50 States + DC + Puerto Rico ranked by minimum hourly wage required to afford 2-bedroom housing

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

In my dreams the minimum wage would be pegged to the cost of housing, though it would be economically impossible.

I think it's a fine idea. The problem I can think of is who's wage gets pegged to who's housing costs?

Do we peg a downtown Manhattan minimum wage to the lowest cost accommodation within a 2 mile radius (walkable), or do we peg it to the lowest in all the 5 boroughs (train-accessible)?

It's complicated, although it's a fine idea in principle.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

My argument is that this is why the Middle Class is being squeezed out ...jobs that were considered part of the blue collar jobs have moved to the bottom of society - the working poor.

With all due respect, though, jobs that didn't exist in that long gone era do exist today and make up a huge part of the new middle class. Even if you factor in outsourcing, it's created yet newer jobs that didn't exist when I got out of college less than a decade ago. My first job out of college didn't exist when my dad came to this country in the 70s. And the job I have today didn't exist when I graduated college.

Things change, People change. Stop being bitter... quit clinging to the past

Yesterday's shoe salesman can either join the modern economy or move back in to mommy's basement.

I understand the job market changes in terms of skilled labor, but if the largest growth in the job market has been and will continue to be in service oriented jobs (retail clerks) and those jobs are paid a federal minimum wage then we have a growing class of working poor in this country and this is a big problem. You can't dismiss those jobs as merely a bad career choice while at the same time that the market says we need those kinds of laborers.

Edited April 16, 2008 by Jabberwocky

[Imua 0]

The UK is full of immigrants, but apparently they aren't picking up the plumbers wrench.

The Polish immigrants certainly are

Well then, as long as we have all the immigrants to do our 'less than desireable' jobs, we should be ok then.

Are you kidding? Plumbers make a mint, at least in the UK. Nothing "less than desirable" than earning 70 quid an hour. Of course there's a whole argument that the "polish plumber" is depressing these wages in the UK, and elswhere in the EU. THe debate about how true that might be rages. Of course, the Poles are legal immigrants.

Robin, the question I was trying to raise is whether in the future there will be enough of these individuals.

I think it is ridiculous that everyone in America is made to feel that they need a college education - I have 2 master's degrees and make under $45K. I even went to an exclusive private school(the same one Obama attended). Bloody useless. Honestly I wish I had gone to a trade school and learned a skill that would pay real money. I could have read books and broadened my mind on my own time. The one thing I can be truly proud of is that I have never had to borrow one cent in student loans - my family was struggling but I lived at home and commuted to Unversity of Hawaii and got a fully-paid fellowship to Columbia grad school. Unfortunately I made some really poor choices in my field of study. At least I won't be like the students I see every day majoring in Theatre or Communications while paying $18K per year tuition - maybe a few of them will find good jobs in their field but many will end up like me, only with huge debt loads.

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

Open question: Does government have an obligation to make sure the education you pay so much money for, and spend so much time on, is actually marketable?

[Imua 0]

My argument is that this is why the Middle Class is being squeezed out ...jobs that were considered part of the blue collar jobs have moved to the bottom of society - the working poor.

With all due respect, though, jobs that didn't exist in that long gone era do exist today and make up a huge part of the new middle class. Even if you factor in outsourcing, it's created yet newer jobs that didn't exist when I got out of college less than a decade ago. My first job out of college didn't exist when my dad came to this country in the 70s. And the job I have today didn't exist when I graduated college.

Things change, People change. Stop being bitter... quit clinging to the past

Yesterday's shoe salesman can either join the modern economy or move back in to mommy's basement.

I understand that job market changes in terms of skilled labor, but if the largest growth in the job market has been and will continue to be in service oriented jobs (retail clerks) and those jobs are paid a federal minimum wage then we have a growing class of working poor in this country and this is a big problem. You can't dismiss those jobs as merely a bad career choice while at the same time that the market says we need those kinds of laborers.

EXACTLY -this is the point I am always making to people. There are people with master's degrees taking these jobs because these are the jobs which are available now.

[Jenn! 918]

Open question: Does government have an obligation to make sure the education you pay so much money for, and spend so much time on, is actually marketable?

An obligation? How? By eliminating "useless" majors?

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

Open question: Does government have an obligation to make sure the education you pay so much money for, and spend so much time on, is actually marketable?

An obligation? How? By eliminating "useless" majors?

Or by creating jobs with 'good' salaries for the tens of thousands of college grads who feel their degrees did not help in the job market.

Or any other way you can imagine.

Is it up to people to meet market demand or is it up to the government to manipulate the market to meet the demands of the people?

[mawilson 2,133]

Open question: Does government have an obligation to make sure the education you pay so much money for, and spend so much time on, is actually marketable?

An obligation? How? By eliminating "useless" majors?

No, by not letting people borrow money (i.e. federal loans) to pursue useless majors.

[Jenn! 918]

Open question: Does government have an obligation to make sure the education you pay so much money for, and spend so much time on, is actually marketable?

An obligation? How? By eliminating "useless" majors?

Or by creating jobs with 'good' salaries for the tens of thousands of college grads who feel their degrees did not help in the job market.

Or any other way you can imagine.

Is it up to people to meet market demand or is it up to the government to manipulate the market to meet the demands of the people?

I say it's up to the people to meet market demand. Though I would have loved to major in something that I *really* enjoy, like basket weaving, and be assured of making lots of money, that doesn't really make much sense. What would we do with all the baskets? And essays on post modern art?

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

Open question: Does government have an obligation to make sure the education you pay so much money for, and spend so much time on, is actually marketable?

An obligation? How? By eliminating "useless" majors?

No, by not letting people borrow money (i.e. federal loans) to pursue useless majors.

In all fairness though, no major is useless. It's just that every market area only needs a certain number of people and not every Communications major (there are many) is going to find work in his/her area of training. We need all the majors, we just don't need all the people doing all the majors. Pattu Rani is right, a college degree really isn't a requirement to do well, perhaps it never was.

[Imua 0]

Open question: Does government have an obligation to make sure the education you pay so much money for, and spend so much time on, is actually marketable?

Lately I have wondered about this. In Europe at one time (where university is paid for) weren't there certain limitations as to how many spots were open to study certain fields based on marketability? The problem is that the way higher education is in the US it is market driven. At the college where I work we are starting a new major in Religious Studies - very profitable no? I feel very sorry for people who are pursuing Ph.Ds in the humanities these days.

When I was in school in the '80s there was very much the idea 'do what you love, the money will follow' - I think this is not necessarily true, especially in a shrinking economy. Students need to realize there is a glut of Communications and Comparative Literature majors and it will be very hard to find a job - people told me this but I did not listen. Of course when you are a student worker making $125 every 2 weeks you think a $30K salary is plenty to live on as well - I could have really used a reality check 15 years ago.

[rebeccajo 14]

The UK is full of immigrants, but apparently they aren't picking up the plumbers wrench.

The Polish immigrants certainly are

Well then, as long as we have all the immigrants to do our 'less than desireable' jobs, we should be ok then.

Are you kidding? Plumbers make a mint, at least in the UK. Nothing "less than desirable" than earning 70 quid an hour. Of course there's a whole argument that the "polish plumber" is depressing these wages in the UK, and elswhere in the EU. THe debate about how true that might be rages. Of course, the Poles are legal immigrants.

Robin, the question I was trying to raise is whether in the future there will be enough of these individuals.

Well, they are in short supply now hence the fees they can demand. Maybe people who were planning to work as a shoes salesmen need to learn a trade - plumbing.

Let's go back to my original comment, which wasn't just about plumbers. If we can do it without being condescending.

Fifty years from now, who is going to be doing the necessary 'infrastructure' work a society needs if everybody is trained for service work?

[Imua 0]

Open question: Does government have an obligation to make sure the education you pay so much money for, and spend so much time on, is actually marketable?

An obligation? How? By eliminating "useless" majors?

Or by creating jobs with 'good' salaries for the tens of thousands of college grads who feel their degrees did not help in the job market.

Or any other way you can imagine.

Is it up to people to meet market demand or is it up to the government to manipulate the market to meet the demands of the people?

I say it's up to the people to meet market demand. Though I would have loved to major in something that I *really* enjoy, like basket weaving, and be assured of making lots of money, that doesn't really make much sense. What would we do with all the baskets? And essays on post modern art?

What about all the engineering grads who went into it in the 80s because there was such a shortage, only to find their jobs outsourced in the '90s? Or the glut of MBAs now? I do feel a little Schadenfreude (a word that I learned with my useless German major) when I think of business majors saying what I was studying was useless and now many of them cannot find good jobs. There is even a surplus of lawyers now I think. Thse are all pragmatic, hard fields - how does one know what to study these days?

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

The problem is that the way higher education is in the US it is market driven.

The market is perfect when all stakeholders are rational and have access to all the pertinent information.

That's just not the case in higher education, though. Kids and their parents are fed a line of BS and many institutions are reluctant to collect, much less publish, new grad recruitment and salary statistics.

What about all the engineering grads who went into it in the 80s because there was such a shortage, only to find their jobs outsourced in the '90s? Or the glut of MBAs now? I do feel a little Schadenfreude (a word that I learned with my useless German major) when I think of business majors saying what I was studying was useless and now many of them cannot find good jobs. There is even a surplus of lawyers now I think. Thse are all pragmatic, hard fields - how does one know what to study these days?

My workplace is full of 80s engineers. These are the ones that retooled and became IT guys. Some of them, once the outsourcing hit us in 2005, joined the newly formed outsourcing governance group and are now doing well. Some of them didn't and ended up getting laid off.

Life sucks, but it is what it is. Your degree doesn't define what you can or can not do.

[mawilson 2,133]

Let's go back to my original comment, which wasn't just about plumbers. If we can do it without being condescending.

Fifty years from now, who is going to be doing the necessary 'infrastructure' work a society needs if everybody is trained for service work?

Becca - same as today - there will still be immigrants fifty years from now.