Do second marriages in Egypt have "prenuptual" agreements?

[Ihavequestions 419]

Muslim husbands in Egypt do not go to court to get a divorce. They divorce the Islamic way, by telling their wife three times....

That can't be all, right? Why the big controversy then about the validity of a marriage that is not officially recognized by the state if terminating the marriage doesn't involve the state? And how are a woman's rights as defined by her marriage contract enforced if the court is not involved?

They probably register it like they do in Jordan. You can verbally divorce but you have to go down to teh court and register your divorce. Otherwise, you'd have no real idea who is married to whom.

That is correct, Julianna. Just like a legal marriage, a legal divorce must be registered. Those marriages that aren't registered? Ripping up the marriage contract is sufficient.

My point was, and I'm sorry I wasn't clear, that the Egyptian legal divorce process was created for wives, with husbands in mind.

[Nasturtium 500]

But if you get divorced in America, than it falls on the state, is that correct?

Yes, it would be whatever your state laws were. That could end up being in the woman's favor as it were. Then you can get into international custody issues if the breakup is nasty-- like where you cannot go to his home country if you as the woman retain custody.

It should also probably be mentioned that even if the children are young enough to normally fall under the age where they would remain with the wife but the wife is not Muslim, she does not get custody of the children.

[PetraPerson101 0]

You've got to remember too - that these systems are not completely right. Jordan for example - there should be no royalty in an "Islamic" country. There are supposed to be no monarchs - you should be electing the most knowledgeable person to lead, if you're following things to the letter. Same with Egypt - they've got a pillager as a leader - not an honorable person ... it's all wrong.

If you've got a system like THAT set up, then what?

It's a load of ****.

Settle it at - once you're in the USA, you follow the laws of the USA. You don't need to go to Egypt to get divorced if need-be. Write whatever you think is right in your contract, have it translated into English with Arabic text - and sign BOTH copies, have both copies legalized.

In the USA, legalize the English/Arabic text one with City/Town clerk. A contact's a contract in the USA. Once you sign it - and agree to its terms, as long as it doesn't say: "You will take a .50cal handgun and shoot yourself in the head" - then it's binding. ( Duress, murder contracts, bodily harm, human trade - you know, the usual suspects can not be held as legal-binding. If it asks for illegal stuff, then it's not legal. )

If the guy won't agree to your terms in the contract, then walk. Say: "Look, if you don't like what it says - there's the door."

If the guy plans on leaving or being a himar (the A-word in Arabic. ) - well ... he won't like it.

Edited April 24, 2008 by KyanWan

[Ahmed & Sue 0]

Wow, I wasn't expecting such precise responses.

First, let me say, I asked the question for my benefit, and no one else's. Although we have already discussed a prenuptual agreement, I got wondering what Egyptian laws are governing this area. My sole intent is to make sure he fully understands what he is signing before he signs it. However, at the same time, it is useful to have some insight into the Egyptian customs so if we run into a misunderstanding, I can see where his thinking is coming from. Sometimes just a phrase or a word means another thing, or he does not immediately know the meaning.

Second, we are not yet married. This we plan to do once he comes to the states. I have already talked with my pastor concerning the marriage, and she suggested a judge she knows to perform the ceremony. So, all paperwork will be legal and binding, no shadows in that area.

I will say I have learned way more from this forum than I thought I would. I did realize the families agree before marriage on who will offer what to the marriage. Each agrees to separate things.........one will furnish the dining room, the other will furnish the kitchen, etc. I had not realized a woman retains very little should her husband leave or die. Being in the USA, I guess I just take some things for grantid. At least you have provided me another perspective.

Actually, I had not thought about divorice when I asked about this. My concern is if something should happen to me, I want to make sure my children are taken care of. I realize this would be done with a will, which I already have, and will need to be updated. However, I also want something in writing stateing my current assets.

You have all been very thorough with your answers and I thank you for this.

Sue

[PetraPerson101 0]

Wow, I wasn't expecting such precise responses.

First, let me say, I asked the question for my benefit, and no one else's. Although we have already discussed a prenuptual agreement, I got wondering what Egyptian laws are governing this area. My sole intent is to make sure he fully understands what he is signing before he signs it. However, at the same time, it is useful to have some insight into the Egyptian customs so if we run into a misunderstanding, I can see where his thinking is coming from. Sometimes just a phrase or a word means another thing, or he does not immediately know the meaning.

Second, we are not yet married. This we plan to do once he comes to the states. I have already talked with my pastor concerning the marriage, and she suggested a judge she knows to perform the ceremony. So, all paperwork will be legal and binding, no shadows in that area.

I will say I have learned way more from this forum than I thought I would. I did realize the families agree before marriage on who will offer what to the marriage. Each agrees to separate things.........one will furnish the dining room, the other will furnish the kitchen, etc. I had not realized a woman retains very little should her husband leave or die. Being in the USA, I guess I just take some things for grantid. At least you have provided me another perspective.

Actually, I had not thought about divorice when I asked about this. My concern is if something should happen to me, I want to make sure my children are taken care of. I realize this would be done with a will, which I already have, and will need to be updated. However, I also want something in writing stateing my current assets.

You have all been very thorough with your answers and I thank you for this.

Sue

By the way -

A marriage contract in the Middle East - is not like an engagement.

It's considered "Unconsummated marriage" - they have married & unmarried - there's not really "engaged". It's "finalized" usually after a short trial period - and a wedding party.

If you're not Muslim though, I don't know ... how on earth it would work. I didn't deal with civil proceedings there.

---

For the legal part, I talked to a lawyer ( This guy ) and he said you only need to register with the city clerk. The marriage is already legal under US law once CIS & NVC approve your case - and deem it legitimate, you just need to show that you're in the USA, and married lawfully - once it's registered, it's fully legalized & held under US law.

Make sure you get an English, with a certified & legalized translation, or Bilingual form though.

Arabic's useless to the local Gov't.

[Ahmed & Sue 0]

Good point. Ok, so the marriage contract holds up for us in the USA once he is here and we are married. Out of curiosity, when we travel to egypt, will we be considered "legally" married by Islamic standards since the marriage will have been done here in the states?

[Nasturtium 500]

Good point. Ok, so the marriage contract holds up for us in the USA once he is here and we are married. Out of curiosity, when we travel to egypt, will we be considered "legally" married by Islamic standards since the marriage will have been done here in the states?

Yes. Most countries recognize another country's right to marry. That's why you don't go on vacation and suddenly become single Unless you're talking to some hard-core salafi people, I don't know of any mahdab that will deny your marriage by Islamic standards if it's done legally (and that's not to say it's a salafi thing either, it's just the only mahdab I've seen people follow that has redone marriages because they felt it was scholastically advisable). I do know of those who don't feel their marriage is valid Islamically, but they have all been very few and far between and they just went to a mosque and re-did their vows-- and that was a personal, not a legal requirement.

[PetraPerson101 0]

Once you sign the marriage contract - you're (technically) married.

Though you don't ... uh ... um ... do much until it's finalized. It's basically "Hey, now you're married & you can go running around with your girl now.* Go have fun." (*and her brothers, fathers, & uncles won't kill you. ) It's usually a short trial period depending on how the local culture or situation is - then it's done with.

There's usually a separation clause in there if it's broken apart BEFORE consummation. (Usually a percentage of the divorce or whatever. It depends on what's written.)

Edited April 29, 2008 by KyanWan

[Tunisia216 2]

I am not sure about Egypt, but when I got married in Tunisia, it was like written into our ceremony- the man who married us asked what type of marriage we picked - we decided on communal property - meaning everything that was his was mine and all that was mine was his - But at the same time another portion of the reading that we signed stated that All of his money was mine and that I was entitled to it at any time- but that all of my money was mine - and he had to ask permission before touching any of my financial assets - which the men made sour faces at and the women had a real good laugh about it -

I actually have video of that part somewhere, everyone laughing and such.. lol - But I know Tunisia is different than most Muslim countries, I'd say more pro women's rights (Maybe why they aren't the number one fans of other Muslim countries lol )

You should also ask questions about the ceremony, what you will be signing and what will be read, etc - that should give you some insight as to how things happen "standardly" and further I'll ask some Egyptian friends how that is handled. Good luck to you!!!

[morocco4ever 63]

But at the same time another portion of the reading that we signed stated that All of his money was mine and that I was entitled to it at any time- but that all of my money was mine - and he had to ask permission before touching any of my financial assets - which the men made sour faces at and the women had a real good laugh about it -

As it should be..... (JK)

[Ahmed & Sue 0]

LOL...........got a kick out of that J/k

Actually, I don't have a problem with sharing. I can't take it with me when I go.

I just can't see myself saying wedding vows with the words.....

May you take this man to be your husband, and everything he has is yours,

and may you take this woman to be your wife, and everything she has is hers,.......

although, once I see it in writing, it kind of simplifies things, doesn't it......lol.

Definately a woman's perspective. Sorry guys, I couldn't resist.

[Tunisia216 2]

That's pretty much how it went loool

I have to find that video for those of you that speak Arabic, you'll get a real laugh!

"What's his is hers and what's hers is hers" The End lol

[morocco4ever 63]

That's pretty much how it went loool

I have to find that video for those of you that speak Arabic, you'll get a real laugh!

"What's his is hers and what's hers is hers" The End lol

I may not be able to speak enough Arabic to understand, but this is certainly something I want my husband to see.

[Tunisia216 2]

Okay it seems like myspace ate my wedding videos!!

I could only find the first one, which is the beginning of the ceremony, so I'm going to post that one for you and go look for the others - If I can't find them I will upload them again. So this is not the one that talks about him not being able to touch my money (LOL) but it is a good one ...

Here you are going to see :

Ashley dying in the 120 degree Tunisian heat! I really thought I was going to pass out. My arabic is ok but they are talking way too fast for me and I'm trying desperately to understand all of their words - and going from Jihed talking in my ear in English to listening to Mohammad (the man in blue marrying us) as he's talking also. Then Mohammad starts switching back and forth from Arabic to English - and keep in mind Tunisian language is a mix of classic Arabic, Tunisian Arabic, and French..

That's Jihed's father walking around behind us - nervous as he can be because of the name issues ..

And then to make it even better- they start fighting about my last name My birth certificate has the name my mother gave me when I was born, my other papers, - license, passport, etc all say my current name (last name of my ex husband) and they can not understand why the birth certificate here NEVER changes - no matter what you do - There if you marry, divorce, change name, the birth certificate is an ever changing document, not here.

This gets Jihed all upset - and you can see by the look on my face I'm an ANGRY lady! hehe But I'm trying to do the proper thing and allow my husband to take care of it - but my American tongue wants to start going...

Here ya go .. Have fun laughing at us :

http://myspacetv.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=...ideoid=13146542

<a href="http://myspacetv.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=13146542">Wedding</a><br><embed src="http://lads.myspace.com/videos/vplayer.swf" flashvars="m=13146542&v=2&type=video" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="430" height="346"></embed>

[Tunisia216 2]

Ohh I forgot the part where his Aunts start screaming ... Didn't scare me, I'm use to it with my real father's family, but my friends here (with no arab experience ) were soooo freaked out!! What are they doing?? Why are they screaming?? OMG OMG OMG loool