Non-Muslims married to Muslim MENA

[S and S 12]

The reason I chose not to correct them is because I am sunni and this is a shi'a practice. I don't know enough about shi'a beliefs to take on a whole sect of Islam. I have no personal interest in that battle. My husband's home country does enough of that without my help. In fact, they kill each other every day for it by twisting words of the Quran to justify their actions. Now if these women were sunni, that would be a different matter. Then I might feel I had the right grounds to say something.

They are Sunni. They did not do muta, it is misyar/urfi, the Sunni version of muta.

Really? I have not heard of this before. I will have to look it up. I didn't know such a thing existed in sunni Islam.

[HLM 1]

The reason I chose not to correct them is because I am sunni and this is a shi'a practice. I don't know enough about shi'a beliefs to take on a whole sect of Islam. I have no personal interest in that battle. My husband's home country does enough of that without my help. In fact, they kill each other every day for it by twisting words of the Quran to justify their actions. Now if these women were sunni, that would be a different matter. Then I might feel I had the right grounds to say something.

They are Sunni. They did not do muta, it is misyar/urfi, the Sunni version of muta.

Really? I have not heard of this before. I will have to look it up. I didn't know such a thing existed in sunni Islam.

S and S misyar is muta...and thats not what they did. and yes its not in sunnah and jama'ah...

Edited April 19, 2008 by HisLittleMasriyah

[KEK 0]

Has someone here spoken of hell-fire, damnation and threats of eternal burning in hell? I must have missed the "silly technicalities" too. It seems some folks are projecting their own latant fears onto this discussion.

Silly technicalities. Such as - how many people need to witness an act of adultery, before the woman can be "legitimately" stoned. Or who you can or can't marry, to avoid displeasing God and going to hell (who cares if you love them or not). Sorry if I insulted anyone, but to me it's not reflective of a loving God, the one I actually believe in. And it happens in all religions, including my own, so I'm not trying to single out a specific faith here.

Yeah I'm afraid of when people tell me I could go to hell, if I don't believe in all the right things, in all the right ways. And if I was a woman in one of those countries where stoning is used to enforce beliefs, or cultural norms, or whatever they are, and where men made up all the rules we had to play by in order not to be murdered - yeah I would be afraid too. So I guess they aren't so "latent" fears anymore. So go try to psychoanalyze someone else. I don't need or want your input, bec. it seems like just a cover for insults.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

It doesn't really exist in Sunni Islam. Some are trying to introduce it as a norm in Sunni Islam. That is what scares me, western women are vulnerable to being taken advantage of when this is presented as Islamic, and converts are often all to accepting of whatever they are told is authentic. It's sad to say, but the exploitation and subjugation of women by Muslims believing that it is allowed in Islam is a continuing problem. I work for a bunch of former human rights attorneys who have ijaza and formed their practices in the ME. I have worked with them for almost 30 years, and so much of what I've seen isn't pretty and it certainly isn't Islam.

S and S misyar is muta...and thats not what they did. and yes its not in sunnah and jama'ah...

What is your understanding of what they did and how it is Islamic?

[funkyab 0]

OMG......

THE MENA FORUM AND ESPECIALLY THIS THREAD IS SOOOO EXHAUSTING!!!!!!!!!

I am very sympathetic to all of you that face this!!!

Edited April 19, 2008 by funkyab

[Nasturtium 500]

Marriage between Muslims and non-Muslims are not considered to be the ideal. However, Allah allows for them under certain cirsumstances. They are:

Q 5:5 That they be between chaste Muslims and chaste people of the Book (Christians and Jews)

Q 24:3 That they be between Muslim fornicators and non-believers (this is a specific class of non-Muslim)

Q 2:222 That Muslims avoid marriage with those who worship false Gods (some would include Christians among them)

Q 60:10-11 That we avoid marriage with those hostile to Islam and Muslims (quite reasonable)

Sorry, the evidence is not to be avoided so it can be pc. And, it's not a matter of intending to insult anyone; everyone knows what category they are in better than I do.

Aren't the two bolded ones contradictory?

I saved your post for last, jenn, because I knew it would come. And I was so glad it did. Mohammed also asked me how I can justify mixed marriage for Muslims if the ayat 2:221 and 60:10-11 forbid it.

The problem is that novices often generalize the specific in the text and specify the general in the text while plucking a single ayah away form surrounding ayah, the contextual history of its revelation, the linguistics involved, and how the Prophet personified the text.

If one merely isolated the two bolded sections you refer to, it would be easy to deduce that Christians are not allowed in marriage to Muslims. But, there is more to it than that.

We already know that not all Muslims will enter heaven. Allah is not as interested in what label you give yourself as He is in your acts. The Quran is the only sacred Abrahamic text that specifically allows for mixed marriages, and the only one that declares that there will be non-Muslims in heaven. It is careful to avoid blanketing entire groups of people as heretics, but bases one’s piety on character, values and behavior.

For example, in 2:221, the terminology used is definitive, and refers to practice rather than an entire group of people. The same is true for 60:10, and 5:5. There are characteristics involved that qualify an individual as halal or not, just as the directive that unchaste Muslims marry only other unchaste Muslims or an unbeliever. Islam teaches that we will be judged by Him as individuals, for our own acts and deeds, not for those of others around you.

The term “unbeliever” is commonly abused one in transliterations of the Arabic. It is not meant to refer to all non-Muslims, and the Arabic is more nuanced than the agenda behind the common use of that word. Therefore, there are those among non-Muslims who are devoted to God and in service to His Creation, who worship sincerely and keep to His laws, who avidly seek to please Him in Word and deed. They are not perfect, but are earnest. Allah says it matter not that they abide by the scriptures of the Torah or the Bible, their reward will be with Him.

Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. Q 5.69

In the Prophets inner circle, there were mixed faith couples where the wife was Muslim and the husband was not. He didn’t ask them to divorce as long as there was harmony in the union. That was also the case with his own daughter, Zaynab, who remained with her non-Muslim husband, until he became kafir by engaging in hostilities against the Muslims in the Battle of Badr (Q 60:10), and they were separated until his conversion.

If one keeps in mind that the premise of the Message is that all humans have free will to decie if and how they follow God, then individual practice gains more emphasis and importance, lessening the concept that whole groups are to be condemned because they do not call themselves Muslim. If there were no pious Christians or Jews, we would not be allowed to marry among them unless for the reason of fornication.

Allah actually intends for us to believe differently from each other as a test for how we learn to live together and to obey Him (Q 5:48 & 49:13). He expects us to protect the mutual God-given rights of all humanity, male and female:

O mankind! reverence your Guardian-Lord, who created you from a single person, created, of like nature, His mate, and from them twain scattered (like seeds) countless men and women;- reverence God, through whom ye demand your mutual (rights), and (reverence) the wombs (That bore you): for God ever watches over you. Q 4.1

We are created of like nature, one not superior one over the other due to nationality, ethnicity, race, or gender.

O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise (each other). Verily the most honored of you in the sight of God is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And God has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things). Q 49:13

Life is a test of faith. We are to learn how to live a God centered life, and to do it without animosity toward those whom God has chosen to adhere to faiths unlike our own.

And hold fast, all together, by the rope which God (stretches out for you), and be not divided among yourselves; and remember with gratitude God's favor on you; for ye were enemies and He joined your hearts in love, so that by His Grace, ye became brethren; and ye were on the brink of the pit of Fire, and He saved you from it. Thus doth God make His Signs clear to you: That ye may be guided. Q 3.103

To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what God hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to the e. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If God had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to God; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute; Q 5.48

Our Nabi married a variety of women, consulted the Jewish scriptures for guidance, took santuary from a Christian king for the safety of his ummah, sought the consul of strong females, and was not distracted by interfaith marriages between Muslim women and non-Muslim men. He depended upon the character of his allies, and the strength of their faith and values rather than their gender or labels to when seeking them out. This is the best example we follow when earning trust and forming unions.

I hope this is helpful to you.

Jenn got to the question before I did... since the two bolded parts clearly contradicted eachother... so I didn't ask. Thanks for that.

My husband actually agrees with you on the Orfi being illegal in Islam. His reasoning is that since it prevents a woman from obtaining her rights, it is unacceptable. Orfi was suggested to us by one of his friends and he strongly shot that down. Said something about not disrespecting me like that, then flipped into Arabic and started shouting and handwaving and I totally lost that conversation other than a few words here and there. Our wedding looked like it may not happen when my flight was delayed and we missed some important appointments (bloodwork, etc) due to my flight being delayed (stupid NWA). His POV was either we got legally married, or I came back and we tried again. It was either file K-1 with no marriage, Orfi or otherwise, or file K-3/Cr-1 with a legally registered marriage.

[Nasturtium 500]

Rocketta-- probably the biggest conflict we have is Shabbat. I don't want to do any work and he insists on cleaning every little thing every moment of the day. Other than that, our differences aren't cultural or relgious but rather personality traits We're pretty compatible.

[Rocketta 0]

Rocketta-- probably the biggest conflict we have is Shabbat. I don't want to do any work and he insists on cleaning every little thing every moment of the day. Other than that, our differences aren't cultural or relgious but rather personality traits We're pretty compatible.

honestly I hate to say it right now but I would love to deal with the little differences and find out what they are. I have to wait and try to predict what are issues would be.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

My husband actually agrees with you on the Orfi being illegal in Islam. His reasoning is that since it prevents a woman from obtaining her rights, it is unacceptable. Orfi was suggested to us by one of his friends and he strongly shot that down. Said something about not disrespecting me like that, then flipped into Arabic and started shouting and handwaving and I totally lost that conversation other than a few words here and there. Our wedding looked like it may not happen when my flight was delayed and we missed some important appointments (bloodwork, etc) due to my flight being delayed (stupid NWA). His POV was either we got legally married, or I came back and we tried again. It was either file K-1 with no marriage, Orfi or otherwise, or file K-3/Cr-1 with a legally registered marriage.

What I don't get is Muslims in a Muslim country not wanting to carry out their marriage by the laws of the Muslim country because it took too long, but willing to take care to take the time follow the laws of the non-Muslim country so they can get a visa.

It shows more respect for the laws of non-Muslims than the laws of fiqh, which they criticize me for not following when I married a Christian man. If you're so convinced that fiqh is right for me, why not follow it yourself?Humdillallah! At least my Christian man married me instead of trying to fake it! And my Muslim husband would never ask me to marry with any less than with my full God-given rights.

[Nasturtium 500]

honestly I hate to say it right now but I would love to deal with the little differences and find out what they are. I have to wait and try to predict what are issues would be.

Probably the best, but also scariest (in the beginning) thing I ever did was just go live with him for a two months while I was working. I went 5 times total, but that was the longest singlular time block, and the trip after we got married 6 months before. it was in that time that we learned a lot about each other's quirks... the little stuff that comes out when you've been together for over a week or two When he finally got here, we had a brief adjustment period after the inital euphoria.. probably 2 weeks or so of terseness, and then we were back on track and have been the same for the past 9? months. We're both rpetty predictable people though... and I really credit that trip as being a good thing for us learning about eachother's daily habits.

[S and S 12]

Rocketta-- probably the biggest conflict we have is Shabbat. I don't want to do any work and he insists on cleaning every little thing every moment of the day. Other than that, our differences aren't cultural or relgious but rather personality traits We're pretty compatible.

honestly I hate to say it right now but I would love to deal with the little differences and find out what they are. I have to wait and try to predict what are issues would be.

Ask your husband how he feels about you going out alone at night. My husband hates it if I do that even though I assure him it is fine and safe. Well, that worked until some weird guy followed me for an hour and I had to call the police to get rid of him. The sad part was my father was with me so I wasn't even alone at night. I had just picked him up from the airport. Now my husband is even more protective of me.

[Hanna&Mohamed 0]

Good im very glad everyone gave there point of view about theway mohamed and I did but let me say something I knew everything about it he told me everything. we decided to do that we couldnt get married at that time by the courts. They had just changed it when I got there. I have things in my contract that states i will get certain property and dowery and I also got alot of gold! Mohamed would have never not told me.

Now he will be here in 1 week and 3 days and I cant wait! yes we will have 2 different weddings here.Also we will have a big party in egypt next summer.

So just close this topic because i am sick of it!!!

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Good im very glad everyone gave there point of view about theway mohamed and I did but let me say something I knew everything about it he told me everything. we decided to do that we couldnt get married at that time by the courts. They had just changed it when I got there. I have things in my contract that states i will get certain property and dowery and I also got alot of gold! Mohamed would have never not told me.

Now he will be here in 1 week and 3 days and I cant wait! yes we will have 2 different weddings here.Also we will have a big party in egypt next summer.

So just close this topic because i am sick of it!!!

If your contract were valid and enforcable, you wouldn't have needed to do a K1.

I do wish you all the best together, and I don't think you are bad people, just both lacking in knowledge of Islamic law and sharia. It would be best if you stop declaring yourself Islamically married until you really are. It's a poor example for others and just plain incorrect.

[sara535 15]

I just wonder what are some the issues non-muslims have run into in their relationship with the Muslim MENA?

back to the original post....

personally I think its too hard to break out a relationship and all its issues into 'religion', 'culture', 'gender', whatever. People are just people and everyone is a product of all their collective experiences.

We've had issues in the 3 and a half years we've been married, adjustments and misunderstandings and all of that, but I just dont like to pin it on religion or culture. My husband comes from a completely different background than me, it couldnt get much more different but at the end of the day he is who he is and how he is and so am I and frankly I dont think his stubborn hardheadedness is a result of his muslim arab upbringing! just an example but I hope you can get what I am trying to say.

I had to adjust to shopping for halal meats and not using pork in my cooking (coming from a southern family its not that easy, we put bacon in EVERYTHING). I had to adjust to the household rhythm of 5 daily prayers. But these werent difficult or taxing or unpleasant changes, just normal accomodations that I think fall well within the range of the type of things that occur when any 2 people marry and merge their 2 lives into one. I cant even begin to list off all the things HE'S had to adjust to and compromise on

One thing I will say about my own personal experience: I know that my husband, as a Muslim, is MUCH happier and more content in general when he is living well in his faith and doing the things he should be such as never missing a prayer or a Friday mosque. Its simply not always possible in this country to live like he did there, he cant always leave work friday afternoon to attend nor can he always pray at the proper times. but as his wife I always try to do everything I can to encourage him to do what he needs to and not let the difficulties trip him up. At first it surprised him that as a non-muslim I was supporting him so actively in his spiritual life but it also makes him feel pretty special In fact, now that I am thinking about it, probably one of the biggest adjustments for him was to come from a society where the religion is completely embedded to one where he really has to make an effort. not that its a burden but back home when the prayer call echoes out over the city and everyone stops what they are doing to pray, its easy. He could throw on some shoes and walk half a block to the neighborhood mosque and join his brother and cousins and neighbors all together for the prayer. now we live in a small town with a tiny mosque thats not very close so its not like he is going to drop everything and drive over there 5 times a day.

anyway, the point is, I think as with everything, its different for every person and every couple. what bothers one may be a complete non issue for another. the best advice I can give is to be a good listener and just try to relax, keep a sense of humor, and see how it goes!

[Hanna&Mohamed 0]

Yes i am so glad we did a k1 visa like a lawyer told me . It took some time but not alot once he had his interview

he was issued the next day.

Have a wonderful day! Now i see someone else is starting a thread about it! Have fun!