Non-Muslims married to Muslim MENA

[SaadBell 0]

COSTELLO: Jeff, this case has gotten so much international attention. I think I've read about it in just about every American women's magazine. Is this going to help her case, this intense international attention?

KOINANGE: Carol, you won't believe the amount of publicity this case has generated. Who knew Amina Lawal about a year ago, let alone Nigeria? Not the whole world. Now it's on just about everyone's lips, just as you say. And that has helped a lot. People now, when they hear Amina Lawal, they say, 'Oh, the stoning case. How could such a thing happen in this day and age? It is so barbaric.' So many comments we hear on a day-to-day basis because of the pressure from human rights groups, NGOs [non-governmental organizations], you know, people in various positions of power. And that has certainly helped a lot. And {the appeal} will determine whether this case will go on or whether she will win.

As you recall, about two years ago another woman was sentenced to death by stoning in the northern state of Sokuto. She was released because of international pressure.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

I'm back, and ready to rip a few new ones.

I think this is a spurious argument. Who is the (earthly) judge of whether someone is practicing their religion?

And what I said still holds true. Why single out the non-Muslims? The same could again be applied to a Muslim not practicing their religion if we are going to judge such.

Non-muslims are singled out because the question was regarding Muslims and non-Muslims in marriage. Yes, the same applies to Muslims.

The earthly judge of whether someone is following their religion or not would have to do with whatever they hold to be the word of G-d.

And regardless of the original topic, it still comes across as a dig to interject that we can assume that many marriages between Muslims and non-Muslims are based on fornication, at least from my perspective. Is such an interjection helpful in anyway? Offer any support to the question posed in the thread?

It's obviously a dig. But whatever, honestly. Oooh, I'm a fornicator. Big whoop. And I couldn't really care less about what someone who uses the term fornicator as an insult has to say about it.

If you are an admitted fornicator, what makes what I said a dig, anyway? It's a dig only if you attribute your own self-serving motivations to me, plz. The word fornicator is used in the Quran. I didn't make it up from whole cloth.

now virtual wife

DO YOU NEED ANY MORE EVIDENCE FROM QURAN AND SUNNAH TO KNOW THAT MUSLIM WOMEN CANT MARRY MUSLIM MEN IT IS HARAAAAAAAM

it doesnot mean that you were married to non muslim man that it is halal and allowed to marry non muslim men

you should ask for forgivness sister

and please dont spread those wrong information about islam again

Allah guide us all to his striaght path Ameen

Actually, I wish you had given us evidence form the Quran or Sunnah. As it is, you have provided NO evidence from the sharia that directs Muslim women to marry only Muslim men. I doubt seriously that you have any understanding about what you have posted from websites; at least 2 of your cut and pastes advocate that there is no evidence against interfaith marriage for Muslim women, and most of it is from fiqh, which includes cultural sources, not sharia.

It is no challenge for me to debate with people who post from websites because they have no context or education in the faith beyond how their tribe has distorted the faith. I have explained the difference between fiqh and sharia. If you apply the difference, you would not be so confrontational toward me. Since the source of the "prohibition" is mortal, not divine, it is not haram for a Muslim women to marry an ahl al kitab man, it is makruh, as is marriage to non-Muslim women in the west.

That being said, if my marriage wasn't halal, then your relationship is not a marriage in Islam, and definitely not halal. You can't pick and choose what laws and sources you want to adhere to someone else when you refuse to apply the same standards and laws to yourself.

I am incredulous that Muslim men get all exorcised about who and how Muslim women marry, and at the same time, they follow their desires to bed and impregnant women outside of a valid marriage while making all kinds of excuses for doing so. There is no religious marriage in Islam without protection and enforcement. It is haram to make up Islam to suit yourself.

Claim as you may that you are religiously married; if you have to file for a K1, you are not, and no excuse about how hard it is to marry for real in Egypt makes for a justification for fornication and pregnancy without that protection. You may want to justify it, but unlike marriage between Muslim women and men of the Book, the Quran is clear about what is required for a valid marriage. People should just admit they did urfi and repent. Allah isn't interested in your excuses, only in your obedience to Him.

[desert_fox 32]

I have fornicated many many times, and hope to do it again. Does this mean that I will be stoned, or does it only apply to women??? like...yanno...double standards.

[Ban Hammer 13,342]

mop and bucket crew, we need a cleanup on aisle mohamed N melinda.

and no, ds, go forth and fornicate some more.

Edited April 18, 2008 by charlesandnessa

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Thank God for somebody Educated in Islam is on the boards. It is extremely evident when I read your posts they make Islam - make sense rather than read hypocritical claims from people not so stable in their Islamic religion statements. As a christian I agree with some of Islam but not all. I still respect Islam and I hope people don't continue to spread false accusations of the religion just because it "sounds pretty good".

Unfortunately, too many Muslims do not take the time to learn the faith properly. They do not understand that there are distinctions and distortions that have been incorporated into practice that are intended to maintain a pre-Islamic status quo rather than follow Allah's word.

There is no way around the fact that in order to limit the God-given rights of Muslim women in the process of broadening and adding to the "rights" of Muslim men, one has had to suspend rationality - and Islam is quite rational - ignore parts of the sharia that are inconvenient, and elevate human reasoning above the sacred texts. The result has been a glorification of maleness as the normative and a suppression of the feminine as the "other". Thus, it is impossible to hide the chauvinism and hypocrisy required to explain why Muslim women are proposed to be limited in marriage to Muslim men.

They are fallible and require protection from all harm;

Their will is weak and they are easily diverted away from Islam;

They must be lead by a Muslim man in order to fully practice their faith;

Children respond to the influence of the father and will stay Muslim because of his leadership.

Any woman, Muslim or not, is elevated by her marriage to a Muslim man.

Any woman, not married to a Muslim man, is lowered in status by her association with a non-Muslim man.

This is the basic thread thru which the "prohibition" is supported. However, I dare anyone to find any if this in the Quran or the history of the early ummah, but you won't because it is not there. It exists only in the self-serving imaginations of Muslim men who rewrite the Word of God and their sychophants.

Notice that there are no cut and pastes from websites in this post. I don't need 'em.

Edited April 18, 2008 by Virtual wife

[Zee Bee 61]

Virtual wife, I could not have said it better myself

[Jenn! 918]

If you are an admitted fornicator, what makes what I said a dig, anyway? It's a dig only if you attribute your own self-serving motivations to me, plz. The word fornicator is used in the Quran. I didn't make it up from whole cloth.

Huh? Sorry, I don't think we are on the same page at all.

Honestly, I really don't care. As I said, I don't see "fornicator" as an insult personally, though I'm sure many people do. It wasn't the use of the word anyway, it was saying that the marriage was due to fornication. I'm not sure I even really understand what that means in any case.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Seriously? Again, this is someone else's argument (although giving a source would help us understand exactly who is making it). And, it is a rather strange one. Do you agree with it? Why? Why not? Does it make sense to you that there are sections of the Quran missing/lost? How do we know? How do we decide what we can add to the Quran? How valid are the rather enormous changes made in [brackets]? Are they the word of Allah? What else is missing/lost from the Quran?

there is nothing missing in Quran. it is Allah words and no one can add or remove any thing from it

it is Allah words and Allah will protect it forever

I don't think you understand the the "evidence" you are cutting and pasting. And, thus, I do not think it is worth continuing this.

-

If there is nothing missing in the Quran, why do you rely on moral additions to explain what is in the Quran?

My husband and I have actually discussed the differences in the mans right verses the womens rights in the past. He had similar views that the men has more rights than women, but I am a persistent girl and kept asking what the Quran says. Its interesting how he is starting to see my points more and more, as long as I base my argument on the Quran. I think he was so swayed by the culture that he didn't give it as much thought until I pointed things out.

The cultural effect of Arab tribalism and its claim on being the only true Islam has had an insidious influence across the ummah; so much so that non-Arab Muslims are seen as less legitimate in Islam than those from the ME. Note how many of the attacks on my contributions are based on how "Arab" I am or not. I am assumed to be westernized because I am a woman who is not easily silenced or cowed by the assumed to be superior ME Islamic groupthink.

Inferring that one is "westernized" is shorthand for illegitimacy and invalidity because the thinking is not rooted in Arab culturalism. That is not Islam, this is vanity to assume that there are degrees in Arabness that are based in tribalism, and that those degrees of Arabness rank one on a scale of Islamic legitimacy or invalidity inherent in how high or low you rank on the Arabness scale.

BS

Muslims need to become more educated in Islam and less dependent on how they have used the faith to excuse their flaws and inability to practice in a way that has no nationality, regionalism, ethnic or gender superiority. Then, they will be on the Straight Path and the Middle Way.

Still no cut and paste . . .

[Sofiyya 1,687]

If you are an admitted fornicator, what makes what I said a dig, anyway? It's a dig only if you attribute your own self-serving motivations to me, plz. The word fornicator is used in the Quran. I didn't make it up from whole cloth.

Huh? Sorry, I don't think we are on the same page at all.

Honestly, I really don't care. As I said, I don't see "fornicator" as an insult personally, though I'm sure many people do. It wasn't the use of the word anyway, it was saying that the marriage was due to fornication. I'm not sure I even really understand what that means in any case.

Marriage between Muslims and non-Muslims are not considered to be the ideal. However, Allah allows for them under certain cirsumstances. They are:

Q 5:5 That they be between chaste Muslims and chaste people of the Book (Christians and Jews)

Q 24:3 That they be between Muslim fornicators and non-believers (this is a specific class of non-Muslim)

Q 2:222 That Muslims avoid marriage with those who worship false Gods (some would include Christians among them)

Q 60:10-11 That we avoid marriage with those hostile to Islam and Muslims (quite reasonable)

Sorry, the evidence is not to be avoided so it can be pc. And, it's not a matter of intending to insult anyone; everyone knows what category they are in better than I do.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

So much for me just reading the forums as I typically do. I have to ask regarding the fornification and Islam Is it not true that Islam forbids premarital sex? Is that why there's so many fiance visas in MENA that have children together? Not that I care, because I don't. I just find it interesting.

sure Islam forbids premarital sex . men arenot allowed to touch thier faince just after marriage.

but u know there is something called islamic marriage it is in Allah eyes . it occure by islamic way it require 2 wittness and it should be writen and there is alot memebers here doing it . but it isnot certfied by court or judge but it acceptable by islam

Whose Islam finds this practice to be acceptable? Does every Muslim have their own Islam now? This is not acceptable in Islam nor it would be legal in your own Muslim country where most scholars oppose it. It's seriously weird to me that Muslims who are willing to follow the laws of a non-Muslim country to the letter - fill out forms, pay fees, go to interviews, marry legally once here - are so unwilling to follow the laws developed as Islamic by the Muslims of the Muslim country they live in. They have more respect for non-Muslim laws than Islamic laws.

Nothing in "Allah's eyes" allows for a lack of protection or enforcement of a marriage contract. Egypt requires registration of such contracts to make them valid and enforcable. Why do Muslims make it seem as if Islam doesn't set any standards at all when it comes to its familial institutions, but they make sure the laws of a secular country are closely followed? I don't get this? It's not something to be proud of or to encourage in the practice of others here. Some Muslim men should be ashamed of themseleves they way they do these western women like this.

Edited April 18, 2008 by Virtual wife

[catknit 144]

Thank you Virtual Wife - I feel a little vindicated, finally.

As I stated previously Im not Muslim or for that matter a scholar [of anything ] but I did spend a lot of time in my first relationship studying, reading, and searching for clarity about Islam. And I would sit there and read one thing, read a jurists/scholars take on it and think - huh I kinda get how they may have gotten to that conclusion but I don't get that conclusion out of it personally - some would seem so off the mark or illogical.

According to the ex, which ever interpretation fit his needs that day [or for his side of any argument] it was the one that held the truth at that given moment.

Additionally, he was a huge proponent of Arabs being, by birth right, somehow better Muslims. Any non-Arab Muslim could never be considered for his sisters' hand in marriage - it didn't matter how devout they were, what a great job they had, what a good family they came from - it wasn't to be because they were not Arab. And I would say to the ex, whose occasional argument as to why I should convert was that Islam is such a welcoming faith-open to all-there is no race in Islam-we are all brothers and sisters; then why can't these good Muslim men marry your sisters. His response, well they aren't Arab, that's why. If I pushed it, the response would be "Don't lecture me about my own religion - you don't know and have no right to question it!!!".

Of course I had the added fun of a FIL who said there was no way I'd ever learn Arabic because there isn't a drop of Arab blood in me - he said this while flipping thru the couple of Arabic work books I had been slaving over for a few weeks trying to learn just basic vocabulary and simple grammar. Was it hard? Heck yeah. But I learned some, enough to sit thru family dinners and know roughly what was being discussed, to answer simple questions/commands, and I made sure thru google I knew profanity [their dinners were much more colorful than I originally thought ].

Because I was pretty isolated in my relationship and didn't have any friends in the same situation, I thought what I was reading and thinking hedged on crazy. The ex and his family were the only exposure I had to real life practicing Muslims and I couldn't get where they were coming from - I'd read one thing and be told something different.

My SO now is trying to deprogram me - that's at least the best way to explain it. I can't tell you how many times I've said to him "But isn't that haram????" and he just laughs no. He's taking things slowly and without the constant badgering to convert or yelling about what the "truth" really is.

Reading thru your posts, Virtual Wife, is like a breakthrough in clarity about a lot of these matters to me. Thanks!!!

[Sofiyya 1,687]

I'm sorry you had all of that confusion foisted on you. Sadly, there are few non-Muslims who know how to cut thru the BS they hear about Islam. It's part of that dirty laundry we're not supposed to talk about in public. I'm glad I could be of any help to you.

[Hanna&Mohamed 0]

You can say what ever you want to say but I have always been taught and in Egypt was told that a muslim women is not suppose to marry out of faith! Thats why muslim brothers sometimes kill there sister.Anyone can do it but u think the family will approve !!!Never!!! Islam does approve of different religion for the men.

For Mohammed and I when we married I converted to Islam. We married by contract which is more important by religion to us then marry in court.Like people that just go and be with there men with no kind of marraige at all. I would have never gotten pregnant with our prince if I wasnt married by religion because I would have never been with mohamed that way until we were married. Also i will say people need to watch what they say about peoples' children !! Mohamed im sure will finish this tommorow !! Especially when people make comments about me and his child!!!!

[~*Dorothy*~ 2]

It's been rather interesting reading...hmmmmm

[HLM 1]

As an arab i am ashamed to see muslim arabs thinking they re better muslims than non arab muslims!! I ve seen far more better devout non arab muslims than arab muslims!!! My husband is a better muslim than a lot of egyptian muslims here!! where they are excellent at labeling themselves and leaving the practice behind! A muslim is a brother/sister of another muslim ... NO MATTER WHERE HE/SHE IS FROM. I know when my family knew i was getting married to a non EGYPTIAN let alone non arab lol they raised hell!! its all about stupid culture which i never follow al hamdulillah.

Concerning the stoning of fornicators part ..... i just want to say the four witnesses have to see the fornicators -BOTH- with their own EYES!!! and since we live in a time where truthfulness is a rare thing and ppl are becoming more hypocrytical everyday ..... i would say it shudnt be concidered. Now Iran is not really the best example to judge Islam with! just becoz they say "oh we re doing what Allah commanded us" doesnt mean they re right! as u ve seen the woman was innocent and at that point if they re really that religious then the husband and those who lied they ve seen her fornicate should receieve 8O lashes!...... I know a lot of cases has happened around the Islamic countries....Men should get punished too and its clear in the verse. Those who oppose and see it as cruel and inhumane... u re intitled to believe what u want and i respect u no matter who u r

I think no one can force anyone to believe what they dont want. I believe if we disagree on something we shud post what we think in a simple easy-to-understand way ... and let them judge by themselves... rather than pushing what we think on them or being judgemental of what the other person believes!

Finally I want to say... Islam is perfect; muslims are not! There are so many sources to find the truth... Do ur OWN research and find out what u want to find but always make sure its a trusted source becoz there are those misleading ones.