Universal Health Care

[Peikko 1,575]

It is obvious that a Universal Health care system can work - there are plenty of examples world wide that prove it that they can and they do and in the best cases, extremely efficiently - the problem appears to be that people who appose it feel that the American government is incapable of creating and running an efficient health care system. If that is true, then the goverment requires reform.

Just out of interest, how come the goverment are able to run an efficient armed forces? Or is it the opinion that the goverment can't do squat that the armed forces should also be privatised?

Edited April 16, 2008 by Purple_Hibiscus

[Marilyn. 340]

in Canada we didn't have to worry about any paperwork.. but I am not saying that we have to do it like Canada does.. but something needs to be done...

[GaryC 7]

It is obvious that a Universal Health care system can work - there are plenty of examples world wide that prove it that they can and they do and in the best cases, extremely efficiently - the problem appears to be that people who appose it feel that the American government is incapable of creating and running an efficient health care system. If that is true, then the goverment requires reform.

Just out of interest, how come the goverment are able to run an efficient armed forces? Or is it the opinion that the goverment can't do squat that the armed forces should also be privatised?

Yes PH, the government needs reform.

As far as the military goes, it's in the best interest of the government to have a good military. That is why it is better at it. But massive waste still occures in this area. You remember $500 toilet seats and $200 hammers? Military contracts handed out as political favors? It's all over the government. However the military is one of the things that is spelled out in the constitution that the federal government is responsable for. That can never be privitized. It does however, needs to be reformend.

[Ban Hammer 13,651]

It is obvious that a Universal Health care system can work - there are plenty of examples world wide that prove it that they can and they do and in the best cases, extremely efficiently - the problem appears to be that people who appose it feel that the American government is incapable of creating and running an efficient health care system. If that is true, then the goverment requires reform.

because you say so?

Just out of interest, how come the goverment are able to run an efficient armed forces? Or is it the opinion that the goverment can't do squat that the armed forces should also be privatised?

where did you get the idea that the armed forces are efficient? ever heard of $600 hammers?

[GaryC 7]

It is obvious that a Universal Health care system can work - there are plenty of examples world wide that prove it that they can and they do and in the best cases, extremely efficiently - the problem appears to be that people who appose it feel that the American government is incapable of creating and running an efficient health care system. If that is true, then the goverment requires reform.

because you say so?

Just out of interest, how come the goverment are able to run an efficient armed forces? Or is it the opinion that the goverment can't do squat that the armed forces should also be privatised?

where did you get the idea that the armed forces are efficient? ever heard of $600 hammers?

I beat you to that point Charles.

[Ban Hammer 13,651]

It is obvious that a Universal Health care system can work - there are plenty of examples world wide that prove it that they can and they do and in the best cases, extremely efficiently - the problem appears to be that people who appose it feel that the American government is incapable of creating and running an efficient health care system. If that is true, then the goverment requires reform.

because you say so?

Just out of interest, how come the goverment are able to run an efficient armed forces? Or is it the opinion that the goverment can't do squat that the armed forces should also be privatised?

where did you get the idea that the armed forces are efficient? ever heard of $600 hammers?

I beat you to that point Charles.

happens when i have too many windows open

[Amby 490]

at this point in my life I'm pretty healthy so I don't really worry about insurance. my mom is a dr and my regular dr knows I don't have insurance and just charges me like $10 or $20 or something whatever he feels like charging me. I'm pretty lucky. We just always try to make whatever script I get is one of the cheaper ones or free ones. The only thing I pay tons for is BC and that is $65/month but I must admit I do get quite a few sample packs since my mom is an ob/gyn so probably 50% of the time I don't have to pay for it. We do have insurance just incase something really horrible happens but otherwise we just wing it

eta: however in a few months neil is eligible for free healthcare through his employer and it's very cheap to add me as well

Edited April 16, 2008 by Amber&Neil

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

The insurance industry needs to be overhauled but I will never be in favor of single payer or universal health care. Make insurance more affordable, make it portable from job to job, cut out "pre-exsiting condition" clauses even let the government assist low income people to get health insurance. Spout all the polls and stats you want. I will never be in favor of the government taking over the nations health care.

So even if it could be proven to you that a UHC system, however it was established, would cost you less (possible), deal with you more fairly (guaranteed), and provide you with an equal or bette rlevel of care (again possible), you would still reject it out of hand on the basis of personal dogma?

P

First of all, it will never be "proven" that UHC will cost less. It will never be more "fair" and it will not give a better level of care. Your premise cannot ever be proven. The US government royally screws up everything it touches. If it got it's hands on our health care it will be more expensive and the quality of care will go down. Your right about one thing though. It will be equally fair. Equally unfair to everyone that is.

Refusal to consider a hypothesis because you don't agree with its premise does not a good argument make.

P

You said, "So even if it could be proven to you that a UHC system, however it was established, would cost you less (possible), deal with you more fairly (guaranteed), and provide you with an equal or bette rlevel of care (again possible), you would still reject it out of hand on the basis of personal dogma?"

I submitt that it cannot be proven. I can prove that every government program ever made has always cost more that advertised and provided less than it was designed to give. US history is on my side.

I don't think its unprovable - a comparison of infant mortality rates, life expectancies and the prevalence and survival rates of various diseases all say something about the standard of healthcare provision across the population.

[Peikko 1,575]

Yet, you admit that despite the problems, the armed forces can't be privatised? So, some things have to be run by the goverment come what may? But, not something that effects everyone like the health service? Curious logic.

No Charles, it's not just because I say so.

[Ban Hammer 13,651]

at this point in my life I'm pretty healthy so I don't really worry about insurance. my mom is a dr and my regular dr knows I don't have insurance and just charges me like $10 or $20 or something whatever he feels like charging me. I'm pretty lucky. We just always try to make whatever script I get is one of the cheaper ones or free ones. The only thing I pay tons for is BC and that is $65/month but I must admit I do get quite a few sample packs since my mom is an ob/gyn so probably 50% of the time I don't have to pay for it. We do have insurance just incase something really horrible happens but otherwise we just wing it

eta: however in a few months neil is eligible for free healthcare through his employer and it's very cheap to add me as well

so how do you, as someone who's fairly young, feel about being co-opted into some nhc plan so you can help pay for those that are older?

. It's crucial to get younger, healthier people into the pool to share the risk.

[GaryC 7]

The insurance industry needs to be overhauled but I will never be in favor of single payer or universal health care. Make insurance more affordable, make it portable from job to job, cut out "pre-exsiting condition" clauses even let the government assist low income people to get health insurance. Spout all the polls and stats you want. I will never be in favor of the government taking over the nations health care.

So even if it could be proven to you that a UHC system, however it was established, would cost you less (possible), deal with you more fairly (guaranteed), and provide you with an equal or bette rlevel of care (again possible), you would still reject it out of hand on the basis of personal dogma?

P

First of all, it will never be "proven" that UHC will cost less. It will never be more "fair" and it will not give a better level of care. Your premise cannot ever be proven. The US government royally screws up everything it touches. If it got it's hands on our health care it will be more expensive and the quality of care will go down. Your right about one thing though. It will be equally fair. Equally unfair to everyone that is.

Refusal to consider a hypothesis because you don't agree with its premise does not a good argument make.

P

You said, "So even if it could be proven to you that a UHC system, however it was established, would cost you less (possible), deal with you more fairly (guaranteed), and provide you with an equal or bette rlevel of care (again possible), you would still reject it out of hand on the basis of personal dogma?"

I submitt that it cannot be proven. I can prove that every government program ever made has always cost more that advertised and provided less than it was designed to give. US history is on my side.

I don't think its unprovable - a comparison of infant mortality rates, life expectancies and the prevalence and survival rates of various diseases all say something about the standard of healthcare provision across the population.

But the systems of governments are different. What works in the UK or Canada may not work here because of that. It MAY work (though I really doubt it) but once we go there it's a one way road. I am not willing to take that one way road. I feel that our current system can be fixed without giving it all to the government.

[Ban Hammer 13,651]

Yet, you admit that despite the problems, the armed forces can't be privatised? So, some things have to be run by the goverment come what may? But, not something that effects everyone like the health service? Curious logic.

No Charles, it's not just because I say so.

i think they tried that to some extent with blackwater and there was a huge uproar.....

and given how i've seen the government run the military with the waste and abuse in there, and with the government running a health care plan already (military health care) i'm not one ready for that ship to come in.

[GaryC 7]

Yet, you admit that despite the problems, the armed forces can't be privatised? So, some things have to be run by the goverment come what may? But, not something that effects everyone like the health service? Curious logic.

No Charles, it's not just because I say so.

We have a little thing called the constitution. It spells out in no uncertain terms that the military is run by the government. Health care on the other hand has no such constitutinal mandate. In fact, I would be willing to bet that a real challenge in the Supreme Court could find a NHC system unconstitutional.

[mawilson 2,133]

Yet, you admit that despite the problems, the armed forces can't be privatised?

Of course the armed forces can be privatized - there are quite a few private military contractors.

Remember Blackwater USA?

[Ban Hammer 13,651]

well i'm off to bed, be back in the morning to see how things go.