Palestinians: Carter Achieved Nothing

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

So you think if Palistinians have a leader that will not recognise Israel there is a chance for peace? How so? The two are counterintuitive. In order to live in peace you have to recognise each others right to exist.

Arafat recognized Israel. Abbas recognized Israel. Hamas has repeatedly stated that it is willing to recognize Israel according to the internationally-accepted 1967 borders.

Interestingly enough though (especially considering all of its finger-pointing) Israel has never recognized Palestine, much less its "right to exist."

[Hilarious Clinton 452]

funny

[mawilson 2,133]

Hamas has repeatedly stated that it is willing to recognize Israel according to the internationally-accepted 1967 borders.

Except they haven't. What they stated - just the other day - is this:

Hamas ... wouldn't necessarily accept the results of a peace referendum, the Associated Press

reported, and Hamas leader Khalid Mashaal said from Damascus the group won't recognize Israel.

Mashaal offered Israel a 10-year truce if it withdraws from lands seized in 1967, AP added.

link

Abu Zuhri [a Hamas official in the Gaza Strip] also noted that Hamas, which refuses to

recognise Israel, would regard any future Palestinian state in the occupied West Bank

and the Gaza Strip, territories Israel captured in the 1967 Middle East war, as "transitional".

link

Edited April 25, 2008 by mawilson

[sandinista! 1,816]

churchill, roosevelt and truman...a bunch of idiots?

[GaryC 7]

churchill, roosevelt and truman...a bunch of idiots?

Sounds like someone was asleep in history class.

Remember this guy? I doubt it.

Edited April 25, 2008 by GaryC

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

Hamas has repeatedly stated that it is willing to recognize Israel according to the internationally-accepted 1967 borders.

Except they haven't. What they stated - just the other day - is this:

Hamas ... wouldn't necessarily accept the results of a peace referendum, the Associated Press

reported, and Hamas leader Khalid Mashaal said from Damascus the group won't recognize Israel.

Mashaal offered Israel a 10-year truce if it withdraws from lands seized in 1967, AP added.

link

This is essentially a piece shilling for the Israeli government's official position of avoiding negotiations no matter what. But it does include these interesting contradictions amid its recitation of the usual mantra that "Hamas won't recognize Israel":

A cease-fire deal between Israel and Hamas is imminent, Ahmed Yousef, a spokesman for the Islamic organization said today. Hamas sent its proposals to Israel and is now awaiting a response.

"We expect a real development in this regard in the coming few days,'' Yousef said. Carter said that Hamas had rejected his proposal for a 30-day unilateral cease-fire.

and

Hamas leaders said that they are making progress in Egyptian-mediated talks about a prisoner exchange that would include Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit, who was captured by Palestinian gunmen in June 2006. Hamas has agreed to allow Shalit to send a letter to his parents, Carter said.

Now... how do you negotiate cease-fires and prisoner exchanges with, or send proposals to, a country that doesn't exist ?

Abu Zuhri [a Hamas official in the Gaza Strip] also noted that Hamas, which refuses to

recognise Israel, would regard any future Palestinian state in the occupied West Bank

and the Gaza Strip, territories Israel captured in the 1967 Middle East war, as "transitional".

link

Your link doesn't even contain that quote. *This* is what it actually says:

Hamas would accept Israel, says Carter

By Tobias Buck in Gaza City

Published: April 21 2008 09:58 | Last updated: April 21 2008 21:58

Jimmy Carter, the former US president attempting to broker an understanding between Israel and Hamas, said on Monday the Islamist Palestinian group stood ready to accept the Jewish state as a “neighbour” and would back a peace deal under certain conditions.

Mr Carter said: “I met with Hamas leaders from the West Bank, Gaza and Damascus. They said that they would accept a Palestinian state on the 1967 borders if approved by Palestinians – a departure from long-standing Hamas doctrine that refused to recognise two states.”

In a statement released shortly after his speech in Jerusalem, Hamas neither confirmed nor denied his claims. However, it did adopt a broadly conciliatory tone, expressing support for a referendum on a peace agreement and promising “flexibility” and the willingness to take “the necessary steps”.

Hamas, which controls the Gaza Strip and has claimed responsibility for a string of recent attacks on Israeli soldiers and civilians, did not say what those steps were.

Khaled Meshal, the Hamas leader, said in Damascus that it would accept the establishment of a Palestinian state on land occupied by Israel in the 1967 war but would not recognise the Jewish state. He raised the prospect of a “a truce of 10 years as a proof of recognition” should Israel withdraw to the 1967 borders.

Mr Carter has been criticised by Israeli and US politicians for meeting senior Hamas officials, including Mr Meshal, who lives in exile in Damascus. While the former president has stressed he is not engaged in an official diplomatic effort, he has urged Israel and the US to end their boycott of Hamas.

The two countries are supported by the European Union in viewing Hamas as a terrorist organisation, though many in the Arab world see it as a legitimate resistance movement.

“He [Mr Carter] made this trip on his own initiative,” said Tom Casey, a US State Department spokesman. “We counselled him against engaging with Hamas, in keeping with long-standing US policy. They still refuse to acknowledge or recognise any of the basic Quartet principles . . . The bottom line is Hamas still believes in the destruction of the state of Israel.”

Mr Carter said he knew the meetings would be “viewed negatively in some quarters”, but insisted it was a mistake to isolate Hamas and Syria. “We believe the problem is not that we met them but that the US and Israeli governments will not meet. This unwillingness to talk makes peace harder to achieve,” he said.

The winner of the Nobel peace prize then cited a passage agreed with Hamas: “If [Palestinian Authority] President [Mahmoud] Abbas succeeds in negotiating a final status agreement with Israel, Hamas will accept the decision made by the Palestinian people and their will through a referendum . . . even if Hamas is opposed to the agreement.”

The group’s official charter still calls for the destruction of Israel, but its leaders have signalled they are prepared for some form of accommodation provided Israel withdraws from the occupied West Bank and lets refugees return.

Mr Abbas, who also leads Fatah, the rival faction to Hamas, is due to meet US President George W. Bush on Thursday.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/c77b430c-0f7f-11...?nclick_check=1

Here are a couple more reports that discuss the controversy:

Hamas: We'll recognize Israel within 1967 borders

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3249568,00.html

Will Hamas ever recognize Israel ?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4686844.stm

It seems that no one here wants to discuss the fact that Israel has never recognized a Palestinian state. Or how about the fact that the platforms of certain Israeli political parties call for Israel to take all of the West Bank for itself, and expel the Palestinian Arabs who live there (as well as inside Israel "proper.")

As usual when Israel points its finger, 3 more are pointing right back at itself.

[mawilson 2,133]

Abu Zuhri [a Hamas official in the Gaza Strip] also noted that Hamas, which refuses to

recognise Israel, would regard any future Palestinian state in the occupied West Bank

and the Gaza Strip, territories Israel captured in the 1967 Middle East war, as "transitional".

link

Your link doesn't even contain that quote. *This* is what it actually says:

Hmm. Guess the editors weren't happy with the original wording? Wonder why they'd changed it.

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

Hmm. Guess the editors weren't happy with the original wording? Wonder why they'd changed it.

Yorkist plot ?

[Saddle Bronc 124]

Carter's only actual achievement in life was to be a third of the "indecisive-useless triumvirate" present as national leaders in late 1979; the other two were Canadian PM Joe "Who" Clark, and Indian PM Morarji Desai.

That being in contrast to "decisive women triumvirate" (note: only means they would actually not sit on the fence very long on decisions, not that the decisions were correct) of Indira Gandhi, Golda Meir and Sirimavo Bandaranaike present in 1972.

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

Carter's only actual achievement in life was to be a third of the "indecisive-useless triumvirate" present as national leaders in late 1979; the other two were Canadian PM Joe "Who" Clark, and Indian PM Morarji Desai.

That being in contrast to "decisive women triumvirate" (note: only means they would actually not sit on the fence very long on decisions, not that the decisions were correct) of Indira Gandhi, Golda Meir and Sirimavo Bandaranaike present in 1972.

Well.... Carter negotiated the first and longest-lasting peace accord between Israel and an Arab country -- a peace that endures today -- and was awarded the Nobel Prize for his efforts.

That's hardly chopped liver, whatever your own personal opinions and political sympathies.

[mawilson 2,133]

Hamas must not be doing very well if they are begging Israel for cease-fire, eh?

Uhm, sorry, not begging - making a generous offer.

You know what happens during cease-fires, don't you? The enemy regroups and rearms

and when the cease-fire is over, attacks with full force.

So........NO.

[Saddle Bronc 124]

Carter's only actual achievement in life was to be a third of the "indecisive-useless triumvirate" present as national leaders in late 1979; the other two were Canadian PM Joe "Who" Clark, and Indian PM Morarji Desai.

That being in contrast to "decisive women triumvirate" (note: only means they would actually not sit on the fence very long on decisions, not that the decisions were correct) of Indira Gandhi, Golda Meir and Sirimavo Bandaranaike present in 1972.

Well.... Carter negotiated the first and longest-lasting peace accord between Israel and an Arab country -- a peace that endures today -- and was awarded the Nobel Prize for his efforts.

That's hardly chopped liver, whatever your own personal opinions and political sympathies.

Note: peace process was actually started by Sadat--prior to Carter even being elected.

Carter's contribution--the venue.

If you want to give Carter credit for coincidence, it can also be done for Jorge Bush Jr--since the Jhelum Valley "peace bus" (re)started on his watch (admittedly, US played no visible role in this).

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Carter was president when America was still dealing with the fallout from the Vietnam war. Given that I wonder what exactly he was supposed to do about Iran in '79.

[mawilson 2,133]

Carter was president when America was still dealing with the fallout from the Vietnam war. Given that I wonder what exactly he was supposed to do about Iran in '79.

Obama is going to be Carter #2. Brilliant man, great speeches, terrible president.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

There are plenty of presidents worse than Carter - GWB notwithstanding.

Ulysses S Grant?