Non-Muslims married to Muslim MENA

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

I speak here of marriage in general, not only of yours, but it does bring up important points.

My point is that for this discussion it does not matter why the judge will not register it. What matters is whether you can be married in the eyes of the political authority under which you live and that is responsible for enforcing laws--in this case Egypt and the US. The US, it seems, does not recognize it as a legally binding marriage. Does Egypt? What is the difference between it being recognized by the court and it being registered by the judge (who is, I persume, an agent of the court)? Could you take a marriage contract that was not registered and use it to obtain inheritence rights in the case of the death of a spouse? Is a child born of this marriage considered legitimate under Egyptian law? Is the father held to his parental responsibilities?

I really do encourage people to go back and read the threads where this was discussed and to try to do so without defensiveness, but with an attempt to understand what the arguements are. I think they are importnat and it is unfortunate that they are often burried under shouting, name calling and chest pounding.

The Egyptian government routinely fails to protect the rights of women in matters and fails to enforce the responsibilities of men (i.e. - support). Men can divorce their wives without even going through a court process. Women who seek divorce without their husband's consent give up all their rights. These issues raise questions about registered marriages as well.

Egypt gives no rights to Christians for inheritance from Muslim spouses, and this is something else to be considered.

That's a very valid point.

[sarahaziz 0]

I understand, if there is a such new thread it'd be interesting to read. This is my last post on this subject since it's off topic but I really didn't want to start a new post. I think we are not on the same track because I am referring biblically. Correct me if I'm wrong but I see only Years from 1800-1900's and there after. Muslims Christians Jews yes we were and still are all Brothers/Sisters. I am Christian and my views are based on the bible I think that's why we are departing from views. Quick note of my thoughts - Abraham 2 sons Ishmael (muslim) Isaac (Jew) From Abraham's Land of Canaan given by God to Isaac to his son Jacob which was Israel. Palestine wasn't known at that time. So Land of Canaan aka Promised Land= Given to Israel God defines the borders but I nor any other in this life can Compare to God's wisdom and works. I'm not trying to conform you into my view but I am informing you what I strictly believe.

That is not a Biblically-based view. A Biblically based view would be that Abraham had 2 sons-- Ishmael and Isaac. Isaac came to know the G-d of his father, and Ishmael did not. There are no Muslims in the Bible. The "promised land" is a concept promised to Abraham but not given to him-- it was a concept that was carried out through Moses, although Moses only viewed it and was not allowed to enter it. Joshua was that leader. Ishmael did not inherit, but the blessing was given to Isaac. Ishmael had 12 sons and died at 137 and lived in the desert and was a strong man.. but little is really said about him. He is not listed as being the father of the Arabs, although just by default he would have some involvement in some of the lineages around the area. He would not be the sole father of the Arabs if you were to take a Biblical point of view of who the people are, and likely would have little to no involvement with the lineages of the Arabian penninsula unless there was some kind of major post-biblical migration.

I hope you don't take anything to offense, but like I stated earlier I don't believe anything from anyones explanations unless it's directly from Quran, Bible, Torah. For me to explain anything further would take hours and hours.

Edited April 18, 2008 by sarahaziz

[Nasturtium 500]

I hope you don't take anything to offense, but like I stated earlier I don't believe anything from anyones explanations unless it's directly from Quran, Bible, Torah. For me to explain anything further would take hours and hours.

I'm not offended at all But show where in the Bible there are Muslims. If you will not take into account anyone's explanations without proof, then you should be holding yourself to the same standard. My proof would be for you to read the Bible.... Genesis, specifically, as you are claiming Ishmael was called Muslim in the Bible: Genesis 16:2- Genesis 25:17. Ishmael may be called Muslim by Muslims and in the Qu'ran, but it is not in the Bible.

Again, just so you know,the Torah is the first 5 books of the bible. It is not different between the christian bible and the Jewish Torah, the Tanakh (Torah, writings, and prophets) is the entirety of the Old Testament. In christian bibles they chose to reorder the writings and prophets to try a more chronological approach as well as entitle the minor prophets in their own sections. this is an ordering issue.

The Qu'ran is a very different book. Many of the characters are the same and some of the events are the same, but not all and it does not read the same way, and there are additions and subtractions. I really suggest you read them side by side before saying they are the same.

ETA: I hope I am not offending you, Sarah, but i am merely trying to point out the contradictions in your statements in relation to the books. As a Christian, you should of course be familiar with the Bible

Edited April 18, 2008 by julianna

[sarahaziz 0]

I hope you don't take anything to offense, but like I stated earlier I don't believe anything from anyones explanations unless it's directly from Quran, Bible, Torah. For me to explain anything further would take hours and hours.

I'm not offended at all But show where in the Bible there are Muslims. If you will not take into account anyone's explanations without proof, then you should be holding yourself to the same standard. My proof would be for you to read the Bible.... Genesis, specifically, as you are claiming Ishmael was called Muslim in the Bible: Genesis 16:2- Genesis 25:17. Ishmael may be called Muslim by Muslims and in the Qu'ran, but it is not in the Bible.

Again, just so you know,the Torah is the first 5 books of the bible. It is not different between the christian bible and the Jewish Torah, the Tanakh (Torah, writings, and prophets) is the entirety of the Old Testament. In christian bibles they chose to reorder the writings and prophets to try a more chronological approach as well as entitle the minor prophets in their own sections. this is an ordering issue.

The Qu'ran is a very different book. Many of the characters are the same and some of teh events are the same, but not all and it does not read the same way, and there are additions and subtractions. I really suggest you read them side by side before saying they are the same.

I'm so hard headed in religion and beliefs! I will continue to compare the two when I get a chance ! So many takes on Religion it makes me nuts.

Edited April 18, 2008 by sarahaziz

[brnidokiegurl 0]

no he can call name but we as muslims arab cant lol

as u see i put no quote in my comment i ment for both

[Sofiyya 1,687]

I won't even go into the religious discussion, since I am far from versed in it. I do have my ideas and opinions of what is right and wrong.

I can see that getting married in Egypt is not an easy task. On the other hand, if these marriages that are not legally recoginized are not accepted by Islam then trying to justify why you married in that manor is basically justifying having sex, nothing more nothing less. Since I don't know much about Islam I really can't say for sure.

Don't get me wrong, anyone can do what they want, I don't have a problem with that, and if that is your choice then it really is none of my business, nor will I try to put your down for your choices. To each his own, I am just voicing my opinion, that is all.

Like I said, I am not well versed in Islam, but I have known both Sunni and Shiite men. My husband, who is Sunni, does not believe in this kind of marriage. The men I know that are Shiite have been married in this fashion (in the state I live in). One of these men confided in me and told me that it isn't a real marriage, but it is an agreement with God to have sex with a friend, nothing more nothing less. He told me that men here are doing these marriages because the women here don't understand it and will take care of all of their needs (cooking, cleaning, money, etc) without the real committment. Their ultimate goal was to eventually go back to their country and find a "woman that derserves them" (his words). My friend married one of these men in this fashion. She told me that with this marriage there is a time frame for the life of the marriage. In her case it was 2 years. Weird to me but whatever. He used her for a place to live, washing cooking, money while he went out with many many other women. Now he left her for another woman. He has the same type marriage with this new woman, and 3 kids with her as well (2 of them were born while he was still with my friend).

Isn't this a little screwed up? I just can't see the validity of a marriage like this. If this is the acceptable manner of this type of marriage I will pass.

Sorry if this offends anyone, I really don't judge any of your choices, its just my view.

Melinda and mohammed are not really married. They are not married in the "eyes of Allah" nor by Egyptian law. They are only married in their own minds. The thing that amuses me is their defense of doing sloppy seconds by signing a legally ambiguos contract in a lawyer's office, not at a masjid, and then claiming it to be Islamic. He will come here, and follow non-Muslim law again, by really marrying here, while ignoring the laws of marriage in Egypt, all because it was inconvenient to do so.

Reminds me of the argument that illegals should be able to come here illegally because the government makes it difficult to do so legally. But, Muslims are required to follow the laws of the land they are in. Muslim men importing western women to "marry" teach them the first lesson, ignore Muslim laws so we can have sex, but I will follow your secular law so I can get a visa. Not kosher.

I grew up in Agadir, a tourist town, and where law office marriages are often called "tourist marriages" because Muslim men there will enter into them in order to have sex, then they are not binding in law because they are not registered, therefore, not recognized, and everyone goes on their way. It's not exactly like muta, because muta is defensible by Shite fiqh. This practice of paper marriage is not defensible in Sunni law. Since they are not married, there is no inheritance, no other protection that you would have in a valid Islamic marriage. A contract, offer, acceptance and witnesses is not alll there is to an Islamic marriage. That is a fantasy.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

I just want to say that what Bridget is saying is correct regarding the embassy. They are the reason why lots of couples were not allowed to legalize and register their marriages. I know this firsthand, done been there and tried it.

So, if what is required in Islam inconveniences you, just forget about it. No marriages were entered into if they were not legalized.

I just sat here and read 17 pages of debates on the way people live their life and it makes me ill to my stomach to see the judgement passed onto others. This is my first post that I have written to where I am almost ashamed to have joined this site. I came here for support and advice and not to be judged. I personally did not join into this conversation because of this reason until now.

Please don't read what you cannot handle. That is my best advice to you.

I am not thoroughly educated on Islam to comment but I do take offense when people start slandering others, especially when there is a child involved. I would think that it should be up to Allah to judge if a sin has been committed. Posts such as some of these are so offensive that a non-believer could be so turned off and never want to have anything to do with religion. What a shame that would be!

Allah decides if you will be Muslim or not, so I do not concern myself with whether people are turned off or not by words of disagreement. The Prophet said that disagreement is a blessing on the ummah. There is no strength in keeping controversy in the shadows. There is also no virtue in applying political correctness to Islam. We are directed to enjoin the good and reject the wrong. In Islam, if you let anyone say or do anything about faith practices and allow others to be mislead, you share their burden on the Day of Judgement.

The Quran mentions doing justice more than 50 times. We are also called upon to do justice and demand justice whenever we see an injustice. Allowing my brothers and sisters in Islam to go unchallenged when they seek to mislead is a sin. I chose not to accept the sin so that I can be popular, I challenge the sin. It is not a common occurance for people to stand up for their beliefs in the face of ridicule, but I can and will do so.

Edited April 19, 2008 by Virtual wife

[Sofiyya 1,687]

First , I am asthmatic and I am pregnant but I have had enough of this.

First,

I am muslim and in the eyes of most muslims including Imams,both these couples are married. Intention is 90 percent of everything in Islam.When you pray you pray with intention. You clean your heart and you make your intentions known to Allah.If you are legally right about things but have horrible intentions, God knows this.

This is an empty claim. You have proven time and time again to know nothing about Muslims and Islam, and spend most of your time showing that lack of familiarity. I am not the only Muslim on this board that has questioned their claims to be married, so I am certainly not alone, and the only intentions involved is to warn women ignorant of the tenets of the faith to avoid this spiritual and legal limbo that you are defending.

I believe that no muslim scholar ,nor Imam would abuse these young couples like VW has . I do believe that she herself would be an object of scorn,not only marrying outside of Islam but then making partners with Allah (shirk) and deeming herself to be some kind of Islamic scholar,debating with people born in MENA countries who can walk down the street to the largest Islamic Universitites and think tanks in the world.

You have a thing about where someone is born making them superior or inferior Muslims. That is a fantasy of yours that makes no sense and is not binding on anyone else. Where a person is born is not a choice they make, but how intent thsy are on understanding their faith is.

I notice that when you abuse and slander me, you do not apply your standards of honor, but rather stay at the low level you are unable to escape. You are famous for abusing Muslims, Islam and Arabs on this board. For you, reading this must be like looking in the mirror and not liking what you see. Even so, where there is drama and an opportunity to shower scorn, we can depend on you to appear and do just that, using your fetus as a common excuse.

She is NOT representative of most of the people here and their opinions. Over the years she has gotten into debates with other NATIVE BORN arabs about the Arabic language,Islam and tons of other things. Many of us are also well traveled and well read as well..She has deemed herself some kind of expert on all things arab when she is a 3rd generation arab living in the USA with over a 2 year journey through uscis (shes been married for over 2 years to someone much younger than herself...my guess is the age difference is over 20 years at least)

You are one of the least representative Muslims I have ever met, to the point where I forget you are Muslim. I am a Native born Arab, wahrania, but so what? You have a problem with me because I am Arab, I am Muslim, and you are a wanna be nobody. At least I don't come on here regularly to announce doubts about my man, like you do. The basis upon which you demean me - my birthplace, that my father born in the US, that I stand up for Islam, that my husband is younger, are petty and definitely representative of your mindset.

I am fed up with the generalising and self rightous snotty rantings of people like her. There are several young couples with babies coming out of Egypt with babies and all faced the paperwork problem. We are here to be friends to each other not self rightous wild haired old nasty hags to these young people....Im over it and I am sorry if i offend anyone but enough is enough.

I'm fed up with phonies like you ranting about everything under the sun. The only reason why you don't like it when I have a say is because I'm mpmentarily taking the spotlight off of your miserable threads, whining and crying about your latest mental breakdown and lack of confidence in the choices you make. You gotta share the board sometimes.

Edited April 19, 2008 by Virtual wife

[brnidokiegurl 0]

wow just notice this jab

my guess is the age difference is over 20 years at least)

and this has to do what with the price of tea in china and you dont have to guess its a known fact as is mine also

[Aymsgirl 0]

Even so, where there is drama and an opportunity to shower scorn, we can depend on you to appear and do just that, using your fetus as a common excuse.

Virual Wife...its time to stop. The line you wrote above is enough, you need to read how you are coming off to others. Whether you were trying earlier to be helpful and educate this comment is not becoming for you. I'm sure you do not care but please do not bring her unborn child into this. It just isn't right to attack somebody in this way at all.

[Hanna&Mohamed 0]

I want to tell you something virtual wife! i will tell you dont say anything again about my life again. When u talk about any ones baby u have mental problems. I cant believe what you said about wahranias' baby. What is ur problem! You say you are a muslim you might be but you dont show it at all lately.You are being such a cold-hearted person. I really feel sorry for your husband because if you act this way you will never stay married! I pray you do. I know I will have a wonderful life with Mohamed ! We are so happy together and have a beautiful son together! I think its time to stop this !!!

This is getting to much !!!!

[Sofiyya 1,687]

To this non-Muslim, the biggest problem with Islam as practiced today is the watering down of what is an intellectually rigorous religion and the lack of personal responsibility that accompanies this.

This is definitely a problem on this board, and the pc attitude of live-and-let-live-who-are-you-to-judge? exaserbates it.

Had I dedicted my life to studying my own religion and then watched it become the sloppy recitation of either husbands or online "scholars" that is often presented here (and, in my exererience, elsewhere as well), I would be raging mad and I would stand up to it. The fact remains that no one here except VW has explained their own beliefs with any kind of Quranic backing nor with their own reasoning. Agree or disagree, but do so with some original thought and without resorting to personal attacks. Or, we should just move on as the discussion will lead no where.

VW can speak quite well for herself, but I have read these threads over and over and I see it totally differently. She is not attacking anyone for getting married in whatever way they did. She is contesting the insistance that all that is required for a marriage to be Islamic is for it to take place in a mosque with two witnesses. She is insiting on the legal protections required and is frustrated that women are being talked out of these protections. She has outlined over and over what is required for an Islamic marriage and why. No one ever refutes this in an intelligent way. Saying it is hard, even impossible, to get married in Egypt does nothing to refute what she claims is required for a marriage to be Islamic. If people disagree they are welcome to ignore her, not care what she says. Or they can explain why they believe otherwise. But, that is not what happens. Instead, we get cut and paste and personal attacks. What is a shame to me is that there can be no intelligent debate or discussion.

If they had married in a mosque, that would be taken into consideration, but that is not even the case. As far as the debate goes, even desiring critical thinking and original thought in a debate such as this is considered to be rude and snotty, as evidenced by the common response received when challenging intellectually lazy attempts to defend wrong doing.

There is little depth or nuance involved in the popular presentation of website cut and pastes, and the name-calling that follows. I take no pride in trying to present a case among the intellectually lazy and defensive, yet I do it because it must be done in defense of the faith. Islamic theology wasn't developed over the kitchen table or in pillow talk sessions. It take more than the ability to google to support one's position in a deabte about the foundations of the faith. Sometimes I think that Islam is not take as seriously as other faiths in that it is considered to be a complement to the beliefs of the poster rather than a faith with limits, disciplines and expectations. For too many, Islam is whatever is in the hearts. That it is so often presented as a free-for-all is indeed frustrating to those who are not insta-scholars, but who take learning it thoroughly to be a serious undertaking and an obligation to God.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

I want to tell you something virtual wife! i will tell you dont say anything again about my life again. When u talk about any ones baby u have mental problems. I cant believe what you said about wahranias' baby. What is ur problem! You say you are a muslim you might be but you dont show it at all lately.You are being such a cold-hearted person. I really feel sorry for your husband because if you act this way you will never stay married! I pray you do. I know I will have a wonderful life with Mohamed ! We are so happy together and have a beautiful son together! I think its time to stop this !!!

This is getting to much !!!!

Wahrania blames her irrationality on being pregnant. I commented on that habit. Making an obervation about something she herself claims doesn't make me mentally ill. The only problem here is your hyperbole.

I have been married for more than three years. You are not yet married. Please, hurry and get married so we can congratulate you on your overdue but happy occasion!

[Sofiyya 1,687]

You are comfortable with the way you were married and you do not have to defend it to me. But, I think the question with these "Islamic" marriages is whether the contract is enforcable. If the judge will not register it (for whatever reason--we can all agree that he should, but if he will not...) then how is the contract enforced? Because if the contract cannot be enforced then her rights are not protected. And, I do not fault anyone for pointing that out to people. Women should know their rights--for themselves and their children--and if they choose to overlook them, they should do so with knowledge of what it means.

There is a difference between saying "this is alright with me" and "this is alright according to Islam." Those two approaches require very different justifications and I think they are often confused in discussion here.

You have point your finger on what so many refuse to acknowledge. By insisting that signing an untested contract in a lawyer's office represents what is halal in Islam, melinda, mohammed and their supporters oblige an entire ummah to their claims, requiring a challenge to it's validity.

If they had simply admitted that their entry into a paper marriage was merely a ploy to avoid having to wait out a bureaucratic impediment to a valid marriage before they were intimate with each other, that would not have obligated the entire ummah because Islam would not be an element of their claim to legitimacy.

I said before, have your rolls in the hay before marriage, if you want. Your burdens are yours alone, but don't clock your desires in Islam because that requires daleel, and creates a burden on all other Muslims to speak up or remain silent.

Edited April 19, 2008 by Virtual wife

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Ipaula, before I forget, let me please wish you a wonderful Passover. Pesach!

Edited April 19, 2008 by Virtual wife