Do second marriages in Egypt have "prenuptual" agreements?

[Ahmed & Sue 0]

Since I haven't seen this forum here yet, I want to know if second marriages in Egypt have "prenuptual" agreements, or something similar. Maybe I am wrong in assuming the widow or divoricee retains any assets of her husband. If a husband dies, does the widow get his inheritance? If a man and woman divorice, are the assets split between the two? If the lady remarries, who then owns the money and properties? Does it become both of theirs, or are there prenuptual agreements that stipulate what belongs to each person?

Being a widow, I want to know what is expected financially from me by an Egyptian husband. Are the expectations the same there as they are in the states? If a divorice occurs, is all money and property devided equally, or does each party go into the marriage with some form of a prenuptual agreement so each parts with what they entered with?

Would it be considered rude of me to ask for a prenuptual to be signed? Will I be expected to do something similar for him? Besides "prenuptual", what would I call it so he understands?

I would really like to know what is customary there.

Thanks,

Sue

[PetraPerson101 0]

Since I haven't seen this forum here yet, I want to know if second marriages in Egypt have "prenuptual" agreements, or something similar. Maybe I am wrong in assuming the widow or divoricee retains any assets of her husband. If a husband dies, does the widow get his inheritance? If a man and woman divorice, are the assets split between the two? If the lady remarries, who then owns the money and properties? Does it become both of theirs, or are there prenuptual agreements that stipulate what belongs to each person?

Being a widow, I want to know what is expected financially from me by an Egyptian husband. Are the expectations the same there as they are in the states? If a divorice occurs, is all money and property devided equally, or does each party go into the marriage with some form of a prenuptual agreement so each parts with what they entered with?

Would it be considered rude of me to ask for a prenuptual to be signed? Will I be expected to do something similar for him? Besides "prenuptual", what would I call it so he understands?

I would really like to know what is customary there.

Thanks,

Sue

Why so?

It's traditional that you sign a prenup, AKA - Marriage Agreement / or "Akid" - in order to get married. From what I understand, they've had prenups in Islam / Middle East since before it became popular in the west. It's old news. *EVERYONE* does it - from the rich, down to the pitifully poor.

IMO, the idea was *stolen* from us.

Normally - it works like this:

- The wife can ask whatever she wants - and the family of the wife normally has input on what to put in. ( like, you must buy me this, give me money, if you divorce I want support, etc. )

- The wife, if she divorces - gets nothing, or what is set forth in the agreement. .

- The husband, if he divorces - must pay $X to the wife, and go by whatever conditions were set forth in the agreement.

In ME marriages, the husband usually takes the kids -so- child support is a non-issue.

Edited April 24, 2008 by KyanWan

[Ihavequestions 419]

http://hrw.org/reports/2004/egypt1204

This is a Human Rights Watch publication. You will find the answers to many of your questions there. Of course, the discussion is solely about Egypt itself. And, yes, there are certain rights a woman has upon marriage, but they're not universal among middle east nations.

[PetraPerson101 0]

As far as I understand - the marriage agreement is a contract, and should be binding. I've heard it suggested that if you want something done, just write it in there from the start.

I believe that supersedes the law. So, if you like dogs and you want to have a pet dog - write it in there. If you want to be able to divorce for whatever reason you feel, write it in there. PLUS - if you're planning on living in the United States ...

um ...

You can get divorced in the USA. I was married in Amman, and I could have gotten a fully-legal divorce here. No problem.

Just make sure you have your marriage legalized (re-registered as a US marriage with the local legal authorities. It's already legal & recognized by US law - once you're accepted to immigrate, but this fully legalizes it where you can do legal work here instead of abroad.) @ your local city/town clerk once the spouse is here. You can attach the contract to it, I believe.

That's the info I got from an attorney ... so, it's good - well - at least in Connecticut.

Edited April 24, 2008 by KyanWan

[Ihavequestions 419]

As far as I understand - the marriage agreement is a contract, and should be binding. I've heard it suggested that if you want something done, just write it in there from the start.

Sort of.

Yes, it is a contract and it should be binding. The agreement most often contains all of these:

Whether the wife will work.

Whether she is free to travel.

Where the couple will live.

Whether the wife will have the right to ask for a divorce.

The dowry.

I believe that supersedes the law. So, if you like dogs and you want to have a pet dog - write it in there.

It cannot and will not. Egyptian law is based on Islam. If the agreement is not Islamic, it is won't be enforced. If a judge feels like having a dog is not Islamic, there will be no divorce based on that condition not being met.

If you want to be able to divorce for whatever reason you feel, write it in there.

It's not that easy. The right to initiate divorce (cancel the contract) is given to the (for lack of a better word) "leader" of the marriage and that traditionally is, guess who!, the husband. A wife taking that right is a bit ... emasculating. Of course she has the right to do it and I, personally, would not consider a marriage without it.

Since I haven't seen this forum here yet, I want to know if second marriages in Egypt have "prenuptual" agreements, or something similar.

All Egyptian marriages are contractual agreements.

Maybe I am wrong in assuming the widow or divoricee retains any assets of her husband.

The only asset that I am aware of which she retains is any unpaid dowry, which becomes due and payable upon divorce or death of the husband, in addition to any gold/cash she received upon marriage as part of the dowry. If the husband divorces the wife, he is only responsible for maintenance of his children. If a wife divorces her husband, she will quite likely lose her home unless she has children under the age of 10/12, then custody automatically goes to the father. Depending on which divorce path she chooses, she also risks losing her entire dowry. Also, wives do not own property in Egypt. Husbands do.

If a husband dies, does the widow get his inheritance?

If she's Christian, she has no inheritance rights. If she's Muslim, she is entitled to one half the inheritance a male heir would receive.

If a man and woman divorice, are the assets split between the two?

No. There is no fair and square in Egypt. It's a man's world. I believe spousal support can be ordered for up to two years. Of course sometimes the moon and the stars have to be alligned just right to get the order enforced, but a spousal support order is possible.

If the lady remarries, who then owns the money and properties? Does it become both of theirs, or are there prenuptual agreements that stipulate what belongs to each person?

She would not leave the marriage with property and quite likely only the money/gold from her dowry.

Being a widow, I want to know what is expected financially from me by an Egyptian husband.

He is expected to either grant permission for you to work outside of the home or not. That's it. His traditional role is to be the breadwinner, the provider, the man of the house. That's his duty to his wife and, because of this, the reason he doesn't have his right to work spelled out in the marriage contract.

That's the theory, anyway. In practice, while he can't ask his wife for money to buy an apple, it is not unusual for the wife to contribute to the household in some way. This, I assure you, is done in a very subtle way because if word got out in the neighborhood that particular marriage would be the talk.

Are the expectations the same there as they are in the states?

No. Two different countries ... two different cultures ... two different worlds.

Would it be considered rude of me to ask for a prenuptual to be signed? Will I be expected to do something similar for him? Besides "prenuptual", what would I call it so he understands?

There is nothing a pre-marital agreement will give you that the marriage contract itself won't - under Egyptian law and living in Egypt. The terms and conditions of your rights, which is pretty much what you're signing for in the marriage contract, will be spelled out and you will both sign the agreement. Once that's done, you're married. And, no, it is not rude or offensive - you have to do it. He will understand "muqaddam" and "mu’akhar."

Note: I'm not an attorney, but I did pay a good attorney good money.

[jpaula 20]

There are also often basic inheritence laws that cannot be overwritten by the equivilant of a will or prenup. I assume this varies by country, so look for Egypt specific info.

edited to add: I cannot imagine that Egyptian laws could apply to anything except assets held in Egypt.

Edited April 24, 2008 by jpaula

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Marriage is a contractual enterprise in Islam, whether it is the first wife or the fourth plural wife. In order to be enforcable, contracts must conform to the law of the area they are being registered in and/or adjudicated in. Laws vary according to jurisdictions, and trends within jurisdictions. Because of this, one CANNOT add or subtract conditions as one pleases. This is true of any contract, not only Islamic marriage contracts. Another thing that is important to know is that, in most jurisdictions, a non-Muslim is not allowed to inherit from a Muslim. If your SO has significant property or a family inheritance, and you are not Muslim, you are unlikely to be alloted a portion of the inheritance.

Another thing is, to inherit properly, you must register your marriage. We have had some disagreements lately about marriage "in God's eyes", a trend that is full of fallacies. Working in international law, my position remains the same and my posts reflect only advice for maintaining the best legal position possible, not for fulfilling exotic fantasies. One should never be "married", but filing for a K1; that is legally incongruous, and insulting to the standing of Islamic law in contrast to secular law. Better to go by the law in a manner that protects your rights, if you are serious about your relationship.

I'm behind on my quota of cut and paste, so here is a fatwa regarding valid marriage in Egypt. I'm happy to be able to present it to you, and I hope it will be taken in the spirit in which I offer it:

Name of Questioner: Zoaib - Egypt

Title: Conditions of Valid Marriage

Question: Dear scholars, As-Salamu `alaykum. If I do not have the money to afford an official wedding yet, can I just get married Islamically at first? Do I need the permission of an imam, or do I simply need two witnesses? Jazakum Allah khayran.

Date: 20/Nov/2006

Name of Counsellor: Ahmad Kutty

Topic: Marriage

Wa`alaykum As-Salamu wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuh.

In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.

Dear brother in Islam, we are really pleased to have your question and to have the chance to convey some of the teachings of our religion to our Muslim brothers and sisters. We hope these humble efforts meet the great expectations of yours.

In Islam, the marriage of a man and a woman is not just a financial and physical arrangement of living together but a sacred contract, a gift of Allah, to lead a happy, enjoyable life and continue the lineage. The main goal of marriage in Islam is the realization of tranquility and compassion between the spouses.

If by “official wedding†you mean a grand feast, this is not necessary to make the marriage valid. The contract can be solemnized by someone who has been authorized to perform marriages (a judge or imam, etc.) and witnessed by two or more adult Muslims. If one cannot afford a large banquet, the wedding can be celebrated by a simple meal for a small number of relatives and friends.

Answering your question, Sheikh Ahmad Kutty, a senior lecturer and Islamic scholar at the Islamic Institute of Toronto, Ontario, Canada, states:

Marriage in Islam is essentially a social contract, and so long as it is contracted conforming to the stated requirements, it shall be deemed valid. The presence of an Imam at the function is not at all one of the stated requirements, but the marriage should be solemnized by someone who has been authorized to perform marriages.

The stated requirements of marriage in Islam are as follow: Full consent of both partners to the marriage, expressing the above consent through ijab (offer) and qabul (acceptance), finally the presence of two reliable witnesses. Apart from the above, in the case of females, their guardian’s consent has been considered essential for the validity of marriage according to the majority of imams and scholars. Imam Abu Hanifah, however, is of the view that a mature woman is fully capable of contracting her own marriage. Thus in his view, marriages finalized without guardian’s consent shall be considered as valid so long the woman has chosen someone who is considered as compatible.

Furthermore, scholars are also in general agreement to the fact that marriages should not remain a secret affair; rather they should be publicized. Another important integral of marriage is the bridal gift; although it is not essential to stipulate it in the marriage contract, nevertheless it must be paid either before consummation of marriage or after.

Now coming to the issue of contracting marriages in a society where Islamic laws are not enforced or recognized, it is also highly crucial to get the legal papers before marriage contract; for legal purposes, the marriage must be solemnized by someone who has been authorized by the law of the land to perform marriage. In the absence of such legalization, there is no guarantee of legal protection for anyone in the event of a dispute.

Although some people may consider legalization as being not so crucial, I would, however, insist that it is quite crucial and essential; it is not advisable for anyone to get married without legal papers. This fact can be emphasized by referring to the fact that marriage is primarily a social contract and as such we should do so in conformity with the laws of the land we live so that such a contract can be legally enforced.

Apart from this, Islam teaches us to do what we do as efficiently, methodically and professionally as we can. The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said, “Allah loves you to do your work as best as you can.â€

In conclusion, you should insist on getting the marriage done by obtaining the legal papers, and getting it solemnized by an Imam or a person who has been authorized to do so. So long as the marriage is done by fulfilling the above requirements, it shall be considered as valid. All other things such as arranging a grand wedding or throwing a big feast, etc. are all non-essentials as far as the validity of the marriage is concerned.

May Allah guide our steps in all our affairs and help us to remain steadfast on what is true and right, Ameen!

Excerpted, with slight modifications, from: www.islam.ca

Edited April 24, 2008 by Virtual wife

[Ihavequestions 419]

Another thing is, to inherit properly, you must register your marriage. We have had some disagreements lately about marriage "in God's eyes", a trend that is full of fallacies. Working in international law, my position remains the same and my posts reflect only advice for maintaining the best legal position possible, not for fulfilling exotic fantasies. One should never be "married", but filing for a K1; that is legally incongruous, and insulting to the standing of Islamic law in contrast to secular law. Better to go by the law in a manner that protects your rights, if you are serious about your relationship.

Don't get me started....

[SaadBell 0]

One question and I am asking this out of interest, what do poor Egyptian women do if their husbands demand a divorce? Can these women work in order to support herself? Does she go back to her family, women don’t get a good shake in a ME divorce, that is a shame.

[Ihavequestions 419]

One question and I am asking this out of interest, what do poor Egyptian women do if their husbands demand a divorce? Can these women work in order to support herself? Does she go back to her family, women don’t get a good shake in a ME divorce, that is a shame.

Do women anywhere automatically get a "good shake" in any divorce? Particularly poor women who can't afford to negotiate complex legal systems? How about uneducated/uninformed women who don't know their rights within a marriage much less when it ends?

No. Of course not.

To answer your question, if their children are young enough that custody remains with the mother, she would be able to keep them in her husband's house until custody moves to the father (age 10/12).

[SaadBell 0]

What happens when the kids turn 10/12, do they have to live with their father, or do they have a choice? Interesting, so the wife gets like alimony from her ex husband, than that is not bad at all. That is sweet.

[Ihavequestions 419]

What happens when the kids turn 10/12, do they have to live with their father, or do they have a choice? Interesting, so the wife gets like alimony from her ex husband, than that is not bad at all. That is sweet.

Custody of the children becomes his legal right.

If a husband divorces his wife, she will get the part of the dowry she still has coming and maybe two years of spousal support (certainly not if the husband is poor).

If a wife divorces her husband with a no-fault divorce, she gives back the part of the dowry she received upon marriage and forfeits the rest.

If a wife divorces her husband with an at-fault divorce, she gets what the court will give her.

Muslim husbands in Egypt do not go to court to get a divorce. They divorce the Islamic way, by telling their wife three times....

[Jenn! 918]

Muslim husbands in Egypt do not go to court to get a divorce. They divorce the Islamic way, by telling their wife three times....

That can't be all, right? Why the big controversy then about the validity of a marriage that is not officially recognized by the state if terminating the marriage doesn't involve the state? And how are a woman's rights as defined by her marriage contract enforced if the court is not involved?

[Nasturtium 500]

Muslim husbands in Egypt do not go to court to get a divorce. They divorce the Islamic way, by telling their wife three times....

That can't be all, right? Why the big controversy then about the validity of a marriage that is not officially recognized by the state if terminating the marriage doesn't involve the state? And how are a woman's rights as defined by her marriage contract enforced if the court is not involved?

They probably register it like they do in Jordan. You can verbally divorce but you have to go down to teh court and register your divorce. Otherwise, you'd have no real idea who is married to whom.

[SaadBell 0]

But if you get divorced in America, than it falls on the state, is that correct?