Obama calls for talks with Iran over Iraq

[HAL 9000 96]

I rather doubt Bin Laden's beef with the US has much to do with Hollywood movies.

Right or wrong. Ignorant or not. Anecdotal or not. For people who have not been to America what they read in their paper, what they hear from friends and what they see in the movies is all they have got. So when they see a movie made out to be a documentary showing how bad America is they too begin to hate the country.

Southern or Northern Democrats? Big difference. More need for history lessons my friend.

As for your tangents being poignantly stale, they're yours to make as you wish.

Don't pick and choose as you read. I already stated 100 times that liberals do not represent the entire democrat party, even though they have such a large say in it..

People are not as ignorant as you'd like them to be. Not everyone is an ignorant conservative much like not every liberal is smart.

[HAL 9000 96]

He has a point - that thing about illegal immigrants has nothing even remotely do with your previous argument.

Which argument? That dems pass bills supporting free college for illegal immigrants. Is that what some here call progress by Dems being blocked by republicans.

As I say your point appears to be twofold.

That Liberals are wrecking the country, and if it weren't for them Bin Laden wouldn't have a problem with us.

Second, that Bush cannot be blamed for things like the 2003 war because of the Democratic control of Congress since 2006.

I make a statement and you pick n choose your answers. If you don't want to answer or cannot think of any excuse for the time being you look at something else. IE EG as you have just done so.

Out of curiosity since you know so much, why do you think Bin Laden and so many others like him hate America? Is it because of Iran in the 50's?

I don't think its a matter of knowing more than you but rather reasoning things and reality a little bit more than nothing.

Quit whining brother BY and stick to your argument.

Why does bin Laden hate America so much in your opinion? Please spare us the liberal/conservative diatribe since you still need to define what aspect of liberalism you're referring to unless you'd like to clarify that finally.

[Heracles 417]

Is that all Democrats?

And, how about bills to bring the troops home from Iraq that have majority support in the population? Is that progress helped along by Bush's Vetos?

Lets bring them home. Great. Will liberals be responsible to pick up the pieces once we leave. Or will they pull another Vietnam. That is turn a blind eye and pretend the atrocities that took place after the North took over the Southern Vietnam never happened. You know the aftermath the liberal media like Jane Fonda never bothered reporting. They sure as hell filmed people being killed while America troops were there..

People are not as ignorant as you'd like them to be. Not everyone is an ignorant conservative much like not every liberal is smart.

Yes. I am not attacking democrats here. Far from it. After all I highly support the foundation of the democrat party the federalist. What I do not agree with is your hippy liberal Americans. At least these clowns have their own party downunder and are not part of the left wing Labor party. Their party is called the Greens.

[Heracles 417]

And was that beef before or after his family money came into play? Also, was Hollywood supplying his Muhajadeen in Afghanistan in the 80s??

Well that actually proves something happened between now and then. How can someone we once support suddenly turn around and want to kill every single one of us. As you guys stated earlier, the Laden family is friends with conservatives.

[HAL 9000 96]

Is that all Democrats?

And, how about bills to bring the troops home from Iraq that have majority support in the population? Is that progress helped along by Bush's Vetos?

Lets bring them home. Great. Will liberals be responsible to pick up the pieces once we leave. Or will they pull another Vietnam. That is turn a blind eye and pretend the atrocities that took place after the North took over the Southern Vietnam never happened. You know the aftermath the liberal media like Jane Fonda never bothered reporting. They sure as hell filmed people being killed while America troops were there..

Vietwhat? The last war we lost? If its about liberal politics, then how come the height of that war was escalated under Nixon, a Republican?

As for the next tangent, Fonda, well, she IS doing quite well enough to make horrible movies out of the Hamptons with her Republican friends.

TO keep it more current along the topic, where the heck was Bush Sr after the 1st Gulf war and the atrocities committed against Iraquis that followed the call to revolt against Hussein? Yet another non-liberal politician. Where does your logic fall now?

Is that all Democrats?

And, how about bills to bring the troops home from Iraq that have majority support in the population? Is that progress helped along by Bush's Vetos?

Lets bring them home. Great. Will liberals be responsible to pick up the pieces once we leave. Or will they pull another Vietnam. That is turn a blind eye and pretend the atrocities that took place after the North took over the Southern Vietnam never happened. You know the aftermath the liberal media like Jane Fonda never bothered reporting. They sure as hell filmed people being killed while America troops were there..

People are not as ignorant as you'd like them to be. Not everyone is an ignorant conservative much like not every liberal is smart.

Yes. I am not attacking democrats here. Far from it. After all I highly support the foundation of the democrat party the federalist. What I do not agree with is your hippy liberal Americans. At least these clowns have their own party downunder and are not part of the left wing Labor party. Their party is called the Greens.

That's all fine and done... hippies have their own state... Vermont. And that's pretty much the extent of their damage to your notion of liberal America.

And was that beef before or after his family money came into play? Also, was Hollywood supplying his Muhajadeen in Afghanistan in the 80s??

Well that actually proves something happened between now and then. How can someone we once support suddenly turn around and want to kill every single one of us. As you guys stated earlier, the Laden family is friends with conservatives.

That is the 65 thousand dollar question.

Blame it on Rio I guess and forget the rest.

[Heracles 417]

TO keep it more current along the topic, where the heck was Bush Sr after the 1st Gulf war and the atrocities committed against Iraquis that followed the call to revolt against Hussein? Yet another non-liberal politician. Where does your logic fall now?

Come on now. Liberals were crying about that war as well. If he had gone in and toppled him then the same #### would have been pulled again. As was done so in Vietnam and has been done since going to Iraq.

Reason I say liberals is because not all democrats think like liberals. Hence a democrat sent troops to Vietnam.

[Caladan 19]

Part of the problem is that the good guys and bad guys aren't in nice little action figure sets. The U.S. and the Iranian regime don't get along, for good reason. But Iraq and Iran didn't get along, either (there was a whole war about it in the 1980s an' everything), and so a lot of educated Iraqi types who were fleeing Saddam left the country, and some of them ended up in Iran. (To throw another monkey wrench, some of them are Kurds, too, classic good group fighting Saddam.)

But once we removed Saddam from power, a number of these guys came back. Why wouldn't they? They were in exile, and wanted to come back and help their country. But when things got rocky, the trouble (from the U.S. perspective, at least) that some of them have closer ties with Iran than they do with the U.S.

If we could imagine that this current civil war had happened without the U.S.'s intervention, and imagine further we were about to take sides, it's an interesting exercise to see that there is no one side favorable to U.S. interests.

[Heracles 417]

That's all fine and done... hippies have their own state... Vermont. And that's pretty much the extent of their damage to your notion of liberal America.

Wasn't it people in Vermont who wanted to break away from the US and form their own independent country. I wish they did it; then I could conquer it and claim it for my own.

Edited April 9, 2008 by Boo-Yah!

[HAL 9000 96]

TO keep it more current along the topic, where the heck was Bush Sr after the 1st Gulf war and the atrocities committed against Iraquis that followed the call to revolt against Hussein? Yet another non-liberal politician. Where does your logic fall now?

Come on now. Liberals were crying about that war as well. If he had gone in and toppled him then the same #### would have been pulled again. As was done so in Vietnam and has been done since going to Iraq.

Reason I say liberals is because not all democrats think like liberals. Hence a democrat sent troops to Vietnam.

Liberals were crying over what? A war that wasn't neither justified nor gone into with honesty at the forefront of the governor's lips. The rest is of course, your opinion.

Yes, good point about a Democrat sending in the Marines to Vietnam. And escalated into a senseless war by whom?

LBJ? OK. Ironically, Nixon brought most home.

[Empress of Groovy 373]

That's all fine and done... hippies have their own state... Vermont. And that's pretty much the extent of their damage to your notion of liberal America.

Wasn't it people in Vermont who wanted to break away from the US and form their own independent country. I wish they did it; then I could conquer it and claim it for my own.

No, that's Texas.

[Ban Hammer 13,651]

place marker so i don't cover the same ground again

[Heracles 417]

Liberals were crying over what? A war that wasn't neither justified nor gone into with honesty at the forefront of the governor's lips. The rest is of course, your opinion.

Yes, good point about a Democrat sending in the Marines to Vietnam. And escalated into a senseless war by whom?

LBJ? OK. Ironically, Nixon brought most home.

Senseless WAR!!!!!!! They had the 'audacity' to fight for somebody else's freedom while the hippies were abusing drugs and refusing to work

Nixon was a stereotypical corrupt politician who looked out for his own ###. On the other hand this is where I commend George Bush. He has stuck by his views. Agree with it or not, a trait very very few politicians now have.

Edited April 9, 2008 by Boo-Yah!

[Empress of Groovy 373]

Liberals were crying over what? A war that wasn't neither justified nor gone into with honesty at the forefront of the governor's lips. The rest is of course, your opinion.

Yes, good point about a Democrat sending in the Marines to Vietnam. And escalated into a senseless war by whom?

LBJ? OK. Ironically, Nixon brought most home.

Senseless WAR!!!!!!! They had the 'audacity' to fight for somebody else's freedom while the hippies were abusing drugs and refusing to work

Nixon was a stereotypical corrupt politician who looked out for his own ###. On the other hand this is where I commend George Bush. He has stuck by his views. Agree with it or not, a trait very very few politicians now have.

BY, you talk about the hippies as if they were a huge and influential population; they were neither. They got a lot of attention because they tended to be middle-class white kids with long hair, shaking their fists in front of TV cameras. By the late 1960s, the majority of Americans--not just these dope-smoking draft dodgers--wanted the the Vietnam conflict to end and the troops to come home.

Elsewhere on the board, some of the right-leaning VJ members like to post articles about diminishing public support for the Vietnam conflict, pointing fingers at the supposed liberal 1960s media as responsible for antiwar positions (as if the conflict weren't now seen as a colossal mistake). Few mention the numbers of casualties--Nearly 40,000 U.S. soldiers were killed in three years (1967-1969). In 1967 and 1969, U.S. soldiers were being killed at a rate of roughly 1,000 a month. And in 1968, during the Tet Offensive, almost 16,000 U.S. soldiers were killed. Yes, the U.S. eventually quashed the offensive, but at what cost? Wouldn't you think that public opinion had a lot to do with these numbers, plus a draft?

Also, anyone who thinks the mass media in the 1960s was liberal needs to get to the library and start looking at archived issues of popular magazines and newspapers.

Edited April 9, 2008 by Big Agnes!

[HAL 9000 96]

Bush HAS stuck to his guns on his own points. And that is why he has polarized the majority of America against him. I guess that is what happens when you don't act democratically in a democracy.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

He has a point - that thing about illegal immigrants has nothing even remotely do with your previous argument.

Which argument? That dems pass bills supporting free college for illegal immigrants. Is that what some here call progress by Dems being blocked by republicans.

As I say your point appears to be twofold.

That Liberals are wrecking the country, and if it weren't for them Bin Laden wouldn't have a problem with us.

Second, that Bush cannot be blamed for things like the 2003 war because of the Democratic control of Congress since 2006.

I make a statement and you pick n choose your answers. If you don't want to answer or cannot think of any excuse for the time being you look at something else. IE EG as you have just done so.

Out of curiosity since you know so much, why do you think Bin Laden and so many others like him hate America? Is it because of Iran in the 50's?

Not really picking and choosing answers - simply trying to follow the conversation in the context of the thread.

As to Bin Laden et al's hatred - I'll give you this for nothing: I doubt it has much to do with Hollywood movies. All the Michael Moore movies in the world don't make someone strap explosives to their chest or saw someone's head off with a knife.

Bin Laden and Al Qaeda war on the west might have been born out of resentments over successive western foreign policy initiatives (not least support of Israel), buit they have their own ideological goal too. That ideology relies on a number of things - not least a general lack of education among the "grunts" who do their dirty work. I mean... you need only look at Afghanistan under the Taliban. They didn't exactly have a Lloew's theatre on every corner.

Edited April 9, 2008 by Number 6