GM to lay off 3,500 at truck, SUV factories

[kaydee457 13]

So, you want it both ways? You want to be able to command a huge wage in the industry you work in, but not pay enough for goods to be made in a way that allows for a good wage for those who make them?

Seems to me that you and those who think like you want the entitlement of being able to command 100k a year on the backs of 'suckers and dead beats' who should only be able to command 20k because they work in industries that provide you with the goods and services at prices that you want to pay with your 100k.

You guys live in a society where you rely on 'suckers and dead beats' to bring you clean water to your homes and take the shite away. A society where food is produced for you to eat not at the price it costs in man hours, but at a cost you are prepared to pay. A society where infrastructure is provided so you can get from your clean home to your place of employment at a cost you can afford to pay. A society where should you get sick, you get treatment from nurses who don't demand pay based on their training, skills and the physical manpower they put into their jobs but based on what the private insurance industry will pay to keep the insurance premiums at a level you are prepared to pay. But, best of all, instead of wanting to pay into that society from which you derive these huge but hidden benefits, your 'entitlement' to get rich, you would prefer to laud it over the 'suckers and dead beats' and claim that their choices reflect their lack of personal responsibility.

Sometimes, society really sucks.

Unions have driven this industry into oblivion.....there's no denying it.

How is what I make relevant to this discussion? There are those that make 6 figures, and there are those that make 7 or more....I don't begrudge them! I wonder sometimes what I've done wrong in my life to to make more than I do.......

[Peikko 1,575]

This will continue to happen when you have an economy that seeks constant expansion at the rates that the US economy has been used to over the last 100 years. What needs to be recognized by politicians and people at large is that those expansion rates are finished, over, done.

It is not the Unions that have driven the US economy into inflation, it's the lack of growth potential.

[kaydee457 13]

I like it!

[Heracles 417]

How about US automakers fail because they failed to keep competitive with their products in terms of quality, appeal and - you guessed it - fuel economy. Running from quarter to quarter, the folks upstairs failed to properly position their companies with competitive products and efficient production lines.

But sure, why should the management ranks ever be responsible for anything but renting a truck to cart home those million dollar compensation packages?

How are the companies going to pump money into research when their largest cost is blown out wages? If you look at all of the most successful automobile companies, the Asian companies, they have little to no union involvement.

ETA: The Nissan plant in Smyrna, TN offers kick-### wages and benefits to it's workers who happen not to be unionized. And despite those wgaes and bennies, Nissan stays competitive.

Yes but the company sets the rules and not the unions. Whereas even in tough times like now the unions still demand GM and FORD pay up. Pay up with what though Monopoly money. I mean if it was so easy to run a company then the unions themselves should start and run their own.

The unions pulled the same #### off with the US airlines. Consequently they are all basically bankrupt. As a customer we now have to put up with bad service because the unions will not allow the airlines to fire disgruntled or poor performing workers.

[Peikko 1,575]

What you make personally is irrelevant but you base your theories of personal responsibility on your ability to earn X while someone else only has the ability to earn Y leaving out totally your reliance on society to give you the opportunity to earn X.

[kaydee457 13]

This will continue to happen when you have an economy that seeks constant expansion at the rates that the US economy has been used to over the last 100 years. What needs to be recognized by politicians and people at large is that those expansion rates are finished, over, done.

It is not the Unions that have driven the US economy into inflation, it's the lack of growth potential.

Well, I heard just this morning that the consensus amongst economist is that we're now in recession and that it's expected to be a mild one......

Luckily, we're not experiencing the gasoline shortages of the Carter years along with 21% inflation!

If this is bad, I'll take this anyday over those years!

[Heracles 417]

It is not the Unions that have driven the US economy into inflation, it's the lack of growth potential.

The unions have driven labor elsewhere. Consequently no jobs for their workers. Look at the UK. London is like a ghost town after 8pm. What about shopping on the weekend there. Unlucky once again.

[kaydee457 13]

What you make personally is irrelevant but you base your theories of personal responsibility on your ability to earn X while someone else only has the ability to earn Y leaving out totally your reliance on society to give you the opportunity to earn X.

I make what I make because I earn it. No one, "society" or otherwise has given me any opportunities that you, or anyone else hasn't been exposed to from birth....assuming you're the USC of course...

Enough of making this thread a "class" war.

[Peikko 1,575]

You believe that somehow, without any new resources and without reducing the population drastically that the economy is going to magically grow? What exactly are you basing this growth on?

[Peikko 1,575]

What you make personally is irrelevant but you base your theories of personal responsibility on your ability to earn X while someone else only has the ability to earn Y leaving out totally your reliance on society to give you the opportunity to earn X.

I make what I make because I earn it. No one, "society" or otherwise has given me any opportunities that you, or anyone else hasn't been exposed to from birth....assuming you're the USC of course...

Enough of making this thread a "class" war.

You have the opportunities you have because you don't have to use up your man hours doing the inconvenient things that are required to live. I have them too. The difference is, I don't begrudge the theory of paying taxes - you believe you pay for these services, but you don't, not by a long shot.

It's not a 'class' war at all, but if you can't see that, you're stuck in some 1940's movie.

Edited April 29, 2008 by Purple_Hibiscus

[kaydee457 13]

You believe that somehow, without any new resources and without reducing the population drastically that the economy is going to magically grow? What exactly are you basing this growth on?

Business investment.....these recessions are cyclic. They occur periodically. This one's predicted to be mild, and relatively short.

[kaydee457 13]

What you make personally is irrelevant but you base your theories of personal responsibility on your ability to earn X while someone else only has the ability to earn Y leaving out totally your reliance on society to give you the opportunity to earn X.

I make what I make because I earn it. No one, "society" or otherwise has given me any opportunities that you, or anyone else hasn't been exposed to from birth....assuming you're the USC of course...

Enough of making this thread a "class" war.

You have the opportunities you have because you don't have to use up your man hours doing the inconvenient things that are required to live - you believe you pay for these services, but you don't, not by a long shot.

It's not a 'class' war at all, but if you can't see that, you're stuck in some 1940's movie.

I have to laugh at this....I'm not stinking rich you know....Everything's relative I guess,

[Peikko 1,575]

Who said you are stinking rich? I haven't argued that. I have simply argued that everyone relies on society to take care of their day to day obligations and they don't pay commensurate with the man hours saved. We are all using the fact that sewage workers, water workers, trash workers etc don't command huge wages in order to make these services affordable. The people who work in these industries are by no means 'suckers and dead beats' and they should be paid sufficient to be able to live in reasonable comfort and not be looked down on as somehow stupid because they didn't go into a fashionably profitable industry.

[Peikko 1,575]

Business investment in what? The things that drive an economy are being able to acquire raw materials at low cost to create added value products (using cheap labour) that people want to buy. It is irrelevant if people can afford them so long as an economy is booming because banks make large profits lending money to those who can't afford to do more than pay back the interest. Where are all the cheap materials and cheap labour? Not in the US that's for sure.

[BishopMnA 0]

Who said you are stinking rich? I haven't argued that. I have simply argued that everyone relies on society to take care of their day to day obligations and they don't pay commensurate with the man hours saved. We are all using the fact that sewage workers, water workers, trash workers etc don't command huge wages in order to make these services affordable. The people who work in these industries are by no means 'suckers and dead beats' and they should be paid sufficient to be able to live in reasonable comfort and not be looked down on as somehow stupid because they didn't go into a fashionably profitable industry.

You argument is good and sound, but only in the world of academia.

I live in Detroit, and the real-world-truth is that the unions have sunk this town.

Peace!

MarkNAAm