Senator Obama on Fox News Sunday (April 27 2008)

[HAL 9000 96]

You may be right. You've got more personal experience with this than I.

What he is saying is only part of the equation. You do have to consider the funding aspect and the contributors to teacher stress and turnover (class size, etc) have more to do with funding shortages (partially to blame for not enough teachers per X pupils) that also limit the availability of quality curricula across the board.

Do horrible teachers exist? Of course. Regulations SHOULD target those parts instead of making general, over-the-top conditioned laws that demand teachers are well qualified but do not fund the improvement efforts until too many students have been negatively impacted.

[kaydee457 13]

What Kaydee does not understand about "conditional" hiring of teachers is that those teachers cannot continue working unless they show proof of defined steps toward certification, and they only have a limited amount of time to achieve all requirements for certification. Those requirements include passing an exam, usually the PRAXIS. Check it out. The Core Battery tests are relatively easy, though I don't think any non-Education major could pass the Professional Knowledge portion, but the subject specific exams are more rigorous. MANY fresh graduates from teaching courses have failed the PRAXIS and cannot be hired. I don't know what Kaydee does for a living. Maybe s/he has to pass a bar as well, maybe not.

After certification, teachers must show proof of continued training in their field in order to maintain it. Often times, this training must be paid for out of our own pockets.

I had choices. I knew the pay for teachers was not on par with the training required. It is the lowest paid professional job, though nurses don't get paid much better. I could have chosen a profession that paid higher. I knew what I was getting into (or I did to a certain extent - no one really knows how stressful teaching is until they actually teach.) Does this mean that I think the salaries should stay as low as they are? NO! Does this mean I made a bad choice? If that is a given, then we are dooming ourselves and we deserve the results. Does it mean if I want to make 100K I should change careers? Unfortunately, yes. Is this the way it should be? Is this a reasonable reply? Is this a fair attitude? I won't answer that because I could be called biased.

I'm only relating what I know from personal experience. I had a co-worker whose wife, an engineer could not find employemnt as an engineer in Virginia and so found employment as a teacher in a middle school.

She said she attended a two month course for "certification" and was given a "Provisional 3 year License" that's renewble every three years.

When I left there after 5 years she was still working the same job and as far as I know she never pursued any additional certification.

So perhaps I don't understand everything but on more than one occasion I read, and heard through conversations that people were being hired by rural school districts now that wouldn't have been hired 20 years ago......mostly due to the waiver of certification requirements. It is my belief that this practice of hiring people outside of education is driving teaching salaries lower..........

And this is my last word on this topic!

Edited April 29, 2008 by kaydee457

[GabiandVi 34]

What Kaydee does not understand about "conditional" hiring of teachers is that those teachers cannot continue working unless they show proof of defined steps toward certification, and they only have a limited amount of time to achieve all requirements for certification. Those requirements include passing an exam, usually the PRAXIS. Check it out. The Core Battery tests are relatively easy, though I don't think any non-Education major could pass the Professional Knowledge portion, but the subject specific exams are more rigorous. MANY fresh graduates from teaching courses have failed the PRAXIS and cannot be hired. I don't know what Kaydee does for a living. Maybe s/he has to pass a bar as well, maybe not.

After certification, teachers must show proof of continued training in their field in order to maintain it. Often times, this training must be paid for out of our own pockets.

I had choices. I knew the pay for teachers was not on par with the training required. It is the lowest paid professional job, though nurses don't get paid much better. I could have chosen a profession that paid higher. I knew what I was getting into (or I did to a certain extent - no one really knows how stressful teaching is until they actually teach.) Does this mean that I think the salaries should stay as low as they are? NO! Does this mean I made a bad choice? If that is a given, then we are dooming ourselves and we deserve the results. Does it mean if I want to make 100K I should change careers? Unfortunately, yes. Is this the way it should be? Is this a reasonable reply? Is this a fair attitude? I won't answer that because I could be called biased.

I'm only relating what I know from personal experience. I had a co-worker whose wife, an engineer could not find employemnt as an engineer in Virginia and so found employment as a teacher in a middle school.

She said she attended a two month course for "certification" and was given a "Provisional 3 year License" that's renewble every three years.

When I left there after 5 years she was still working the same job and as far as I know she never pursued any additional certification.

So perhaps I don't understand everything but on more than one occasion I read, and heard through conversations that people were being hired by rural school districts now that wouldn't have been hired 20 years ago......mostly due to the waiver of certification requirements. It is my belief that this practice of hiring people outside of education is driving teaching salaries lower..........

And this is my last word on this topic!

It is provisional, but can only be renewed if she meets requirements (provisions). Also, I question whether it was for 3 years. Generally, it is for one year with the allowance to renew it every year for three years on the condition that conditons are met. After three years, it is expected that the candidate has met all conditions for full certification. f not, no further provisional certification will be granted.

Full certification is usually good for three years with the expectation that the teacher will continue education, and will have met all the appraisal requirements for her district/system. That's pretty standard for school systems around the US. I've been teaching abroad for the last 12 years and have been investigating school systems around the US. This is what I have found in my research. I

am fully certified with 16 years experience and a MA. I will have to continue to apply for maintenance of my certificate if I want to continue teaching. The area I am going to does usually hire people who go through alternative certification. In fact, it hires many Teach For America candidates. But it does not keep them on payroll unless they meet conditions.

Salaries for teachers have always been low and are low in all countries that I have looked into. It has little or nothing to do with the lowering of standards for hire. I can understand the argument that if there is a glut of teachers then salaries should be lower, but when there is a dirth of them, capitalism and common wisdom teaches that salaries should go up. In fact, this is the case. The salaries in my area have increased 100% in the last 12 years since I left. And where I first began teaching, the district offered the highest starting salaries in the state because there was a teacher shortage in the area and it was considered a recruitment incentive. (Even so, I was only paid $19,700 a year.)

Some districts offer housing subsidies to intice teachers. I don't think your argument holds water.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

For what it's worth...this was my best childhood friend. We haven't really kept in contact over the years, but my Mom told me he was in the news the other day...recognition for being one of 10 outstanding Principals in Phoenix. Ironically, growing up, he came from a Conservative Baptist family and my family were what his family affectionately called, 'heathen' Catholics. My parents voted Democrat, his Republican. We use to get into many arguments, but we were like brothers. After graduated with a degree in biomedical engineering, he went through a personal tranformation after doing missionary work with people living on the streets in New York. I was shocked when I later met him and he told me that his views had changed. He's a really good guy and my brother...

http://www.azcentral.com/specials/special4...6sprout-ON.html

Jeff Sprout

Montebello School/Alhambra School District

How long a principal?: Four years.

Previous education experience: Taught junior high science for 10 years and then worked as an intervention specialist for one and a half years.

Degrees: Bachelor of Science in biomedical engineering from Arizona State University, master's degree in education from Arizona State University, and a doctorate in education administration and supervision from Arizona State University.

Residence: Tempe.

Age: 42.

When you're feeling challenged, what drives you to continue?

A love for making a difference in kids' lives. And sometimes, I sit down and write thank you notes to people and it quickly helps me to get my motivation back and realize what great work we do at Montebello.

What do you do to motivate and encourage parents to get involved?

First, we have curriculum that every night parents are involved in with their kids - they have to sign a homework sheet. Second, we have found that parents love to come see their kids do things, so we have family events. We also use these opportunities to draw in volunteers. We have a "second cup of coffee" event, which is where parents can meet with me and give me their thoughts. We just recently had a multi-cultural event and a family spaghetti dinner. We want to make sure that parents feel invited and welcome in our school.

How do your students know you have high expectations for them?

One way my students know I have high expectations is we have the students set their own goals, and so they know we want them to look to their future. I'm constantly on the morning announcements celebrating things that demonstrate high expectations and we talk about their future a lot, that we hope they go to college. I think every student will tell you that the goal of our staff is to get every student into college. I have teachers and staff that are constantly emphasizing that. I model high expectations, then my staff models high expectations, and the kids pick it up. I have to model what I expect out of others.

How do you inspire your students and who inspired you?

To inspire students, we bring real life professionals into our schools so they can see the end result of getting a college degree. We have an Intel Engineers Day, where we bring in 25 to 30 engineers and they go into every classroom and give presentations about the importance of going to college. The students get to solve a problem just like engineers do, and sometimes the kids do better than the engineers.

While I was in college, I was involved in the campus ministry, and my minister, Mark Baker, encouraged me to find opportunities to serve people in an urban environment. I traveled to Los Angeles, New York City, and Dallas. It was through that opportunity that I developed a love for teaching. Also, my district's superintendent, Jim Rice, has been an incredible leader and has inspired me and mentored me as a teacher.

What one tip would you give to new principals?

Surround yourself with great people - your bosses, colleagues, fellow administrators, and staff at your school. There's the old adage, "Rome was not built in a day." Really, it takes 3-5 years for a school to be your own. And don't ever forget why you got into this business: To make a difference in kids' lives.

Why are you a principal in a school serving so many children in poverty when you could be a leader anywhere?

At the age of 22, I dedicated my life to serving in an urban environment. I feel like this is a very important cause, to bring the message of the importance of education into our urban centers and to see kids be successful.

How do you use student achievement data to make teaching decisions?

We use a battery of assessments to find out how our kids are doing. We must target our energies specifically on what our kids need to learn. We must get an accurate picture of where our kids are and figure out how to use our curriculum to meet the needs they have. We set instructional goals for ourselves in our school. Teachers keep track of data, and students keep track of their own data, as well.

What special item did you bring today and why?

I brought a book of poetry recently produced by the eighth grade students. The greatest joy of being a principal is watching kids be successful. To me, this book was just one example of the many things that happen at Montebello on a daily basis. I could have brought a treasure trove of great work.

[Ban Hammer 13,352]

If we teach our children their value in society is largely going to be determined by the amount on their W-2, pretty soon our society is going to be in trouble.

you're decades late. how many women want to marry a doctor?

[one...two...tree 2,762]

If we teach our children their value in society is largely going to be determined by the amount on their W-2, pretty soon our society is going to be in trouble.

you're decades late. how many women want to marry a doctor?

I married one.

[Heracles 417]

If we teach our children their value in society is largely going to be determined by the amount on their W-2, pretty soon our society is going to be in trouble.

you're decades late. how many women want to marry a doctor?

or a rapper, athlete, actor or singer. Too many kids idolize these guys and their path to easy money..

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

Rap isn't easy money.

You gotta spin a good rhyme, find a producer who won't rip you off and dodge bullets.