Obama calls for talks with Iran over Iraq

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

Well......

Osama bin Laden has made several public statements concerning what his specific "beef" is with America. And as Number 6 has already pointed out, it has nothing to do with "liberal Americans," or "Hollywood movies," or actually anything that Americans do in their own country. According to The Man Himself, his "beef" is:

#1 U.S. military presence in Muslim countries

#2 U.S. support for Israel

You can read the translations of his statements here, courtesy of PBS:

"Declaration of War against the Americans Occupying the Land of the Two Holy Places"

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/terrorism/inte...fatwa_1996.html

and something titled simply "Al Qaeda's Fatwa"

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/terrorism/inte...fatwa_1998.html

The various videos attributed to bin Laden have been scrutinized extensively. There is a rather interesting synopsis here, including links for the transcripts:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Videos_of_Osama_bin_Laden

Now before the usual mouth-breathers start calling me a terrorist or a terror supporter just because I'm posting the facts, let me say it AGAIN -- I do *not* support any acts of terror, nor any terrorist groups. (And I really don't think PBS does, either.)

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Bush HAS stuck to his guns on his own points. And that is why he has polarized the majority of America against him. I guess that is what happens when you don't act democratically in a democracy.

Yep. Tony Blair too - his reputation never recovered.

[kaydee457 13]

Well......

Osama bin Laden has made several public statements concerning what his specific "beef" is with America. And as Number 6 has already pointed out, it has nothing to do with "liberal Americans," or "Hollywood movies," or actually anything that Americans do in their own country. According to The Man Himself, his "beef" is:

#1 U.S. military presence in Muslim countries

#2 U.S. support for Israel

You can read the translations of his statements here, courtesy of PBS:

"Declaration of War against the Americans Occupying the Land of the Two Holy Places"

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/terrorism/inte...fatwa_1996.html

and something titled simply "Al Qaeda's Fatwa"

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/terrorism/inte...fatwa_1998.html

The various videos attributed to bin Laden have been scrutinized extensively. There is a rather interesting synopsis here, including links for the transcripts:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Videos_of_Osama_bin_Laden

Now before the usual mouth-breathers start calling me a terrorist or a terror supporter just because I'm posting the facts, let me say it AGAIN -- I do *not* support any acts of terror, nor any terrorist groups. (And I really don't think PBS does, either.)

When did geopolitics become an amateur sport? This is not a popularity contest, and frankly, no one in this country, particularly those in federal government, should give a rats a$$ what Bin Laden’s gripes may be now, in the past, or in the future......if he has any for I hope we drag him alive and kicking to humiliate him as demonstrate to the world what a coward he is.

Sheesh!

We wouldn't even be having this argument if Clinton had done what Bush would have done; take him out! As we all know, Sandy Berger, having stolen documents stuiffed into his socks, from the National Archives, assured that we'll never know the level of incompetence and liability that Billy-boy had to do with all this.

Never forget that we have allies in that part of the world, and that our very existence and way of life depends on the very thing that all liberals disdain, but are the first to whine and cry about if denied; that's OIL people!

[Peikko 1,575]

I thought it was reps who got whiney when oil stocks got low? After all, liberals can always get on their bikes!

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

Well......

Osama bin Laden has made several public statements concerning what his specific "beef" is with America. And as Number 6 has already pointed out, it has nothing to do with "liberal Americans," or "Hollywood movies," or actually anything that Americans do in their own country. According to The Man Himself, his "beef" is:

#1 U.S. military presence in Muslim countries

#2 U.S. support for Israel

You can read the translations of his statements here, courtesy of PBS:

"Declaration of War against the Americans Occupying the Land of the Two Holy Places"

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/terrorism/inte...fatwa_1996.html

and something titled simply "Al Qaeda's Fatwa"

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/terrorism/inte...fatwa_1998.html

The various videos attributed to bin Laden have been scrutinized extensively. There is a rather interesting synopsis here, including links for the transcripts:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Videos_of_Osama_bin_Laden

Now before the usual mouth-breathers start calling me a terrorist or a terror supporter just because I'm posting the facts, let me say it AGAIN -- I do *not* support any acts of terror, nor any terrorist groups. (And I really don't think PBS does, either.)

When did geopolitics become an amateur sport? This is not a popularity contest, and frankly, no one in this country, particularly those in federal government, should give a rats a$$ what Bin Laden’s gripes may be now, in the past, or in the future......if he has any for I hope we drag him alive and kicking to humiliate him as demonstrate to the world what a coward he is.

Sheesh!

We wouldn't even be having this argument if Clinton had done what Bush would have done; take him out! As we all know, Sandy Berger, having stolen documents stuiffed into his socks, from the National Archives, assured that we'll never know the level of incompetence and liability that Billy-boy had to do with all this.

Never forget that we have allies in that part of the world, and that our very existence and way of life depends on the very thing that all liberals disdain, but are the first to whine and cry about if denied; that's OIL people!

Are you even reading this thread ???????? I am responding to the last several pages of discussion, including this direct question:

He has a point - that thing about illegal immigrants has nothing even remotely do with your previous argument.

Which argument? That dems pass bills supporting free college for illegal immigrants. Is that what some here call progress by Dems being blocked by republicans.

As I say your point appears to be twofold.

That Liberals are wrecking the country, and if it weren't for them Bin Laden wouldn't have a problem with us.

Second, that Bush cannot be blamed for things like the 2003 war because of the Democratic control of Congress since 2006.

I make a statement and you pick n choose your answers. If you don't want to answer or cannot think of any excuse for the time being you look at something else. IE EG as you have just done so.

Out of curiosity since you know so much, why do you think Bin Laden and so many others like him hate America? Is it because of Iran in the 50's?

Talk about "Sheesh!"

[Heracles 417]

Well......

Osama bin Laden has made several public statements concerning what his specific "beef" is with America. And as Number 6 has already pointed out, it has nothing to do with "liberal Americans," or "Hollywood movies," or actually anything that Americans do in their own country. According to The Man Himself, his "beef" is:

#1 U.S. military presence in Muslim countries

#2 U.S. support for Israel

I remember seeing a documentary on the discovery channel on him where it stated how much he despised the "infidel American culture" and it was one of the main reasons he took this direction. It was a few years ago so I don't remember the name of the show. While I don't doubt the above but many abroad with traditional Muslim beliefs see Hollywood as having a negative influence on their culture. Unless someone has been here they will not understand that there is a good 200,000,000 Americans who don't live in NY or LA, San Fran etc. The cultural differences between those places to the rest of America are huge.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

"American Infidel Culture" is hardly a specific indictment of Liberals. In fact the key word here is Infidel (i.e. Unbeliever)

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

I remember seeing a documentary on the discovery channel on him where it stated how much he despised the "infidel American culture" and it was one of the main reasons he took this direction. It was a few years ago so I don't remember the name of the show. While I don't doubt the above but many abroad with traditional Muslim beliefs see Hollywood as having a negative influence on their culture. Unless someone has been here they will not understand that there is a good 200,000,000 Americans who don't live in NY or LA, San Fran etc. The cultural differences between those places to the rest of America are huge.

Well I don't doubt that you may have seen a program that made this claim. President George W. Bush has made the same sorts of claims, saying "America was targeted for attack because we're the brightest beacon for freedom and opportunity in the world." This mantra has been repeated so many times that it's gained a life of its own -- "They hate us for our freedoms."

But that's not what bin Laden has said, and it's certainly not what U.S. intelligence analysts have said about what motivates him, either.

Now it's absolutely true that bin Laden sees America as a very corrupt place -- he's mentioned it in his statements. But he's *never* given this as a reason for the attacks.

In fact, there are a lot of places in the world that have just as much "freedom and opportunity" as the United States (and some are far more "liberal" than the U.S.) yet bin Laden did not support attacks against a country like, for instance, Sweden. Why ? The answer is in his own statements -- over and over, bin Laden has cited 2 things:

#1 American military presence in Muslim countries

#2 American support of Israel

In fact, he's been much more consistent on his points than Bush, who has switched canoes on his reasons for attacking Iraq more times than you can shake a stick at -- first it was about protecting oil supplies, then it was about violating U.N. resolutions, then it was about weapons of mass destruction, then it was about Saddam harboring al Qaeda, then it was about human rights, then it was about bringing democracy, and on and on down the list.

But bin Laden has stuck to his same message the whole time.

Even more importantly -- our own intelligence experts concur that bin Laden's motivation is exactly what he's said it is. When the FBI testified before the Senate, it said that bin Laden's attacks were specifically fueled by his opposition to U.S. military forces in the Persian Gulf area, most notably Saudi Arabia; U.S. support of what bin Laden considered corrupt Middle Eastern leaders; and U.S. support for Israel’s occupation of Palestinian lands.

Graham E. Fuller, former vice chairman of the National Intelligence Council at the CIA, warned in 1998, “It is dangerous to divorce terrorism from politics, yet the U.S. media continue to talk about an abstract war against terrorism without mention of the issues or context that lie behind them."

Peter Bergen, the first Western journalist to obtain a television interview with bin Laden, writes in his book Holy War, Inc., "What [bin Laden] condemns the United States for is simple: its policies in the Middle East... These are... the continued U.S. military presence in Arabia; U.S. support for Israel; its continued bombing of Iraq; and its support for regimes such as Egypt and Saudi Arabia that bin Laden regards as apostates from Islam."

Now why would the American president refuse to acknowledge any of this, and instead try to create a "war-on-freedom" myth ?

Some cynics would say that Bush does it on purpose -- that he intentionally denies the truth in order to deflect attention from the specific foreign policies that bin Laden singles out, to shield them from being openly discussed (or perhaps questioned) by the American people.

But if these policies are actually in the best interests of the American people, then why can't they be openly discussed ? Why deceive the American public with fairy tales about "they hate us for our freedom ?"

The cynics would say that this sort of deception only serves the special interests that just happen to be pushing these specific foreign policies.