would have had to sign the voter registration in order to receive the card and Missouri voter registration specifically states you must be a US citizen in order to register. In the eyes of immigration you have misrepresented yourself to be a US citizen and it will definitely be asked during the naturalization process whether you registered to vote and/or voted.

It will not matter to them that you were here only 3 weeks or did not read what you signed. The burden is on you, the immigrant, to ensure you are following certain regulations and registering to vote is a serious matter. Please be sure you receive professional assistance.

PJ

[NickD 202]

Here is the question verbatim from the N-400.

2. Have you ever registered to vote in any Federal, state or local election in the United States? Yes No

If you answered yes, you are screwed, and if you answered no, and they check your voter registration and found that you are registered, you are screwed.

24. Have you ever lied to any U.S. government official to gain entry or admission into the

United States? Yes No

Having a voter registration is means that you have lied to show US Citizenship.

This is from the Missouri Voter Registration form.

1. ARE YOU A CITIZEN OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA? Yes No

This is from the Missouri Driver's License Application form.

U.S. Citizen

One of the following:

• U.S. Birth Certificate (certified with embossed or raised seal issued by state or local government)

• U.S. Passport (valid or expired)

• Certificate of Citizenship

• Certificate of Naturalization

• Certificate of Birth Abroad

Lawful Permanent Resident

(Resident Aliens)

YES

One of the following:

• I-551 card (Resident Alien Card)

• Passport stamped “Approved I-551”

• Passport stamped “Processed for I-551”

• Re-entry Permit I-327

• I-94 stamped “Processed for I-551”

Expiration dates do not indicate the expiration of legal permanent resident status.

I just find it impossible to believe they accidentally gave you a voter registration card, Missouri is no different from Wisconsin in this respect. As I said, our voter registration is completely separate from the DMV, but even at that, my wife could not renew her drivers license with an expired green card even with that I-797C one year extension notice. Counter clerk said what in the heck is that! Took personal contact from me to our Governor Doyle, and aid from Sen. Feingold's office, plus a ton of documents from the USCIS to explain why they were so slow. Sen. Feingold's office was great with their direct contact with the Nebraska office to verify everything we said was true. This went on for over a week with lots of phone calls and FAXes, she finally got her license renewed and we are not even talking about voter registration here.

Are you providing us with all the correct information? You did come here asking for help.

[warlord 73]

You are assuming the original poster just got their drivers licence recently or in the past few years. I got my first drivers licence 10 years ago and back then it wasn't as stingent as it is now. I got it in a mall kiosk and took 10 mins. At the time they had asked me about if I wanted to be registered to vote. I declined as I knew I wasn't supposed to. I can guarentee if I had chosen yes, the teenager working it would have just checked off the box.

At that time I did not need a passport/Greencard to get my first DL. I just had to hand over my current (canadian) DL and proof that I was living in the said county and state where I was applying for it. So it's very possible the original poster here got their card back then as well, which means it's highly possible it easily done without knowledge.

With that, I'm not sure how to convince the IO about registering to vote like that. Though it could be a naive overlook, I'm not sure the IO will still buy that...

[lucyrich 20]

the prosecutor would have to prove ...

Remember which direction the burden of proof goes.

If you're worried about being prosecuted in a criminal trial, the prosecutor has the burden of proof beyond all reasonable doubt. The defendant doesn't have to prove a thing in order to be acquitted.

However, if an alien is applying for an immigration benefit, including naturalization, the alien has the burden of proving eligibility for the benefit via a preponderance of the evidence. The government doesn't have to prove a thing in order to deny the benefit.

The Bart Simpson cliche, "they can't prove a thing", may mean you're immune from criminal prosecution, but it doesn't mean you'll be eligible for citizenship.

I LuciRich...

Thanks soo much for the very thoughtful replies...So say it does goes to courts and prosecutor can prove enough for a conviction,would;nt that mean..aquital?..and from what I've read,it seem they wont deny the application(awatiing the judges decision)..What i'm trying to say is that after aquital,would'nt that be a reason "not to deny"...?...

I hope all this nervousness I;m having would al just be speculations in the end...

No, that's precisely what I don't mean.

If a situation is ambiguous enough that nobody can prove anything, then they legally cannot grant an immigration benefit, nor can they convict someone in a criminal trial.

As an analogy, remember that the criminal penalty for marrying for the purpose of gaining an immigration benefit is 5 years in prison and a $250,000 fine. But this penalty is rarely assessed, only in the most egregious of marriage fraud cases. That's because, in order to assess such a penalty, the case would have to go to criminal court and the prosecutor would have the burden of proof beyond a reasonable doubt. It can be very hard to prove somebody's intent in entering a marriage.

However, people are denied visas for marriage fraud much more often. That's because, in order to deny an immigration benefit, they only need to find that the immigrant didn't sustain the burden of proof of eligibility via a preponderance of the evidence. If the immigrant didn't prove the marriage was bona fide, then no immigration benefit can be granted.

I haven't heard nearly as much case history about voter registration issues. But the burden of proof goes the same way in all immigration matters. If you don't have enough evidence to prove via a preponderance of the evidence that you did NOT represent yourself to be a US citizen, then they'll have to deny the immigration benefit. That's true even if the body of evidence isn't enough to sustain a criminal conviction, or even to take the matter to criminal trial.

Let me repeat my suggestion that you discuss this with an immigration attorney who has relevant experience. I don't consider my own understanding of the issues reliable enough. If I, or someone close to me, were in a similar situation, I'd certainly be hiring an attorney.

[NickD 202]

That conditional residence was a last minute shock to me after what we went through and also a hardship by trying to explain to other government officials why an expired green card. But even with the help of an immigration attorney, still a very complicated process and a lot to learn. Would think if a guy married ten immigrants in the last year may be grounds for suspicion.

Haven't figured out yet whether immigration is a right or a privilege, but feel a privilege is more in line and the burden of proof is on our shoulders and we are guilty until we prove ourselves innocent.

It certainly is to the advantage that Jumper8 get this situation straightened out ASAP and a far superior solution than have to attempt to explain that to an immigration officer. Compassion, understanding, nor mercy are not requirements to become an IO.

Also do concur, was a lot easier to obtain a driver's license three years ago then today, wife just needed her passport (foreign country) and a DHS limited SS card to get it back then. But attention has been given recently to the some odd 20 million illegals in this country, and for that, even though our government permitted that to happen, we have to pay the price.

[jumper8 0]

the prosecutor would have to prove ...

Remember which direction the burden of proof goes.

If you're worried about being prosecuted in a criminal trial, the prosecutor has the burden of proof beyond all reasonable doubt. The defendant doesn't have to prove a thing in order to be acquitted.

However, if an alien is applying for an immigration benefit, including naturalization, the alien has the burden of proving eligibility for the benefit via a preponderance of the evidence. The government doesn't have to prove a thing in order to deny the benefit.

The Bart Simpson cliche, "they can't prove a thing", may mean you're immune from criminal prosecution, but it doesn't mean you'll be eligible for citizenship.

I LuciRich...

Thanks soo much for the very thoughtful replies...So say it does goes to courts and prosecutor can prove enough for a conviction,would;nt that mean..aquital?..and from what I've read,it seem they wont deny the application(awatiing the judges decision)..What i'm trying to say is that after aquital,would'nt that be a reason "not to deny"...?...

I hope all this nervousness I;m having would al just be speculations in the end...

No, that's precisely what I don't mean.

If a situation is ambiguous enough that nobody can prove anything, then they legally cannot grant an immigration benefit, nor can they convict someone in a criminal trial.

As an analogy, remember that the criminal penalty for marrying for the purpose of gaining an immigration benefit is 5 years in prison and a $250,000 fine. But this penalty is rarely assessed, only in the most egregious of marriage fraud cases. That's because, in order to assess such a penalty, the case would have to go to criminal court and the prosecutor would have the burden of proof beyond a reasonable doubt. It can be very hard to prove somebody's intent in entering a marriage.

However, people are denied visas for marriage fraud much more often. That's because, in order to deny an immigration benefit, they only need to find that the immigrant didn't sustain the burden of proof of eligibility via a preponderance of the evidence. If the immigrant didn't prove the marriage was bona fide, then no immigration benefit can be granted.

I haven't heard nearly as much case history about voter registration issues. But the burden of proof goes the same way in all immigration matters. If you don't have enough evidence to prove via a preponderance of the evidence that you did NOT represent yourself to be a US citizen, then they'll have to deny the immigration benefit. That's true even if the body of evidence isn't enough to sustain a criminal conviction, or even to take the matter to criminal trial.

Let me repeat my suggestion that you discuss this with an immigration attorney who has relevant experience. I don't consider my own understanding of the issues reliable enough. If I, or someone close to me, were in a similar situation, I'd certainly be hiring an attorney.

I think most of you guys are right....I spoke to a lawyer who handled a similar case.I am not sure if you guys knew about a south african guy who was to be deported for voting 3 times in a presidential election.

I contacted the guys mom and she gave me the lawyers number and I called him up and we had some discussion...

-He said he won the case(and the guys even was naturalized) based on the fact that the adjudicating officer never followed normal procedure during the interview to determine if the guy voted "knowingly" and "willfully" in the general election (more importantly) while knowing it was a violation of the law.....

-The lawyer told he.."the intent" is one of the things was built the case...that :

1.The adjudicating officer never followed normal procedure(I think the manual they give them) which is sort of long,but just stopped when the guy told him he voted...he said according to policies,the officer is suppose to ask the interviewee to determine if they indeed voted knowing that it was against the law...= "showing intent"...

2.He told me that the USCIS has handled thousands of cases like this,and they know that most immigrants make these mistakes...He also told me that the major thing of "falsely claiming to be US citizen" is a major issue when you show intent to gain benefit of because of that claim,but if you show that you might have signed a voter registration form as a new immigrant or by mistake,and more importantly, NEVER VOTED,it will not show any intent of "knowingly" and "willfully" trying to claim US citizenship for certain benefits like "voting"(which I never did),immigration,employment,e.t.c...

He flat out told me that almost 90%,I should be ok without his help,but said if I am overly cautious,he would prepare a "legal memorandum" that I would take to the interview.He said,if they asked me the question of "have ever registered to vote" and they said,they will deny my application,then I should hand them the memo which he would use to build a very strong case against USCIS.......

-He closed by saying if the officer does not see any intent of me claiming US citizenship at some point to gain benefits,then I should be fine...he said even if I may have signed "I am a US citizen" box,importantly..I never voted,plus he said I explained it that it was a mistake....so there should be pardon...he told me most cases are those who actually voted...

What do you guys think?....

[jumper8 0]

Oh..And he even mentioned that even if ever you claim US citizenship to "register to vote",you would be only fine...not deported...

[NickD 202]

Do you have a voters registration card now? Is it something on your driver's license? If you do, can you go back to the issuing office and surrender it and state it was issued to you by mistake? Then just get a normal driver's license.

From what you said, you never really applied for a voters registration, but it was given to you by mistake. I am with you on this as agencies do make mistakes, but I feel it is up to you to bring that error to their attention. Good luck on this. You are in the position now of knowingly holding an invalid voters registration, get rid of it and legally, just don't toss it in the trashcan. Your name is also on a database that has to be removed.

And get that voters registration back, after you are a US citizen. That is my suggestion.

[jumper8 0]

Do you have a voters registration card now? Is it something on your driver's license? If you do, can you go back to the issuing office and surrender it and state it was issued to you by mistake? Then just get a normal driver's license.

From what you said, you never really applied for a voters registration, but it was given to you by mistake. I am with you on this as agencies do make mistakes, but I feel it is up to you to bring that error to their attention. Good luck on this. You are in the position now of knowingly holding an invalid voters registration, get rid of it and legally, just don't toss it in the trashcan. Your name is also on a database that has to be removed.

And get that voters registration back, after you are a US citizen. That is my suggestion.

I dont have the registration..its a different card and not related to my drivers license...my name was taken off the list..

we'll see if the interviewee would raise it up...

[NickD 202]

I dont have the registration..its a different card and not related to my drivers license...my name was taken off the list..

we'll see if the interviewee would raise it up...

Then you should be able to honestly answer NO to this question.

2. Have you ever registered to vote in any Federal, state or local election in the United States?

If the question is brought up, the State of Missouri did issue you a voters registered card in the process of applying for your driver's license that you DID NOT apply for. But when you received this card, you did surrender it and requested that your name be taken off the voters list.

If this is the case, you should be okay then.

[jumper8 0]

I dont have the registration..its a different card and not related to my drivers license...my name was taken off the list..

we'll see if the interviewee would raise it up...

Then you should be able to honestly answer NO to this question.

2. Have you ever registered to vote in any Federal, state or local election in the United States?

If the question is brought up, the State of Missouri did issue you a voters registered card in the process of applying for your driver's license that you DID NOT apply for. But when you received this card, you did surrender it and requested that your name be taken off the voters list.

If this is the case, you should be okay then.

Thank you NickD,

Thats what I was thinking also to say.You are right...I hope the question wont even come up...I've read some interview experience that sometimes,some of the adjudicators takes like 5 secs to go thru the application and just jump forward to the english test....

[churipu 4]

I dont have the registration..its a different card and not related to my drivers license...my name was taken off the list..

we'll see if the interviewee would raise it up...

Then you should be able to honestly answer NO to this question.

2. Have you ever registered to vote in any Federal, state or local election in the United States?

If the question is brought up, the State of Missouri did issue you a voters registered card in the process of applying for your driver's license that you DID NOT apply for. But when you received this card, you did surrender it and requested that your name be taken off the voters list.

If this is the case, you should be okay then.

Thank you NickD,

Thats what I was thinking also to say.You are right...I hope the question wont even come up...I've read some interview experience that sometimes,some of the adjudicators takes like 5 secs to go thru the application and just jump forward to the english test....

But I honestly wouldn't count on it...all the interviews that I have read about in this forum since I started reading it last year when I filed all reported to have been asked those questions. You are supposedly asked again at the interview because you're under oath.

BTW if the lawyer told you you'll be fine then you most likely will be.

Good luck

[jumper8 0]

Someone directed me to a few case at this link :http://soundpolitics.com/archives/008835.html

It appears that those who voted were in much trouble and there was one who was only registered and was asked to verify that he never voted - that is proving a history of voter records,and prove that he took his name of the list...

See this file... http://soundpolitics.com/Webb_NonCitizenVoters.pdf

Is there any other recent cases out there...?

I think the wise thing to do at this point is to:

1.Take the prove that my name was taken off the list.

2.take a prove that I have never voted even though I was registered....

3.explain details of why i registered to vote...

these were the things they request from one of those guys from the story above...clearly,they are trying to build a case that either shows "intent' or not...i guess....I know they should'nt have made the mistake...but I would like to get your insights on this also...

[NickD 202]

There is a strong distinction being advised by a professional immigration attorney on how to deal with a question if asked or saying a couple of guys on the forum told me to answer this question this way. One key difference is that an attorney is liable for the advice he gives you, we can only help you in the right direction.

There is also quite a difference between being in a court of law and sitting in front of an interviewers desk in regards to the law.

Getting back to the question at hand:

2. Have you ever registered to vote in any Federal, state or local election in the United States?

To do so would mean you went into a governmental agency and applied for (under false pretenses) to obtain a voters registration card, illegally. Did you do this? If you did, an honest answer would be YES! If you did not, but a voters registration was sent to you by an error of your state, the answer is No.

You can be advised to volunteer information and this works both ways, can answer NO, but you were sent a voter's registration by an error of your state, you never used this card, but did return it back to your state.

This can get to be a very serious situation, and lucyrich and I are only going by the information you have provided, I have dealt considerably with various attorneys and have been an expert witness on a number of occasions, but am not an attorney. Good advice would be to give all of these details to an immigration attorney and go from there.

If you can get a letter from your state admitting they made an error by sending you a voters registration card, and they you in good faith returned it, that would be very good evidence in your defense. But again, check with your attorney, your attorney may even be able to get that letter for you.

Unfortunately, in this blame everybody except yourself society, we are victims of other people's mistakes, and it hurts to have to take money out of your pocket to defend yourself. But what else can one do?

[Mojoo 0]

hello jumper 8

i have the same situation you have

back in 2005 i went to the dmv without my wife to get the driver lic. and the empolyee at the dmv in WV ask me for proofs and i showed her my marriage certifcate and she told me you are married to u.s citizen that's mean you are us citizen and she checked the box for me and i didn't know no things

so i went home and i called uscis and they told me no you are not a citizen

so i didn't care about what happend

afew weeks later i recived a registration card in the mail

i told my wife what is that ?

and because she didn't know she told ohhh that's normal it's always happens when any one gets his driver lic.

so in feb 2008 when i was preparing for my n400 i found that ques. have you ever claim to be a us citizen and have y ou ever register to vote

i freaked out

i didn't ask for a freking voteing card to begin with

so i went to the dmv ask them what's going on

they told me to go to the record in the capitol

i went and i asked them what's going on

they told u checked the box for us citizen

i told them the story and i'm not a u s citizen and it was that dumbass that she act like she konw every things more than the Governor

they told me they can't fix it it's illegal but they will write in top it's mistake and they took a copy of my social sec and my 2 years green card and my 10 years green card

i went to registration office for voting i told the same story and they canceld the card and give me a letter that i never voted

in my n 400 i checked no for both because i never claimed and never need to vote

but i'm gonna tell the officer that

my interview in 6-19-08

i talked to a attorney and she said you are most likely don't need help just tell that to the officed and don't be nervous

and she told if she need help she could come with me to the interview but surely it will cost alot of $$$

she said 500 just to make a research and another 500 to attend with me

but the question is what if i don't tell the officer any thing if he didn't bring it up

why i have to bring it up since it's not my fault

and what if they find it out later ?

what if the attorney understate the problem what if i get to be deported

that's mean i will lose my future my work my school my whole life

so jumper please tell me about ur interview when and what will happened and please provied me with your attorney's phone # i might need to call him too

and please guy share with me your opinion

thanks a lot