Non-Muslims married to Muslim MENA

[Jenn! 918]

Marriage between Muslims and non-Muslims are not considered to be the ideal. However, Allah allows for them under certain cirsumstances. They are:

Q 5:5 That they be between chaste Muslims and chaste people of the Book (Christians and Jews)

Q 24:3 That they be between Muslim fornicators and non-believers (this is a specific class of non-Muslim)

Q 2:222 That Muslims avoid marriage with those who worship false Gods (some would include Christians among them)

Q 60:10-11 That we avoid marriage with those hostile to Islam and Muslims (quite reasonable)

Sorry, the evidence is not to be avoided so it can be pc. And, it's not a matter of intending to insult anyone; everyone knows what category they are in better than I do.

Aren't the two bolded ones contradictory?

I saved your post for last, jenn, because I knew it would come. And I was so glad it did. Mohammed also asked me how I can justify mixed marriage for Muslims if the ayat 2:221 and 60:10-11 forbid it.

The problem is that novices often generalize the specific in the text and specify the general in the text while plucking a single ayah away form surrounding ayah, the contextual history of its revelation, the linguistics involved, and how the Prophet personified the text.

If one merely isolated the two bolded sections you refer to, it would be easy to deduce that Christians are not allowed in marriage to Muslims. But, there is more to it than that.

We already know that not all Muslims will enter heaven. Allah is not as interested in what label you give yourself as He is in your acts. The Quran is the only sacred Abrahamic text that specifically allows for mixed marriages, and the only one that declares that there will be non-Muslims in heaven. It is careful to avoid blanketing entire groups of people as heretics, but bases one’s piety on character, values and behavior.

For example, in 2:221, the terminology used is definitive, and refers to practice rather than an entire group of people. The same is true for 60:10, and 5:5. There are characteristics involved that qualify an individual as halal or not, just as the directive that unchaste Muslims marry only other unchaste Muslims or an unbeliever. Islam teaches that we will be judged by Him as individuals, for our own acts and deeds, not for those of others around you.

The term “unbeliever” is commonly abused one in transliterations of the Arabic. It is not meant to refer to all non-Muslims, and the Arabic is more nuanced than the agenda behind the common use of that word. Therefore, there are those among non-Muslims who are devoted to God and in service to His Creation, who worship sincerely and keep to His laws, who avidly seek to please Him in Word and deed. They are not perfect, but are earnest. Allah says it matter not that they abide by the scriptures of the Torah or the Bible, their reward will be with Him.

Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. Q 5.69

In the Prophets inner circle, there were mixed faith couples where the wife was Muslim and the husband was not. He didn’t ask them to divorce as long as there was harmony in the union. That was also the case with his own daughter, Zaynab, who remained with her non-Muslim husband, until he became kafir by engaging in hostilities against the Muslims in the Battle of Badr (Q 60:10), and they were separated until his conversion.

If one keeps in mind that the premise of the Message is that all humans have free will to decie if and how they follow God, then individual practice gains more emphasis and importance, lessening the concept that whole groups are to be condemned because they do not call themselves Muslim. If there were no pious Christians or Jews, we would not be allowed to marry among them unless for the reason of fornication.

Allah actually intends for us to believe differently from each other as a test for how we learn to live together and to obey Him (Q 5:48 & 49:13). He expects us to protect the mutual God-given rights of all humanity, male and female:

O mankind! reverence your Guardian-Lord, who created you from a single person, created, of like nature, His mate, and from them twain scattered (like seeds) countless men and women;- reverence God, through whom ye demand your mutual (rights), and (reverence) the wombs (That bore you): for God ever watches over you. Q 4.1

We are created of like nature, one not superior one over the other due to nationality, ethnicity, race, or gender.

O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise (each other). Verily the most honored of you in the sight of God is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And God has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things). Q 49:13

Life is a test of faith. We are to learn how to live a God centered life, and to do it without animosity toward those whom God has chosen to adhere to faiths unlike our own.

And hold fast, all together, by the rope which God (stretches out for you), and be not divided among yourselves; and remember with gratitude God's favor on you; for ye were enemies and He joined your hearts in love, so that by His Grace, ye became brethren; and ye were on the brink of the pit of Fire, and He saved you from it. Thus doth God make His Signs clear to you: That ye may be guided. Q 3.103

To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what God hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to the e. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If God had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to God; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute; Q 5.48

Our Nabi married a variety of women, consulted the Jewish scriptures for guidance, took santuary from a Christian king for the safety of his ummah, sought the consul of strong females, and was not distracted by interfaith marriages between Muslim women and non-Muslim men. He depended upon the character of his allies, and the strength of their faith and values rather than their gender or labels to when seeking them out. This is the best example we follow when earning trust and forming unions.

I hope this is helpful to you.

Yes, thanks for your response.

I have to admit though I'm still rather confused about the issue. Are you saying that the term "false Gods" is deliberately not defined more specifically because it is intended that Muslims will interpret it in various ways?

I know I had a conversation a while ago about whether in Christianity (I think we were talking about Catholicism in particular) one "worships" beings other than God (i.e. Jesus, Mary, the Holy Spirit). I was told that worship was distinct from supplication and therefore Christians only worship one God. In which case, the Q5.5 and Q2.222 are not contradictory.

[brnidokiegurl 0]

VW your facts will always weigh more than the (in my opinion or i guess, or i think) BUT in the end each will only still have the mind set they were born and raised with. You presented the facts now just let all make their own choices as they see for themselves, thats all anyone can do with something like this.

[aisha kandisha 0]

Melinda and mohammed are not really married. They are not married in the "eyes of Allah" nor by Egyptian law. They are only married in their own minds. The thing that amuses me is their defense of doing sloppy seconds by signing a legally ambiguos contract in a lawyer's office, not at a masjid, and then claiming it to be Islamic. He will come here, and follow non-Muslim law again, by really marrying here, while ignoring the laws of marriage in Egypt, all because it was inconvenient to do so.

Allahu alim.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

I have to admit though I'm still rather confused about the issue. Are you saying that the term "false Gods" is deliberately not defined more specifically because it is intended that Muslims will interpret it in various ways?

Islam requires acceptance of the concept that there is only One God and that we are to submit to His Will. That there are Muslims who believe that Muslims are some sort of Chosen people and that those who do not call themselves Muslim are lumped together as kuffar is an unfortunate consequence of agenda driven teachings. Allah makes His Intent crystal clear. It is that we are all His Creation and that, in the end, we will be judged by Him on the basis of how we lived our lives. Since He has also decreed that it is His intention that our beliefs be diverse, it is our task to seek commonality in our diversity.

[doodlebugg 10]

for what she did ( marry non muslim men) (pretty sure he is muslim as is she)

no brindokiegurl u seem you didnot pay attention . virtual wife had non muslim husband before that why she defend like that intstead she addmit that was wrong

You live in Egypt right? Would your local scholar find fault in what you did or say you were a bad person because of the way you got married? If you explained all your circumstances to a local imam or scholar and that you could not easily get papers from the American Embassy to get married, would anyone fault you for marrying like you did to be able to be halal and good with each other?

I don't think so. You are in EGYPT right down the street from Al Azar University. Don't worry what some moron tells you. Talk to people where you live. I am sure without a shadow of a doubt that NO IMAM WOULD FAULT YOU FOR ANYTHING

Best of luck with your wife and baby

here in Egypt it is accepted by judge to marry in islmaically way

and i am have no DOUBT that our marriage is legal islmaically and halal and i dont care what vw think she can think what she wants

VW can speak quite well for herself, but I have read these threads over and over and I see it totally differently. She is not attacking anyone for getting married in whatever way they did. She is contesting the insistance that all that is required for a marriage to be Islamic is for it to take place in a mosque with two witnesses. She is insiting on the legal protections required and is frustrated that women are being talked out of these protections. She has outlined over and over what is required for an Islamic marriage and why. No one ever refutes this in an intelligent way. Saying it is hard, even impossible, to get married in Egypt does nothing to refute what she claims is required for a marriage to be Islamic. If people disagree they are welcome to ignore her, not care what she says. Or they can explain why they believe otherwise. But, that is not what happens. Instead, we get cut and paste and personal attacks. What is a shame to me is that there can be no intelligent debate or discussion.

jp islmaic marriage has to have 3 factors

1- acceptance between the couples

2- 2 adult witnesses

3- to be known for all poeple and not secret

if the 3 factors is found then your marriage is legal and Halal and there is no doubt in that and if you see thats not right let me know why and with evidence

thats the islmaically marriage and all muslims know the islamically marriage is more more than important than court marriage

even after we had out contract and went to register it by judge they didnot allow that that was tp protect rights as she saying and yes she have all her rights as flat in her own name, dowery and gold as wedding gift

Usama just cheered when I read him this. He doesn't post here but he said you are absolutely right.

[doodlebugg 10]

VW your facts will always weigh more than the (in my opinion or i guess, or i think) BUT in the end each will only still have the mind set they were born and raised with. You presented the facts now just let all make their own choices as they see for themselves, thats all anyone can do with something like this.

why do her facts weigh more? Because she's better at English? Trust me if Mohammed's english were more eloquent it would be a better debate but VW has the upper hand only because of her English ability. It's totally not a fair debate when one's mother tongue is not English and that's the only language available to debate in.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

for what she did ( marry non muslim men) (pretty sure he is muslim as is she)

no brindokiegurl u seem you didnot pay attention . virtual wife had non muslim husband before that why she defend like that intstead she addmit that was wrong

You live in Egypt right? Would your local scholar find fault in what you did or say you were a bad person because of the way you got married? If you explained all your circumstances to a local imam or scholar and that you could not easily get papers from the American Embassy to get married, would anyone fault you for marrying like you did to be able to be halal and good with each other?

I don't think so. You are in EGYPT right down the street from Al Azar University. Don't worry what some moron tells you. Talk to people where you live. I am sure without a shadow of a doubt that NO IMAM WOULD FAULT YOU FOR ANYTHING

Best of luck with your wife and baby

here in Egypt it is accepted by judge to marry in islmaically way

and i am have no DOUBT that our marriage is legal islmaically and halal and i dont care what vw think she can think what she wants

VW can speak quite well for herself, but I have read these threads over and over and I see it totally differently. She is not attacking anyone for getting married in whatever way they did. She is contesting the insistance that all that is required for a marriage to be Islamic is for it to take place in a mosque with two witnesses. She is insiting on the legal protections required and is frustrated that women are being talked out of these protections. She has outlined over and over what is required for an Islamic marriage and why. No one ever refutes this in an intelligent way. Saying it is hard, even impossible, to get married in Egypt does nothing to refute what she claims is required for a marriage to be Islamic. If people disagree they are welcome to ignore her, not care what she says. Or they can explain why they believe otherwise. But, that is not what happens. Instead, we get cut and paste and personal attacks. What is a shame to me is that there can be no intelligent debate or discussion.

jp islmaic marriage has to have 3 factors

1- acceptance between the couples

2- 2 adult witnesses

3- to be known for all poeple and not secret

if the 3 factors is found then your marriage is legal and Halal and there is no doubt in that and if you see thats not right let me know why and with evidence

thats the islmaically marriage and all muslims know the islamically marriage is more more than important than court marriage

even after we had out contract and went to register it by judge they didnot allow that that was tp protect rights as she saying and yes she have all her rights as flat in her own name, dowery and gold as wedding gift

Usama just cheered when I read him this. He doesn't post here but he said you are absolutely right.

Then. clearly, you equate Islamic marriage with a secular contract to buy a car. They have the same contractual elements, according to this logic. But, Muslim marriage is a bit more complicated than buying a car. But if your spouse is the same to you as a car, then a paper marriage is the way to go!

VW your facts will always weigh more than the (in my opinion or i guess, or i think) BUT in the end each will only still have the mind set they were born and raised with. You presented the facts now just let all make their own choices as they see for themselves, thats all anyone can do with something like this.

why do her facts weigh more? Because she's better at English? Trust me if Mohammed's english were more eloquent it would be a better debate but VW has the upper hand only because of her English ability. It's totally not a fair debate when one's mother tongue is not English and that's the only language available to debate in.

Please, he has no game in english or arabic. First thing he needs to do is read before he posts. In any language, what is halal and what is not remains the same. His convincing his convert woman to sign a paper in a lawyer's office and not making it official is not halal. I see that those who did the same are grasping at straws to convince others, but you will have to accept that the best comfort for you is within your small group.

Edited April 19, 2008 by Virtual wife

[~Jackie~ 30]

Then let it be KNOWN to the POE officer and the interviewing officer.

[doodlebugg 10]

Then let it be KNOWN to the POE officer and the interviewing officer.

They did and they are fine with it. My husband told me also that in Egypt they never go to the courts to register their marriage, they just have it in the mosques so apparently the entire population in Egypt is wrong and VW is right. UGH I wish he'd finish his cigarette break so I can get out of this topic!

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Then let it be KNOWN to the POE officer and the interviewing officer.

Thumbs up on that one! Test your convictions where it matters most. Start a movement. Live your beliefs out loud. Go for it!

Edited April 19, 2008 by Virtual wife

[sara535 15]

Then let it be KNOWN to the POE officer and the interviewing officer.

They did and they are fine with it. My husband told me also that in Egypt they never go to the courts to register their marriage, they just have it in the mosques so apparently the entire population in Egypt is wrong and VW is right. UGH I wish he'd finish his cigarette break so I can get out of this topic!

Bridget, TOTALLY out of curiousity, not starting anything, but was your marriage registered in egypt?

[Ihavequestions 419]

VW your facts will always weigh more than the (in my opinion or i guess, or i think) BUT in the end each will only still have the mind set they were born and raised with. You presented the facts now just let all make their own choices as they see for themselves, thats all anyone can do with something like this.

why do her facts weigh more? Because she's better at English? Trust me if Mohammed's english were more eloquent it would be a better debate but VW has the upper hand only because of her English ability. It's totally not a fair debate when one's mother tongue is not English and that's the only language available to debate in.

No, it's not that. I believe you misinterpreted what was said and I'm addressing it because I believe that's the crux of the problem with this thread.

"VW your facts will always weigh more than the (in my opinion or i guess, or i think)" means just that: Facts prove a point whereas statements such as "in my opinion," or "I guess," or "I think" won't. I can walk into my doctor's office and tell him "in my opinion" or "I guess" or "I think" I have a specific health problem, but my doctor would not - and should not! - take my opinion, guess, or thought on face value and start treating the affliction I presented. Instead, my doctor will run a series of tests, lay out a set of facts, then make a learned diagnosis. I could not take seriously any physician who would take my own self-assessments seriously. I want a doctor who will examine evidence and then costruct a proper course of treatment. I have standards about the quality of health care I expect. The very same set of standards, if not higher standards, should be set for anyone who questions the validity of someone's act of faith/acting within their faith. If someone questioned me do not doubt that I, too, would insist on a finger pointed to specific words in my Book that prove I'm wrong. We have that duty to ourselves and we have that duty to God.

This thread has become a whole lot of "in my opinion" and "I guess" and "I think" (usually followed by a series of attacks) and very little - if any - facts to support opinions, guesses, and whatever someone may think. It's such a shame, too. Not entirely because of the ugliness (Who said, "God doesn't make ugly"?!) but because, IN MY OPINION, sisters have a duty to look out for each other. Not just Muslim sisters, or Christian sisters, but all sisters.

Could we have a little more love, please?

And bobcorn. I'm out. And broke.

[Hanna&Mohamed 0]

we know we cant do that ! It is in egypt only!

Edited April 19, 2008 by mohamedandmelinda

[doodlebugg 10]

Then let it be KNOWN to the POE officer and the interviewing officer.

They did and they are fine with it. My husband told me also that in Egypt they never go to the courts to register their marriage, they just have it in the mosques so apparently the entire population in Egypt is wrong and VW is right. UGH I wish he'd finish his cigarette break so I can get out of this topic!

Bridget, TOTALLY out of curiousity, not starting anything, but was your marriage registered in egypt?

Yes it was BUT it was also before they changed the ruling on marrying Americans. If I had been there after that ruling existed we would have gotten married at the mosque like mohammed and melinda and filed the K-1. Actually I wish we had done that since then we wouldn't have had to just shell out $340 for the EAD application and he could have just gotten it stamped for FREE at the POE! I think that's so ridiculous that the K-1's get it for free and we have to pay! But that's another thread and habibi is done with his cigarette so it's time to introduce him to Costco and Target!

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Then let it be KNOWN to the POE officer and the interviewing officer.

They did and they are fine with it. My husband told me also that in Egypt they never go to the courts to register their marriage, they just have it in the mosques so apparently the entire population in Egypt is wrong and VW is right. UGH I wish he'd finish his cigarette break so I can get out of this topic!

What Muslims do and what Allah decrees isn't always in sync. If that kind of marriage was ok with the Egyptian government and their ruling ulema, then you wouldn't need to file a K1 afterwards. So, we're not talking about marriage, we're talking about K1, meaning NO MARRIAGE. If there was a marriage, we'd be talking about K3 or CR1. wouldn't we?