Canberra, Sydney protests over torch relay

[Ursa Tripudio 2]

The government is improving, but certainly not perfect. The Chinese people I know concur with that. An entity responsible for maintaining a society with 1.3 billion people cannot change rapidly without the risk of catastrophic results.

Improving how? Becoming more democratic or something else? Are you suggesting that those who object to human rights abuses hate everything chinese? When has anyone suggested that china represents evil?

China is not, nor was it ever a communist state. I am not sure that there are any states that actually embraced communism although there were certainly several countries, China included that adopted the label in order to co erce their poorest people into supporting dictatorship goverments.

Improving; in terms of opening to the rest of the world. Improving; in terms of freedom (e.g. religious tolerance). Improving; in terms of becoming a modern society on par with any other in the world with all the benefits for the population that implies.

Contrary to popular belief: Not every good government is a Democracy. Speaking of becoming something else, take a close look at the direction Amerika is headed.

So, you're saying that the poorest people in China have an influence in government? Interesting.

1.3 billion chinese live comfortably, have access to higher education and have expectations of economic improvement?

Nope. But all Americans do. Right???

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

The government is improving, but certainly not perfect. The Chinese people I know concur with that. An entity responsible for maintaining a society with 1.3 billion people cannot change rapidly without the risk of catastrophic results.

Improving how? Becoming more democratic or something else? Are you suggesting that those who object to human rights abuses hate everything chinese? When has anyone suggested that china represents evil?

China is not, nor was it ever a communist state. I am not sure that there are any states that actually embraced communism although there were certainly several countries, China included that adopted the label in order to co erce their poorest people into supporting dictatorship goverments.

Improving; in terms of opening to the rest of the world. Improving; in terms of freedom (e.g. religious tolerance). Improving; in terms of becoming a modern society on par with any other in the world with all the benefits for the population that implies.

Contrary to popular belief: Not every good government is a Democracy. Speaking of becoming something else, take a close look at the direction Amerika is headed.

So, you're saying that the poorest people in China have an influence in government? Interesting.

What's your view of the treatment of Hu Jia and Wang Guilin?

What about Tibet?

[Ursa Tripudio 2]

Hu Jia and Wang Guilin

One thing that happens when a population reaches astronomical proportions is that subversion and incitement of anti-government movements will be suppressed. Maintaining the infrastructure and social order in a country like China is a much more difficult task than any other country in the world.

These people violated laws and (whether you agree with the law or not) are paying the price. They're not being tortured or killed. They're being detained. Happens in America all the time (probably more than in China).

Tibet

In a nutshell: The Tibetans were incited by monks to riot and commit acts of violence against the Han Chinese. 14 people were killed by the Tibetans, mostly people who were burned alive in buildings that were set on fire by the rioters while they also attacked and disabled firetrucks.

Yeah, the Chinese really had a 'crackdown' on these Tibetans. I'm sure in America, the police would have just let them continue until the the entire city was in ruins and all the Han Chinese were dead.

Me:

I'm going to bed. Perhaps, I'll debate more tomorrow. G'nite.

[Peikko 1,575]

Improving; in terms of opening to the rest of the world. Improving; in terms of freedom (e.g. religious tolerance). Improving; in terms of becoming a modern society on par with any other in the world with all the benefits for the population that implies. Contrary to popular belief: Not every good government is a Democracy. Speaking of becoming something else, take a close look at the direction Amerika is headed.

So, good goverment can be imposed? It doesn't require actually knowing what the people want? Sort of like a benevelant dictarship?(by the people I do mean the population) That's on a par with the idea that women in a marriage should be happy to be ruled by their husband so long as he lays down his rules with kindness.

So, you're saying that the poorest people in China have an influence in government? Interesting.

Erm, no, I suggested that the communists revolutions were supported by the poorest people because they believed, falsely as it turned out, that the goverments were going to implement policies that would improve their lot to something more comfortable than subsistance.

Nope. But all Americans do. Right???

I am not blinded by western democracy, they are not universally successful and some of the freedoms that we believe everyone has access to don't always translate into reality for all kinds of reason, particulary in terms of upward mobility but that is why we have politcal parties and elections to choose people who will work to improve society further. However, that's not to say that I would swap Westrn democracy and its limitations for a benevolant dictatorship, if that is what you are suggesting the current Chines goverment is.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Hu Jia and Wang Guilin

One thing that happens when a population reaches astronomical proportions is that subversion and incitement of anti-government movements will be suppressed. Maintaining the infrastructure and social order in a country like China is a much more difficult task than any other country in the world.

These people violated laws and (whether you agree with the law or not) are paying the price. They're not being tortured or killed. They're being detained. Happens in America all the time (probably more than in China).

Tibet

In a nutshell: The Tibetans were incited by monks to riot and commit acts of violence against the Han Chinese. 14 people were killed by the Tibetans, mostly people who were burned alive in buildings that were set on fire by the rioters while they also attacked and disabled firetrucks.

Yeah, the Chinese really had a 'crackdown' on these Tibetans. I'm sure in America, the police would have just let them continue until the the entire city was in ruins and all the Han Chinese were dead.

Me:

I'm going to bed. Perhaps, I'll debate more tomorrow. G'nite.

If writing a few articles is enough to get a person several years in a hard labour camp, and for that to not be considered harsh or abusive - then I'm afraid I really don't know what to say to that...

As to torture - that's a rather more murky discussion.

Edited April 24, 2008 by Number 6

[Peikko 1,575]

In a nutshell: The Tibetans were incited by monks to riot and commit acts of violence against the Han Chinese. 14 people were killed by the Tibetans, mostly people who were burned alive in buildings that were set on fire by the rioters while they also attacked and disabled firetrucks.

Yeah, the Chinese really had a 'crackdown' on these Tibetans. I'm sure in America, the police would have just let them continue until the the entire city was in ruins and all the Han Chinese were dead.

An interesting perspective on the Tibetan situation.

[Ban Hammer 13,334]

How has the Chinese government or the Chinese people been involved in protesting American human rights abuses? Should they get involved in our internal affairs and perhaps hold our $1.4 trillion dollar debt over our heads until we comply with the way the Chinese think America aught to be?

The Chinese are not so arrogant.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

However, that's not to say that I would swap Westrn democracy and its limitations for a benevolant dictatorship, if that is what you are suggesting the current Chines goverment is.

I know a few people have a love affair for harsher prison sentences - but being given hard labour for writing a few letters and articles is a bit OTT.

[Peikko 1,575]

The uncomfortable truth is, that human beings, as a species, have over populated this planet several times over. There is currently no possible way to adequately feed, clothe and sustain this number of human beings and allow them all to live in moderate comfort with prospects for growth and upward mobility. The resources available are simply insufficient to do that. There is no system of government that can 'fix' that little conundrum.

Edited April 24, 2008 by Purple_Hibiscus

[Heracles 417]

The uncomfortable truth is, that human beings, as a species, have over populated this planet several times over. There is currently no possible way to adequately feed, clothe and sustain this number of human beings and allow them all to live in moderate comfort with prospects for growth and upward mobility. The resources available are simply insufficient to do that. There is no system of government that can 'fix' that little conundrum.

Well it does depend on the country. Australia has a good mix of 21,000,000 people in such a large country. Technically the largest island in the world. There is enough space and food to cater for the population. Whenever anyone has come to visit form the UK or US they love the abundant fresh food available there. Whereas the US has what 2 million people entering here illegally per year. Totally unsustainable by the environment.

One of the first things I find people from the UK love when migrating to Australia is the large open spaces, parks etc. Whereas the UK has way too many people for such a small country. So quality of life really suffers.

Edited April 24, 2008 by Boo-Yah!

[Peikko 1,575]

BY that's one of the real problems that face us as a species. A disproportionately small percentage of the world population have control over a disproportionately large percentage of global wealth. On a global scale, the human species has overpopulated the planet. Places like China have to deal day to day with this crisis because this is one of the areas the overpopulation does have a significant and damaging effect and no system of government is going to be able to 'fix' this problem.

That there are effectively underpopulated places contrasting the overpopulated places somewhat exacerbates these problems.

[jundp 191]

It is NOT fear-mongering when you are talking about human rights abuses. Is it fear-mongering because people oppose the use of US led torture too?

How has the Chinese government or the Chinese people been involved in protesting American human rights abuses? Should they get involved in our internal affairs and perhaps hold our $1.4 trillion dollar debt over our heads until we comply with the way the Chinese think America aught to be?

The Chinese are not so arrogant.

I was referring to the AMERICANS who consider it "liberal fear mongering" or "commie" to call out our own country for its human rights abuses.

And as for the rest, yes, I also have spent time with "real" Chinese people (I teach many of them)

Me too. As well as having several Chinese colleagues, all with PhDs. We have very interesting dialogs concerning these topics on a regular basis. I also travel to China annually to work with various Chinese universities.

I don't travel to China, and I admit that my information is only second hand, from students and from my step-mother and her colleagues. But these people are giving me information based on their knowledge and experience in China. It is possible that they have differing points of view from your own colleagues. And I don't believe that just because someone has a PhD means their pov is more valid.

That China doesn't have any power to stop giving money to the Sudanese government which in turn supplies the guerilla forces with the power and ammo to kill hundreds of thousands and displace millions?

Sudan's resources are going to be tapped by someone. I suppose that if China wasn't doing it, it would be America. But then it would be OK. Huh? Maybe, America would be more righteous about it and invade the country first.

I'll refer to your previous comment. When did I say this (in fact, I have said quite the opposite in many postings on VJ)? Your accusation holds no water and doesn't fly with me.

And that it's a big fat lie that Tibetans are being abused and murdered

YES!

I do not believe this. At all.

I say bulls!t. Having a problem with the way the government treats its people, hell, having a problem with ANYONE or ANY ENTITY that engages in human rights abuses is called having a conscious.

I will not resort to profanity and will argue my points intelligently.

I did argue my points intelligently and passionately. And I still disagree with much of what you said.