Muta marriage in Egypt

[mohamed N melinda 0]

since non of her familly isnot muslim or any of her blood was muslim so she were her own wali

Thanks for answering.

Does a wali have to be blood in Egypt? In the U.S., converts regularly use an imam or another upstanding member of the community to represent them as a wali.

it is prefer to be from her own blood

and you are so welcome

[jpaula 20]

sarra you are out of this cause she say she only go by sharia and sharia is quraan say regarldless fiqh.

so if we by sharia no excuse and the one who steal has to cut his hand

the one who kill have to be killed regarless human rights thats if we go by sharia as it is

u got me?

Do you not believe in following the Quran rather than fiqh when the two disagree? Or, how does one go about weighing two scholarly opinions that differ (for example, the ones you posted at the beginning of this thread regarding Muslim women and non-Muslim men) if not by looking to sharia? She is nowhere claiming that fiqh is in and of itself wrong; she is claiming that it is often not following sharia and that when it does not, sharia must be primary. All the more important combined with the observation that fiqh has recently been overrrun by salafi scholars with a sexist base and a big wad of cash to spread that base. But, most importantly, Muslims need to be self-educated and understand their own Book rather than relying on scholars to do it for them. When you can post on-line fatwa explaining why zina is punishable by death by stoning, but can not show the same in sharia, and then use this to support the practice, I cannot help but agree with her vehemently.

You can scholar shop and find support for anything you wish to find. At some point, you have to rely on your own knowledge to understand (rather than repeat) their arguments and to be able to decide for yourself.

If Islam today were judged solely on fiqh, I am afraid it would appear the misogynist violent religion it is often accused of being. It is people like VW, who force themselves to go to the source and understand the compexity of a rich religion and who then are able to speak with knowledge (if not always diplomacy ) for themselves, who are able to speak for a beautiful, if rigorous, religion. If there were more of them here, perhaps this discussion could be enriched by intelligent debate for I am sure that all do not agree on most points. So while answers may not be black and white or even easily derived, I just cannot understand arguing against self-education and original thought.

[mohamed N melinda 0]

good night every one

[Sofiyya 1,687]

now you say fiqh is supposed to derive from sharia lol

I've said that several times.

if u go by sharia u have to follow quran and u did take non muslim husband and quran didnot say u thats allowed since quran didnot say that allowed so if there is not any permission listed for that then the answer is it is not allowed

you only takes what suit your needs about laws in islam

since you dont follow sharia nor fiqh so what your flowwing?

i can tell you YOUR PERSONAL DISERS

I bet this exchange would have gone much better if you would read my posts instead of thinking up another insult.

Explicit permission isn't needed for a lot of things we do. Since it doesn't say Muslimas CAN'T marry ahl al kitab men, there is no prohibition against it authored by Allah. That means that interfaith marriage for Muslim women isn't haram because Allah has not pronounced it to be haram and mortals can't.

I do follow sharia, and I follow fiqh that comports with sharia. Some of the advantage that I have over you when discussing them is that (a) I know one from the other, (B) I don't switch bad and forth between them to suit my purposes, © I've read the Quran, (d) Since no existing culture defines Islam, I separate culture from Islam, and, (e) I don't use Islam as a cover for my mistakes.

[Aymsgirl 0]

Thank you t and a for the information on the reason Egypt was not excepting marriages. I learn something new everyday. So it was just a few months and over a form....wow.

I imagine alot of people took the other route, waiting til it was legal, if they indeed wanted to have the wedding in Egypt.

Jackie

Jackie, yes months and a form. I am thinking around 11 months and then they posted on their website they were issuing the affadavit. Not sure if any changes were made on it and if the hold out was actually for that or to track the round about number of attempts of marriage between the two nations??? Who knows, but its over now.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Are you sure you're Jewish, sis? You sure get the nuance of our Islam discussions. Well, it was the learned Jews that Allah directed our Nabi to consult about the law. They were doing something right!

sarra you are out of this cause she say she only go by sharia and sharia is quraan say regarldless fiqh.

so if we by sharia no excuse and the one who steal has to cut his hand

the one who kill have to be killed regarless human rights thats if we go by sharia as it is

u got me?

Do you not believe in following the Quran rather than fiqh when the two disagree? Or, how does one go about weighing two scholarly opinions that differ (for example, the ones you posted at the beginning of this thread regarding Muslim women and non-Muslim men) if not by looking to sharia? She is nowhere claiming that fiqh is in and of itself wrong; she is claiming that it is often not following sharia and that when it does not, sharia must be primary. All the more important combined with the observation that fiqh has recently been overrrun by salafi scholars with a sexist base and a big wad of cash to spread that base. But, most importantly, Muslims need to be self-educated and understand their own Book rather than relying on scholars to do it for them. When you can post on-line fatwa explaining why zina is punishable by death by stoning, but can not show the same in sharia, and then use this to support the practice, I cannot help but agree with her vehemently.

You can scholar shop and find support for anything you wish to find. At some point, you have to rely on your own knowledge to understand (rather than repeat) their arguments and to be able to decide for yourself.

If Islam today were judged solely on fiqh, I am afraid it would appear the misogynist violent religion it is often accused of being. It is people like VW, who force themselves to go to the source and understand the compexity of a rich religion and who then are able to speak with knowledge (if not always diplomacy ) for themselves, who are able to speak for a beautiful, if rigorous, religion. If there were more of them here, perhaps this discussion could be enriched by intelligent debate for I am sure that all do not agree on most points. So while answers may not be black and white or even easily derived, I just cannot understand arguing against self-education and original thought.

[Nasturtium 500]

I think that western women, charmed by the exotic nature of a foreign culture and faith, are easily lead to believe that a nikah is a nikah is a nikah. Certainly, that is not so, and western women, convert or not, imbued in Christian ideology of the sacrement of marriage in their heads, fall all too fast for "marriage in God's eyes", something they are less likely to do with a western man.

I thought I'd toss this out there in relation to what you said here. The reason the Catholic church made marraige a sacrament in... I'd have to look it up but it was the 12th or 13th century... is because of this very issue. They had way too many people coming to priests and one saying they married "before G-d" and the other saying they were not married. This was verbal contract. So the church changed the laws making people declare it on the church steps before G-d and everyone else so there was no confusion about who was and was not married.

[aisha kandisha 0]

sarra you are out of this cause she say she only go by sharia and sharia is quraan say regarldless fiqh.

so if we by sharia no excuse and the one who steal has to cut his hand

the one who kill have to be killed regarless human rights thats if we go by sharia as it is

u got me?

Do you not believe in following the Quran rather than fiqh when the two disagree? Or, how does one go about weighing two scholarly opinions that differ (for example, the ones you posted at the beginning of this thread regarding Muslim women and non-Muslim men) if not by looking to sharia? She is nowhere claiming that fiqh is in and of itself wrong; she is claiming that it is often not following sharia and that when it does not, sharia must be primary. All the more important combined with the observation that fiqh has recently been overrrun by salafi scholars with a sexist base and a big wad of cash to spread that base. But, most importantly, Muslims need to be self-educated and understand their own Book rather than relying on scholars to do it for them. When you can post on-line fatwa explaining why zina is punishable by death by stoning, but can not show the same in sharia, and then use this to support the practice, I cannot help but agree with her vehemently.

You can scholar shop and find support for anything you wish to find. At some point, you have to rely on your own knowledge to understand (rather than repeat) their arguments and to be able to decide for yourself.

If Islam today were judged solely on fiqh, I am afraid it would appear the misogynist violent religion it is often accused of being. It is people like VW, who force themselves to go to the source and understand the compexity of a rich religion and who then are able to speak with knowledge (if not always diplomacy ) for themselves, who are able to speak for a beautiful, if rigorous, religion. If there were more of them here, perhaps this discussion could be enriched by intelligent debate for I am sure that all do not agree on most points. So while answers may not be black and white or even easily derived, I just cannot understand arguing against self-education and original thought.

I think it is one thing to become familiar with the Qur'an, but for the average Muslim to understand and implement the Sunnah to determine Sharia is quite another feat, and Sharia is comprised of both the Qur'an and Sunnah. People dedicate lifetimes studying Sunnah, there are different methodologies in approaching Sunnah texts, and there is no consensus as to what should constitute Sunnah when it comes to Sharia, as is the case of ahadith, which has its own science behind it. I think everyone should strive to continually learn, but an expectation of Muslims to understand and implement Sharia on their own without reliance on scholars is like expecting them to administer health care to their families without medical doctors.

ETA: Obviously a reliance on scholars carries its own responsibilities, and fly-by-night internet "scholars" should be no one's choice.

Edited April 20, 2008 by aisha kandisha

[jpaula 20]

I think it is one thing to become familiar with the Qur'an, but for the average Muslim to understand and implement the Sunnah to determine Sharia is quite another feat, and Sharia is comprised of both the Qur'an and Sunnah. People dedicate lifetimes studying Sunnah, there are different methodologies in approaching Sunnah texts, and there is no consensus as to what should constitute Sunnah when it comes to Sharia, as is the case of ahadith, which has its own science behind it. I think everyone should strive to continually learn, but an expectation of Muslims to understand and implement Sharia on their own without reliance on scholars is like expecting them to administer health care to their families without medical doctors.

ETA: Obviously a reliance on scholars carries its own responsibilities, and fly-by-night internet "scholars" should be no one's choice.

I understand that and perhaps made it all sound too easy. I just get really frustrated with the on-line scholar offs that discussions often devolve into. This applies rathern starkly to the debates about Islam here, but also to other realms, my own being discussion of political theory and policy. No matter what we have to take some responsibility for our own judgements, if not of the Quran and Sunnah directly then for which scholars we rely upon and why (as you noted).

There is no way to avoid having to think for one's self. I think we do great harm--in any religion, in politics, in relationships--when we abdicate our opinions and beliefs to others rather than take responsibility for ourselves. While never easy, our capacity to learn and to reason requires of us the time and effort. I worry that we have lost the filter that lets us sort through information and seperate opinion from reasoned argument. Modern life gives us more info and opinions than we care to keep up with, but less and less by way of thought and reason. Sometimes I wonder if the internet hasn't done the human mind more harm than good.

That is my melancholic Sunday evening take on the state of the world

[brnidokiegurl 0]

i just talk to ahmed and even in his simple way and the way i cant explain well here is what he say of this paper marriage

and when they throw paper like never been married

his meaning i guess to say if you decide to throw this paper away its like never been married, i think maybe us girls should ask all our guys since not many men come on here

I asked my husband about this as well. Lets just say I am glad that we are legally and Islamically married.

yes we had big discussion also because mostly i was not sure, but he explained to me same person did his sisters as ours, its registered there as well as here and he said this other way is only way for quick sex and if paper is gone no marriage, woman has no right, cant really remember more what he said but we did have longggggggg talk i needed to understand better

[Nasturtium 500]

I didn't have a marriage in a mosque or with an Imam, but we did follow the legal rules of Jordan and get married in the court. They had a set contract there which consisted of 4 pages (wife's copy, husband's copy, court copy, and some kind of government copy) and basically was fill-in-the-blank. The magistrate filled in the date, the names, the religions, the father's and mother's names, then it went on to the stated mahr and a place to state any conditions, and recorded verbal agreement and then at the bottom it had 5 signatures-- the people getting married, 2 witnesses, and the magistrate. This is partially what you're talking about, right? We just could not draft our own contract. it had to be one of their legal contracts. In the smaller villages where he lives he and others have told me often the Imam will come to the house rather than the party go to the court, although when they got "engaged" in the first place, they took this contract and filled it out and just held on to it, and the Imam comes to the house to add the final authority in place of the magistrate in that kind of condition.... it's still the SAME contract form.

It's not the same contract all over. It depends on the law where you get married; under which controlling madhab and or trend. For example, in Indonesia, in some states, a man must have his first wife's consent to marry another woman. So, men go to another region to marry again where they don't need their wife's permission.

But, yes, you cannot just draw up a contract and put anything in it. That in and of itself is a substantial admission that the paper is worthless.

Ok, I see what you're saying. Thanks

As another aside, in Jordan now they have a law where they will search their records if a man wants a second wife then post the ad in the paper for all to see annoucing the marriage of the second wife to the husband... they do not do this except in the cases of second or more wives. This is part of their social and legal way of discouraging secret marriages. Apparantly, one of the ways to avoid this used to be to go a few cities over and get married there where no one knew you and settle secret wife #2+ there or elsewhere (away from your family).

[Nasturtium 500]

Thanks for answering.

Does a wali have to be blood in Egypt? In the U.S., converts regularly use an imam or another upstanding member of the community to represent them as a wali.

I was under the impression that unless you were divorced, you needed a wali as a single woman in Islam.... I don't know if that is right or not.... but in that case the officiant can be the wali of the girl if no one else is present who qualifies (or no one else qulaifies period).

[Hanna&Mohamed 0]

I will get this thread closed also. I know my marraige is done right! My friend talked to a Imam today and told him about this site and what people are saying. He said yes my marraige is accepted Islamically. Mohamed needs to bring our contract when he comes. We will have a wedding when he comes again in the mosque not by court here!To have it registered. So now everyone can be quiet about my marraige!!!

I ask questions before I do anything. There are reasons why we couldnt by the court. You have heard them all.

Also the flat in Egypt is in my name.

Children are very important in a muslim mans life. Very much!

[aisha kandisha 0]

I think it is one thing to become familiar with the Qur'an, but for the average Muslim to understand and implement the Sunnah to determine Sharia is quite another feat, and Sharia is comprised of both the Qur'an and Sunnah. People dedicate lifetimes studying Sunnah, there are different methodologies in approaching Sunnah texts, and there is no consensus as to what should constitute Sunnah when it comes to Sharia, as is the case of ahadith, which has its own science behind it. I think everyone should strive to continually learn, but an expectation of Muslims to understand and implement Sharia on their own without reliance on scholars is like expecting them to administer health care to their families without medical doctors.

ETA: Obviously a reliance on scholars carries its own responsibilities, and fly-by-night internet "scholars" should be no one's choice.

I understand that and perhaps made it all sound too easy. I just get really frustrated with the on-line scholar offs that discussions often devolve into. This applies rathern starkly to the debates about Islam here, but also to other realms, my own being discussion of political theory and policy. No matter what we have to take some responsibility for our own judgements, if not of the Quran and Sunnah directly then for which scholars we rely upon and why (as you noted).

There is no way to avoid having to think for one's self. I think we do great harm--in any religion, in politics, in relationships--when we abdicate our opinions and beliefs to others rather than take responsibility for ourselves. While never easy, our capacity to learn and to reason requires of us the time and effort. I worry that we have lost the filter that lets us sort through information and seperate opinion from reasoned argument. Modern life gives us more info and opinions than we care to keep up with, but less and less by way of thought and reason. Sometimes I wonder if the internet hasn't done the human mind more harm than good.

That is my melancholic Sunday evening take on the state of the world

I think common sense is often lacking. I don't think it takes any knowledge of Sharia to figure out that a marriage should be legally enforceable. Even if one argues registration is not required and is fully convinced of such, they should realize they would only be following the letter of the law and missing the spirit of the law. However, I cannot make the next leap that such people are fornicators, in a marriage not recognized in the eyes of God.

I think even those seeking a proper Islamic education, there is often too much focus on memorization (all those You Tube videos of young children who have memorized the Qur'an) and not enough encouragement for comprehending the circumstances around the revelation of those verses. Too many questions and one can be accused of not being reverent enough. The current state of things is a far cry from the Islamic Golden Age.

Ugh, the current primaries have left me feeling as you do too many nights.

[aisha kandisha 0]

Thanks for answering.

Does a wali have to be blood in Egypt? In the U.S., converts regularly use an imam or another upstanding member of the community to represent them as a wali.

I was under the impression that unless you were divorced, you needed a wali as a single woman in Islam.... I don't know if that is right or not.... but in that case the officiant can be the wali of the girl if no one else is present who qualifies (or no one else qulaifies period).

Views on walis for converts vary depending on what school you follow, but it is correct, the officiant often serves as the wali for converts.