Canberra, Sydney protests over torch relay

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Yes, they could hurt America badly. But, that is the opposite of their intention. We are fortunate that what China really wants from America is a good, solid trading partner. However, that is government to government.

Our propaganda has hurt the Chinese people. They can and do communicate on the internet, (just like us). The boycotts have nothing to do with the government. The Chinese people are tired of the insults and lies in the Western press and are passing the word to each other. It’s like a very very big snowball rolling down a steep steep hill.

I am not surprised they are angry. The Chinese actually love their country so yes they do get offended when someone insults it. A NYT equivalence would be burned down there.

Yeah - they'd apparently rather have state controlled censors monitoring all published material, and access to information through the internet restricted by law.

[Heracles 417]

However, who cares right? After all the UN is useless and the declaration of human rights is unimportant because we have the bible - It's just too liberal, inconvenient and downright intrusive to get involved in other people's goverment just over a few little human rights issues. Unless of course, they do something that threatens OUR way of life and then they must be crushed.

What is your point though. China will not give up Tibet without a physical fight. They don't want to negotiate or discuss it period. They are certainly not going to be intimidated by some liberal protesters either. That is the reality.

[jundp 191]

The simple answer is that the two economies are inextricably linked - the US government can't afford a total boycott of China any more than China can afford to cut off its biggest export client.

I have to say I don't buy this idea of yours that individual citizens should "keep their mouths" shut over human rights abuses out of the fear of Chinese retribution. Its just fear-mongering.

True.

It is NOT fear-mongering when you are talking about human rights abuses. Is it fear-mongering because people oppose the use of US led torture too?

I think you may have misunderstood what I wrote. I was addressing the suggestion that 1st world citizens should "shut their mouths" out of fear that if China so chose they could shut down the US economically. That IS fearmongering.

Constitutionally its also a bit "off" to suggest that free speech should somehow be limited for fear of reprisal - it sounds suspicously like appeasement.

I was agreeing with you #6. But I was being sarcastic Saying that I suppose opposing US led torture and being vocal and "disrupting peoples' peace" is also fear-mongering....or whatever was said earlier.

And to PH....I absolutely agree with your post (I'm not sure that's ever happened!)

However, who cares right? After all the UN is useless and the declaration of human rights is unimportant because we have the bible - It's just too liberal, inconvenient and downright intrusive to get involved in other people's goverment just over a few little human rights issues. Unless of course, they do something that threatens OUR way of life and then they must be crushed.

What is your point though. China will not give up Tibet without a physical fight. They don't want to negotiate or discuss it period. They are certainly not going to be intimidated by some liberal protesters either. That is the reality.

That does not mean that people should stand by quietly and allow China to commit atrocities against Tibetans.

Again, that's what too many people did during WWII...and 11 million people were killed by the Nazis. 11 million. Perhaps my voice won't make a difference, but I couldn't live with myself if I didn't use it.

[Heracles 417]

Yeah - they'd apparently rather have state controlled censors monitoring all published material, and access to information through the internet restricted by law.

Well they certainly don't want BS liberal values in their society or country. Good for them as they can clearly see how this has worked out for us.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Yeah - they'd apparently rather have state controlled censors monitoring all published material, and access to information through the internet restricted by law.

Well they certainly don't want BS liberal values in their society or country. Good for them as they can clearly see how this has worked out for us.

I like the way you speak in absolutes over things that you cannot possibly back up. I might as well come out and say "most Chinese people believe in Santa Claus" there's no way I can possibly support such a statement. And neither can you.

Good for them you say....? Does this mean then that you admire communist-style authoritarian government?

Edited April 24, 2008 by Number 6

[Heracles 417]

That does not mean that people should stand by quietly and allow China to commit atrocities against Tibetans.

Again, that's what too many people did during WWII...and 11 million people were killed by the Nazis. 11 million. Perhaps my voice won't make a difference, but I couldn't live with myself if I didn't use it.

We are not even doing anything in a piss ant country like Sudan, where people are actually being butchered every single day, yet are expected to take on China.

Can you believe this ####. This guy is a human being but oh no we cannot send troops there and offend liberals. Love not war right.

Yeah - they'd apparently rather have state controlled censors monitoring all published material, and access to information through the internet restricted by law.

Well they certainly don't want BS liberal values in their society or country. Good for them as they can clearly see how this has worked out for us.

I like the way you speak in absolutes over things that you cannot possibly back up. I might as well come out and say "most Chinese people believe in Santa Claus" there's no way I can possibly support such a statement. And neither can you.

Good for them you say....? Does this mean then that you admire communist-style authoritarian government?

I can actually. They have banned a lot of the ####### that liberals admire here. Therefore they clearly do not agree with it. Heck Australia has half the ####### that liberals admire off limits.

Edited April 24, 2008 by Boo-Yah!

[Peikko 1,575]

Well they certainly don't want BS liberal values in their society or country. Good for them as they can clearly see how this has worked out for us.

That is just bizarre, if you have a free and democratic society you aren't going to like every idea that is put forward, every law that is implemented, every policy that is voted on or every message that is voiced. Does that mean you would prefer to have a dictatorship that follows the BY philosophy? In a dictatorship only the elite get to decide what is good for everybody. In a democracy everyone opportunity to put forward their ideas but that of course doesn't guarentee that they will be implemented.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

That does not mean that people should stand by quietly and allow China to commit atrocities against Tibetans.

Again, that's what too many people did during WWII...and 11 million people were killed by the Nazis. 11 million. Perhaps my voice won't make a difference, but I couldn't live with myself if I didn't use it.

We are not even doing anything in a piss ant country like Sudan, where people are actually being butchered every single day, yet are expected to take on China.

Can you believe this ####. This guy is a human being but oh no we cannot send troops there and offend liberals. Love not war right.

Yeah - they'd apparently rather have state controlled censors monitoring all published material, and access to information through the internet restricted by law.

Well they certainly don't want BS liberal values in their society or country. Good for them as they can clearly see how this has worked out for us.

I like the way you speak in absolutes over things that you cannot possibly back up. I might as well come out and say "most Chinese people believe in Santa Claus" there's no way I can possibly support such a statement. And neither can you.

Good for them you say....? Does this mean then that you admire communist-style authoritarian government?

I can actually. They have banned a lot of the ####### that liberals pull here. Therefore they clearly do not agree with it. Heck Australia has half the ####### that liberals admire off limits.

OK. So let me get this straight... Because the authoritarian "government" has banned "a lot of the ####### that liberals pull here" this means that the Chinese "people" broadly support the bans>

You learn something every day. Free press = bad. State propaganda = good.

Interesting.

P.S. Noone is "taking on" China. People are expressing their objections to China's decades-old military occupation of Tibet. Neither are people turning a blind-eye to what's going on in Darfur. Perhaps the question you should be asking is why Iraq was granted priority over Sudan?

Could it be... just possibly... that government foreign policy isn't based on humanitarianism but on geopolitics and economic self-interest?

It could actually. And this is not a new criticism.

Edited April 24, 2008 by Number 6

[Ursa Tripudio 2]

It is NOT fear-mongering when you are talking about human rights abuses. Is it fear-mongering because people oppose the use of US led torture too?

How has the Chinese government or the Chinese people been involved in protesting American human rights abuses? Should they get involved in our internal affairs and perhaps hold our $1.4 trillion dollar debt over our heads until we comply with the way the Chinese think America aught to be?

The Chinese are not so arrogant.

And as for the rest, yes, I also have spent time with "real" Chinese people (I teach many of them)

Me too. As well as having several Chinese colleagues, all with PhDs. We have very interesting dialogs concerning these topics on a regular basis. I also travel to China annually to work with various Chinese universities.

I don't have a problem with the "people" (generic term) I have a problem with the government and their dealings. Are you trying to tell me that it's all a big fat lie?

In general, the Chinese people have been very good to me. No problems.

The government is improving, but certainly not perfect. The Chinese people I know concur with that. An entity responsible for maintaining a society with 1.3 billion people cannot change rapidly without the risk of catastrophic results.

You have expanded my statement to a tautology which cannot be supported. That is not a logically valid argument and won't fly with me. Do you believe this is a completely black or white, all or nothing, scenario? I don't, and, I never said that.

Have a lot of falsehoods been committed by the Western media? Absolutely. Have the stories been biased as well as inaccurate? Absolutely. Has this created anger in the Chinese population that didn't previously exist? Absolutely. Is there any reason for it? I'm suspicious, but I'm not sure.

That China doesn't have any power to stop giving money to the Sudanese government which in turn supplies the guerilla forces with the power and ammo to kill hundreds of thousands and displace millions?

I have not studied this topic and cannot comment intelligently on it. However, I do not support the position that has been perpetrated by the western media propaganda that China is inherently evil.

Sudan's resources are going to be tapped by someone. I suppose that if China wasn't doing it, it would be America. But then it would be OK. Huh? Maybe, America would be more righteous about it and invade the country first.

And that it's a big fat lie that Tibetans are being abused and murdered

YES!

and that censorship is alive and well in China and that no human rights abuses are taking place?

No more than in America.

I say bulls!t. Having a problem with the way the government treats its people, hell, having a problem with ANYONE or ANY ENTITY that engages in human rights abuses is called having a conscious.

I will not resort to profanity and will argue my points intelligently.

[Heracles 417]

OK. So let me get this straight... Because the authoritarian "government" has banned "a lot of the ####### that liberals pull here" this means that the Chinese "people" broadly support the bans>

You learn something every day. Free press = bad. State propaganda = good.

Interesting.

P.S. Noone is "taking on" China. People are expressing their objections to China's decades-old military occupation of Tibet. Neither are people turning a blind-eye to what's going on in Darfur. Perhaps the question you should be asking is why Iraq was granted priority over Sudan?

Could it be... just possibly... that government foreign policy isn't based on humanitarianism but on geopolitics and economic self-interest?

It could actually. And this is not a new criticism.

Maybe the average Joe in China likes that. Why is that so hard to believe. 1.3 billion people do live there after all.

Give me a break. If we sent troops to Sudan the same people saying free Tibet would cry and find some resource we are apparently exploiting.

[Peikko 1,575]

The government is improving, but certainly not perfect. The Chinese people I know concur with that. An entity responsible for maintaining a society with 1.3 billion people cannot change rapidly without the risk of catastrophic results.

Improving how? Becoming more democratic or something else? Are you suggesting that those who object to human rights abuses hate everything chinese? When has anyone suggested that china represents evil?

China is not, nor was it ever a communist state. I am not sure that there are any states that actually embraced communism although there were certainly several countries, China included that adopted the label in order to co erce their poorest people into supporting dictatorship goverments.

[Peikko 1,575]

1.3 billion chinese live comfortably, have access to higher education and have expectations of economic improvement?

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

OK. So let me get this straight... Because the authoritarian "government" has banned "a lot of the ####### that liberals pull here" this means that the Chinese "people" broadly support the bans>

You learn something every day. Free press = bad. State propaganda = good.

Interesting.

P.S. Noone is "taking on" China. People are expressing their objections to China's decades-old military occupation of Tibet. Neither are people turning a blind-eye to what's going on in Darfur. Perhaps the question you should be asking is why Iraq was granted priority over Sudan?

Could it be... just possibly... that government foreign policy isn't based on humanitarianism but on geopolitics and economic self-interest?

It could actually. And this is not a new criticism.

Maybe the average Joe in China likes that. Why is that so hard to believe. 1.3 billion people do live there after all.

Give me a break. If we sent troops to Sudan the same people saying free Tibet would cry and find some resource we are apparently exploiting.

The Chinese media is heavily regulated by the state. If the media is a barometer of public opinion (a contentious argument) - that makes it rather suspect.

It doesn't really make much of a difference how many people live there.

Edited April 24, 2008 by Number 6

[Heracles 417]

The Chinese media is heavily regulated by the state. If the media is a barometer of public opinion (a contentious argument) - that makes it rather suspect.

I understand that but this does not discredit the people's belief in their country or system of government. Maybe they think democracy is a failure. Maybe they think we are the foolish ones being manipulated by ALCU's and so forth..

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

The Chinese media is heavily regulated by the state. If the media is a barometer of public opinion (a contentious argument) - that makes it rather suspect.

I understand that but this does not discredit the people's belief in their country or system of government. Maybe they think democracy is a failure. Maybe they think we are the foolish ones being manipulated by ALCU's and so forth..

Well that's your opinion of course - but there is a difference between what those people believe and what you or I think that they believe. I'm not prepared to commit to speculation either way on that score - its simply pointless.