Here's a fact you don't hear much about: Between a third and a half of the nation's illegal immigrants - at least 3.8 million people - entered the USA

[Ban Hammer 13,644]

I took a busing job at an Olive Garden in Flagstaff, AZ after my first year in art school. I was the only guido busing tables - the kitchen crew got a kick out of that. Anyhow, I was hired along with many of these hispanic workers - we all had to present the federal requirement of two forms of identification. Several weeks later, the INS van showed up and cleaned out the whole kitchen crew. We lost everyone. The INS ended up having to release them and these guys moved on to another restaurant - and so the cycle continues. These guys were hard working, good people - not villians. They just wanted a job. They weren't using someone else's ss# or identity. From what I gathered, they had bogus cards. These guys never file with the IRS and so all those deductions from their checks (Social Security, Fed and State Taxes) are never reclaimed. It's a complicated issue. Who's the real criminal here? I remember my manager having to work in the kitchen struggling to find replacements. We have a job market and an economy that not only supports illegals working, but thrives from it. The system is broken and has been for a long time. We can argue symantecs until we're blue in the face but I stand behind my argument that they are not criminals in the conventional sense of the word and those who keep painting them as such are showing bigotry. Where's the outcry over white collar criminals? Why aren't we marching to Washington to make sure guys like Kenneth Lay don't bilk us? I agree that we need to fix the system with regard to illegal immigrants but the focus and anger towards the actual illegals is lopsided.

ok, here is something for you to ponder. they had bogus numbers. so you say imagine you lose your job and apply for unemployment. or you retire and await your social security check.

but you can't get it because according to your work history, your ssn is being used in another state. perhaps dozens of times.

it's a victimless crime until it hits you it seems.

Edited July 30, 2006 by charlesandnessa

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

given that, we could make excuses for the poor person that robs a bank. or sells crack...

no dice, steve. keep trying.

No because those crimes involve victims. That's the difference.

Illegal labor and the often corresponding identity theft has victims, too. Talk to those that lost their identity or livelihood to illegal labor - there's millions of victims right there for you. Gotta do better than that, bro!

I was hired along with many of these hispanic workers - we all had to present the federal requirement of two forms of identification. Several weeks later, the INS van showed up and cleaned out the whole kitchen crew. ... They weren't using someone else's ss# or identity. From what I gathered, they had bogus cards. ... It's a complicated issue.

The person that happens to have the same SSN as the one that shows on the bogus card, my friend, is a victim of identity theft. Should that person show up to file for benefits while the SSA collects contributions from "them" (from the identity thief, really), the SSA will deny the claim as the claimant is apparently doing fine working and paying into the system.

It's not complicated: It's identity theft and there are real, actual victims.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Charles, for those who have a criminal background - deport their arses. But for those who maintained gainful employment and have otherwise stayed within the law, don't villianize them. I'm not advocating that we just open our borders - I recognize that it is a problem, but there are many culprits to the problem, least of which are the majority of illegals who are just trying to make a better life for themselves.

One solution I've heard is to have a national registry for employers. When a new hire gives them a ss#, the employer can enter that the name and number to check if it is legitimate. Right now, the ones who seem to benefit the most from the cheap and abundant labor are the employers. Americans upset over illegal immigration do not focus enough of their concern with employers and that seems odd.

that's the solution, add more work to our overburdened police checking them all out

and yes, you are advocating opening our borders. removing the felony charge of illegally being here encourages more immigration. "hey the gringos will let us stay just don't rob anything"

if someone wanted to put a fine on an employer of say $10,000 per illegal that would probably solve a lot of our problems.

but while you are talking about allowing them to stay, they get exploited by the employers for cheap labor. don't sound like all that good a deal either way. send them home, institute the guest worker visa.

given that, we could make excuses for the poor person that robs a bank. or sells crack...

no dice, steve. keep trying.

No because those crimes involve victims. That's the difference.

then such applies. the entire usa is a victim.

After I read this thread about the multi faceted problem the US faces right now, it appears that a big piece missing in the solution is to effectively punish employers that hire illegals. The problem with it is that many of the companies that will be affected may have influence with our legislators. We would most likely hear major whining if employers were actually fined on a regular basis but IMO the market would eventually correct itself. It also means many of our consumable items would have a price increase. It makes sense because it removes the biggest incentive for the illegals to stay. I have heard about many proposals like building a very expensive fence, helping other nations create jobs, and deporting millions of illegals. All of these ideas will take massive amounts $$$$$$$$$$$ resources either way. The facts are that it seems that nothing is being done to effectively and efficiently tackle the problem that was created years ago and ignored and now we need to solve it together.

You hit the nail on the head.

[Lewis 0]

Steven,

I just hope voters send a message to our leaders in the elections coming up. I have to admit I could be more politically active but lately I have been. In my state, MD, a senate seat is up for grabs. The House is on vacation now with the Senate going on their vacation very soon also. The immigration problem has not been tackled, nor the budget, social security and many other relvant issues.

I apologize for getting off topic.

[Fandango 1,440]

given that, we could make excuses for the poor person that robs a bank. or sells crack...

no dice, steve. keep trying.

No because those crimes involve victims. That's the difference.

Illegal labor and the often corresponding identity theft has victims, too. Talk to those that lost their identity or livelihood to illegal labor - there's millions of victims right there for you. Gotta do better than that, bro!

I took a busing job at an Olive Garden in Flagstaff, AZ after my first year in art school. I was the only guido busing tables - the kitchen crew got a kick out of that. Anyhow, I was hired along with many of these hispanic workers - we all had to present the federal requirement of two forms of identification. Several weeks later, the INS van showed up and cleaned out the whole kitchen crew. We lost everyone. The INS ended up having to release them and these guys moved on to another restaurant - and so the cycle continues. These guys were hard working, good people - not villians. They just wanted a job. They weren't using someone else's ss# or identity. From what I gathered, they had bogus cards. These guys never file with the IRS and so all those deductions from their checks (Social Security, Fed and State Taxes) are never reclaimed. It's a complicated issue. Who's the real criminal here? I remember my manager having to work in the kitchen struggling to find replacements. We have a job market and an economy that not only supports illegals working, but thrives from it. The system is broken and has been for a long time. We can argue symantecs until we're blue in the face but I stand behind my argument that they are not criminals in the conventional sense of the word and those who keep painting them as such are showing bigotry. Where's the outcry over white collar criminals? Why aren't we marching to Washington to make sure guys like Kenneth Lay don't bilk us? I agree that we need to fix the system with regard to illegal immigrants but the focus and anger towards the actual illegals is lopsided.

'hey the system thrives from illegals, therefore it must be ok'

niiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiice logic there.

Steven....since you're so gung ho for illegals...why not donate half your salary to them? Sponsor someone from a poorer country to come here...after all they have the right to a nice life. Put them up in your house.

Oh waiiit....you only play fast and loose with everyone else's money....I get it now!

See, if you walked the walk, then I really can't complain...but you sit there on that ever so high horse and spout nonsense about 'victimless crimes' when in fact it is simply not so. But since it doesn't affect YOU personally, it doesn't matter, does it?

You, me and most every American is supporting the system which enables illegal aliens to work here whether you care to admit it or not. So the same could be said about you, Miss Ginsu - put your money where your mouth is and stop shopping at places who hire illegals. How about your employer? Who cleans the office at night? Why aren't you protesting about that? You seemed to have overlooked that I said it is a broken system that needs fixing, but the focus is way lopsided towards the illegals rather than all the other factors that come into play.

Here, you can start by boycotting Walmart for hiring illegals:

http://www.alipac.us/modules.php?name=Surv...s&pollID=35

That's actually quite condescending, but you missed my point entirely....

MY POINT once again is that since you feel illegals have the right to be here and work.....YOU should actually be supporting companies that hire them. Or as I said before....give YOUR wage away.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

given that, we could make excuses for the poor person that robs a bank. or sells crack...

no dice, steve. keep trying.

No because those crimes involve victims. That's the difference.

Illegal labor and the often corresponding identity theft has victims, too. Talk to those that lost their identity or livelihood to illegal labor - there's millions of victims right there for you. Gotta do better than that, bro!

I was hired along with many of these hispanic workers - we all had to present the federal requirement of two forms of identification. Several weeks later, the INS van showed up and cleaned out the whole kitchen crew. ... They weren't using someone else's ss# or identity. From what I gathered, they had bogus cards. ... It's a complicated issue.

The person that happens to have the same SSN as the one that shows on the bogus card, my friend, is a victim of identity theft. Should that person show up to file for benefits while the SSA collects contributions from "them" (from the identity thief, really), the SSA will deny the claim as the claimant is apparently doing fine working and paying into the system.

It's not complicated: It's identity theft and there are real, actual victims.

Here's something worth noting...

Fraudulent IDs riskier for illegal immigrants

by Tim Funk

When David arrived in Charlotte last month, he went looking for a job carrying a fake Social Security card.

It worked: He's now cleaning rooms at a hotel, sending much of what he earns back to his wife and kids in Central America.

David, who's in his 30s, knows he could go to jail or be deported for using the authentic-looking card, which he bought -- along with a fraudulent "green card" -- for $140.

"It's worth the risk," he says through an interpreter. "It's the only way for me to get a job in this rich country."

Getting a nine-digit number that can pass for the U.S. government-issued ID is often the first order of business for illegal immigrants who come to boomtowns such as Charlotte.

But after Sept. 11, the same fake numbers are increasingly tipping off security-conscious agencies looking to track down people in the country illegally.

After auditing employment records at Charlotte/Douglas International Airport, the Immigration and Naturalization Service announced last week that it had identified more than 260 illegal immigrants. Among them: 65 indicted on charges of using false information to get access to secure areas.

The Social Security Administration is also cracking down, sending letters to Harris Teeter and Food Lion in recent months that resulted in the firing of dozens of undocumented Latino employees of their N.C. stores.

Late this year, Social Security also will begin sending letters to every company that has even one employee whose name and number don't match. Before, only businesses with a high percentage of workers with bad numbers would get letters.

The change doesn't mean federal agents will soon be swooping down on every grocery store, hotel and lawn service with illegal immigrants on their payroll, says Buster Williams, an Atlanta-based agent of the Social Security Administration who participated in the investigation at Charlotte/Douglas.

"But I can tell you that 9/11 definitely heightened the interest in working these type cases."

Reputation of working hard

Before homeland security became the nation's watchword, many businesses were so eager to hire Hispanics, who had a reputation for working hard for little pay, that they took little notice of obviously fake documents. Deb McLean, vice president of marketing at Charlotte Metro Credit Union, even heard of some Latinos who tried to open accounts with phony Social Security numbers supplied by their companies.

"Some would say, 'My employer told me to use this number,' " she says.

Sept. 11 has quieted such talk. And the airport sweep, one of several around the country that snared mostly Mexican janitors, has re-ignited the Carolinas debate over illegal immigration.

No one can say how many undocumented workers live in the two states, but North Carolina has the country's fastest-growing Latino population; South Carolina ranks sixth.

In the past week, many local listeners of talk radio have called in to applaud the airport arrests and urge the INS to step up enforcement of immigration laws.

But many businesses would like to find a way to legalize immigrant workers.

"I don't think the federal government realizes what a pivotal role these Hispanic workers play in our economy," says Jim Johnson, a professor of management at UNC Chapel Hill's Kenan-Flagler Business School.

"If these actions continue, it's going to be like a house of cards -- our economy is going to crumble."

All about the number

Since 1937, Social Security has been withdrawing money from paychecks, then counting it toward workers' retirement. The numbers Americans are assigned when they begin working keep track of who is to get what.

But in the past 20 years, the Social Security number has effectively become a person's ID -- "the main number," says McLean of the credit union.

"It really took off with the strides in technology," she says. "Colleges use it to keep track of students. Many states use it for driver's licenses. Banks and credit unions use it to open accounts and check credit histories."

And businesses are required to ask for it when hiring.

That's the first lesson newcomers learn when they arrive in the States: To work, they must have a Social Security number.

But since illegal immigrants can't get one from the government, they buy one.

According to interviews with illegal immigrants and those who work with them, more than a dozen underground forgers cater to Spanish-speakers in Charlotte. African and Asian immigrants, they say, have their own networks.

Typically, immigrants who want a fake ID will rely on friends or word of mouth to get a forger's cell phone or pager number.

"I need some help getting documents to work," the immigrant might say when someone answers.

There's no mention of a Social Security number or a "green card," the nickname for the INS-issued ID, complete with photo, which says the holder lives here legally.

The business transaction is done at the forger's place, where he keeps his scanner and other equipment, or at the immigrant's home, after dark, when the forger shows up with a camera.

A package deal -- one Social Security card, one green card -- can cost between $120 and $150. Sometimes the cards are dead ringers for the real thing; sometimes they look fake, with misspellings ("varification" instead of "verification"), creative artwork of U.S. eagles, and photos that look tacked on.

Some immigrants find legal residents, often living in another state, who are willing to sell the use of their real numbers and names.

That can get expensive: $1,000 and up.

Effects of crackdown

What will happen as federal agencies get tougher? There are some clues.

When the Social Security Administration contacted Harris Teeter in November, the grocery chain gave those workers on the list three weeks, until mid-December, to come up with legal numbers.

Half of them did. And the other half?

"A number of them left on their own accord," said Harris Teeter spokeswoman Jessica Graham.

Nolo Martinez, director of Hispanic/Latino affairs for N.C. Gov. Mike Easley, says he expects the federal crackdown to merely create what he calls a revolving door for illegal workers.

"If employees can't produce the right numbers," he says, "they'll leave that job and go get another one."

Probably using the same fake Social Security number, he says.

http://are.berkeley.edu/APMP/pubs/i9news/fakeIDs031602.html

given that, we could make excuses for the poor person that robs a bank. or sells crack...

no dice, steve. keep trying.

No because those crimes involve victims. That's the difference.

Illegal labor and the often corresponding identity theft has victims, too. Talk to those that lost their identity or livelihood to illegal labor - there's millions of victims right there for you. Gotta do better than that, bro!

I took a busing job at an Olive Garden in Flagstaff, AZ after my first year in art school. I was the only guido busing tables - the kitchen crew got a kick out of that. Anyhow, I was hired along with many of these hispanic workers - we all had to present the federal requirement of two forms of identification. Several weeks later, the INS van showed up and cleaned out the whole kitchen crew. We lost everyone. The INS ended up having to release them and these guys moved on to another restaurant - and so the cycle continues. These guys were hard working, good people - not villians. They just wanted a job. They weren't using someone else's ss# or identity. From what I gathered, they had bogus cards. These guys never file with the IRS and so all those deductions from their checks (Social Security, Fed and State Taxes) are never reclaimed. It's a complicated issue. Who's the real criminal here? I remember my manager having to work in the kitchen struggling to find replacements. We have a job market and an economy that not only supports illegals working, but thrives from it. The system is broken and has been for a long time. We can argue symantecs until we're blue in the face but I stand behind my argument that they are not criminals in the conventional sense of the word and those who keep painting them as such are showing bigotry. Where's the outcry over white collar criminals? Why aren't we marching to Washington to make sure guys like Kenneth Lay don't bilk us? I agree that we need to fix the system with regard to illegal immigrants but the focus and anger towards the actual illegals is lopsided.

'hey the system thrives from illegals, therefore it must be ok'

niiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiice logic there.

Steven....since you're so gung ho for illegals...why not donate half your salary to them? Sponsor someone from a poorer country to come here...after all they have the right to a nice life. Put them up in your house.

Oh waiiit....you only play fast and loose with everyone else's money....I get it now!

See, if you walked the walk, then I really can't complain...but you sit there on that ever so high horse and spout nonsense about 'victimless crimes' when in fact it is simply not so. But since it doesn't affect YOU personally, it doesn't matter, does it?

You, me and most every American is supporting the system which enables illegal aliens to work here whether you care to admit it or not. So the same could be said about you, Miss Ginsu - put your money where your mouth is and stop shopping at places who hire illegals. How about your employer? Who cleans the office at night? Why aren't you protesting about that? You seemed to have overlooked that I said it is a broken system that needs fixing, but the focus is way lopsided towards the illegals rather than all the other factors that come into play.

Here, you can start by boycotting Walmart for hiring illegals:

http://www.alipac.us/modules.php?name=Surv...s&pollID=35

That's actually quite condescending, but you missed my point entirely....

MY POINT once again is that since you feel illegals have the right to be here and work.....YOU should actually be supporting companies that hire them. Or as I said before....give YOUR wage away.

Where did I say they have a right to work here? Geez Lisa, get a clue!

Edited July 30, 2006 by Steven_and_Jinky

[Ban Hammer 13,644]

you are on the right track. it's a multi prong approach that needs to be taken.

1. require the companies to check out if such is a valid number and name.

2. impose severe financial penalties on companies that hire illegals.

3. continue to build the fence to keep them and drug smugglers out

4. end catch and release - transport them to a central holding area near the ocean and then deport them to the southern end of mexico (this was done in the 1950's btw - worked great because if they wanted to return they'd have to travel the entire length of mexico to get back - AND it makes mexico deal with them).

Edited July 30, 2006 by charlesandnessa

[Laura_and_IanM 0]

Bottom line?? Well I would say is this, regardless if an illegal immigrant is here to work hard to help his family out, or he/she is here to cause havoc, it is still ILLEGAL!!! And, they are taking OUR JOBS!! It is about time that we as AMERICANS TAKE BACK WHAT IS OURS AND STOP BEING SO SYMPATHETIC FOR EVERYONE ELSE WHO COMES FROM ANOTHER COUNTRY!!! Eventually, our country will end up just like the ones that these Illegal immigrants come from. You may not believe it, but it will happen if it keeps up going the way it is going. I am so fed up with patting them on their backs and saying "there, there, things will be ok"..NO THINGS WON'T BE OK!! Yeah, perhaps it will be for them, but not for the AMERICANS who can't even get a job because they are being filled with illegal immigrants/cheap labour. Where is your common sense? As far as the speeding goes, yeah it isn't a felony if that is all you are getting done in for, but it is when you are speeding and you hit and kill someone! Come on...stop fluffing it up for the illegals. I don't care how they got here, I don't care how hard they work. I couldn't even get a ###### JOB FOR over a year before I came to the UK last May because of economy and illegal immigrants taking the jobs...So don't sit there and tell me that it isn't a crime. It's a crime because when I can't get a job and can't afford to take care of myself let alone take care of my children which I ended up agreeing to give the EX custody of because of it...ITS A CRIME...and it's a crime to force an AMERICAN to go on WELFARE for which the AMERICANS PAY INTO OUT OF THEIR HARD EARNED MONEY on account of NO JOBS DUE TO ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS TAKING THE JOBS...ffs...now I am pissed...of all the utter nonsense bullshite I have ever heard of ...this takes the flipping cake. I know...let me go back to NY, fight for custody of my children, and live off of child support and welfare for which YOU Steven will be helping to pay for...then come back and tell me that you think the same way. A CRIME? HELL YES IT IS A CRIME!!! GINSU LISA...TAKE OVER PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!

LJ

[Fandango 1,440]

Where did I say they have a right to work here? Geez Lisa, get a clue!

Well, I inferred that from many things that you posted. Here are a few:

Most of the illegal immigrants are here not to wreak havoc but for economic reasons. In my opinion, it's a victimless crime and doesn't deserve them to be labeled as criminal.

With regard to the illegals who have crossed over the southern border it is much more complicated than that. You can't ignore the history between the U.S. and Mexico, and why so many will risk their lives across treacherous conditions to make it here. We've pretty much turned a blind eye to them for so many years

Charles, for those who have a criminal background - deport their arses. But for those who maintained gainful employment and have otherwise stayed within the law, don't villianize them.

We have a job market and an economy that not only supports illegals working, but thrives from it. The system is broken and has been for a long time.

Yes, I see that you still labeled it a 'crime'...but the fact that you see it as a victimless one, the fact that supposedly the American economy thrives on it, the fact that these illegals risk their lives for a 'better life' and to save them from poverty, since we've had a 'blind eye' for so long and it's only because of our 'skittishness' that we're kicking up a fuss now, and how the illegals who have kept employment & not gotten into trouble shouldn't be labeled a criminal. (you have made all of these arguments)...I can't see how you could then logically turn around and say that you're not a supporter of illegal workers. Did you come right out and say it? Of course not. But you're detracting from the issue which is it is a crime, not a victimless one. One that involves federal fraud, among other things.

You have tried six ways from Sunday to avoid the simple fact that if you are illegal, you are breaking the law, and you are a criminal. There is no emotion there, just fact.

I understand the situation in Mexico (since you've focused on the border situation) is dire to some...but that is not my problem. Why is a dire Mexico situation more important than any other nation's dire problem? While it is unfortunate that this ####### goes on all over the world, it is not up to the USA to fix the world's problems and stomp out poverty. I am all for legal immigration (obviously) and legal work visas and whatnot. But don't tell me that someone who commits fraud isn't a criminal. And dont' give me some wah wah story to excuse it as if that makes everything ok. Someone here brought up bank robbery. Well would it make it ok to rob a bank if someone needs money to eat? No of course not. Same thing here.

Is it a victimless crime when I'm paying for taxes to pay medical bills for illegals? Nope! You know when I was younger...I was newly married & 3 days out from being covered on my spouse's insurance. I was a collega graduate, but actually made wayyy more money doing NAILS! Anyways, I fell and broke my wrist. Well off to the hospital I go....newly married, hardly no money, with an uneployment period ahead of me.

Did the hospital care? Nope! Did I pay the bill? YEP!

Once you stop justifying things with your bleeding heart & see them for fact, we'll be able to have a better conversation.

Edited July 30, 2006 by LisaD

[Ban Hammer 13,644]

Yes, I see that you still labeled it a 'crime'...but the fact that you see it as a victimless one, the fact that supposedly the American economy thrives on it, the fact that these illegals risk their lives for a 'better life' and to save them from poverty, since we've had a 'blind eye' for so long and it's only because of our 'skittishness' that we're kicking up a fuss now, and how the illegals who have kept employment & not gotten into trouble shouldn't be labeled a criminal. (you have made all of these arguments)...I can't see how you could then logically turn around and say that you're not a supporter of illegal workers. Did you come right out and say it? Of course not. But you're detracting from the issue which is it is a crime, not a victimless one. One that involves federal fraud, among other things.

You have tried six ways from Sunday to avoid the simple fact that if you are illegal, you are breaking the law, and you are a criminal. There is no emotion there, just fact.

I understand the situation in Mexico (since you've focused on the border situation) is dire to some...but that is not my problem. Why is a dire Mexico situation more important than any other nation's dire problem? While it is unfortunate that this ####### goes on all over the world, it is not up to the USA to fix the world's problems and stomp out poverty. I am all for legal immigration (obviously) and legal work visas and whatnot. But don't tell me that someone who commits fraud isn't a criminal. And dont' give me some wah wah story to excuse it as if that makes everything ok. Someone here brought up bank robbery. Well would it make it ok to rob a bank if someone needs money to eat? No of course not. Same thing here.

Is it a victimless crime when I'm paying for taxes to pay medical bills for illegals? Nope! You know when I was younger...I was newly married & 3 days out from being covered on my spouse's insurance. I was a collega graduate, but actually made wayyy more money doing NAILS! Anyways, I fell and broke my wrist. Well off to the hospital I go....newly married, hardly no money, with an uneployment period ahead of me.

Did the hospital care? Nope! Did I pay the bill? YEP!

Once you stop justifying things with your bleeding heart & see them for fact, we'll be able to have a better conversation.

lisa --> <--steve

Edited July 30, 2006 by charlesandnessa

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

given that, we could make excuses for the poor person that robs a bank. or sells crack...

no dice, steve. keep trying.

No because those crimes involve victims. That's the difference.

Illegal labor and the often corresponding identity theft has victims, too. Talk to those that lost their identity or livelihood to illegal labor - there's millions of victims right there for you. Gotta do better than that, bro!

I was hired along with many of these hispanic workers - we all had to present the federal requirement of two forms of identification. Several weeks later, the INS van showed up and cleaned out the whole kitchen crew. ... They weren't using someone else's ss# or identity. From what I gathered, they had bogus cards. ... It's a complicated issue.

The person that happens to have the same SSN as the one that shows on the bogus card, my friend, is a victim of identity theft. Should that person show up to file for benefits while the SSA collects contributions from "them" (from the identity thief, really), the SSA will deny the claim as the claimant is apparently doing fine working and paying into the system.

It's not complicated: It's identity theft and there are real, actual victims.

Here's something worth noting...

What's worth noting? That some people will try their best portraying the perps as the victims? That may be working on you but it sure ain't working on me.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Why is a dire Mexico situation more important than any other nation's dire problem?

That's an incredibly ignorant thing to say - they are our neighbors in the south and we are in contractual partnership (NAFTA) with both Canada and Mexico. We can bicker back and forth all day about whether illegals are the villians her but like I pointed out, you are part of the problem rather than any real solution. So keep ignoring the fact that you continue to support a system that keeps illegal workers here.

As for solutions...

Supply-and-demand solutions

- David Sirota

AMID ALL the rhetoric in the superheated immigration debate, many have forgotten the key question: Why?

Why do so many Mexicans want to come to America in the first place? The answers to this question revolve around the concept of supply and demand -- and they tell us about how to address illegal immigration and overcome the core economic challenges facing middle-class Americans.

Fact: Many Mexicans are willing to risk their lives to enter the United States illegally because they are desperate to find a better life. In supply-and-demand terms, the supply of jobs in Mexico that one can subsist on is far less than the demand for such jobs.

But that raises the next and deeper "why" question: Why is the supply of decent-paying jobs in Mexico so low? Therein lies an issue neither Democrats nor Republicans want to address, because it touches on public policies both have supported.

Fact: Both political parties have joined hands in recent years to ink trade pacts that have destroyed the Mexican economy and created a supply-and-demand imbalance there. The biggest of these was the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) -- a pact sold to the American people as a job creator here, and an economic development tool for Mexico. But, of course, the pact did not include any provisions to protect or increase Mexican workers' wages, workplace standards or human rights, thus all it did was open up a cheap labor pool for companies to exploit.

Fact: A decade after NAFTA's passage, America is still hemorrhaging the good-paying jobs that NAFTA was supposed to create. As for Mexico, the Washington Post's report on the 10-year anniversary of NAFTA told the story: 19 million more Mexicans now live in poverty than before the pact was signed. Similarly, former U.S. Labor Secretary Robert Reich points out, "Mexico's real wages are lower than they were before [NAFTA]." And because NAFTA included no provisions to force companies to improve Mexican working conditions, jobs that were created in Mexico still pay near-slave wages For instance, the Associated Press noted this week that "Many young [Mexicans] have manual jobs on minimum wage of $5 a day."

Time Magazine recently shed further light on the situation, reporting that , "Even when new jobs do appear, [Mexico's] unforgiving low-wage business culture -- the dark shame of Mexico's political and economic leaders, which NAFTA was also supposed to reform -- makes sure that they still often pay in a day what similar work would pay in an hour in the United States."

Not surprisingly, Mexican workers' demand for a better life hasn't gone away -- in economic terms, the demand is inelastic. And so that demand is looking for a job supply north of the border.

This is the supply-and-demand reality that no amount of emotional rhetoric can change -- and in that reality we can find the way to address illegal immigration: by stopping the demand instead of trying to block the supply. The Academy Award-winning movie, "Traffic," highlighted the perils of waging a drug war that only focuses on trying to block the supply of narcotics, rather than on eliminating the demand for them.

These same lessons can be applied to illegal immigration. The best way to stop illegal entry into our country from Mexico is to tamp down the demand by Mexicans to enter this country illegally. After all, no wall, no fence, no border security measure can be as effective as reducing the demand for entry. This means reforming our trade policy to include serious wage, workplace and human-rights provisions so that cross-border commerce actually improves the lives of Mexican workers to the point where they no longer feel the dire economic need to break our immigration laws.

Think about it this way: Had NAFTA lifted 19 million Mexicans out of poverty as promised instead of helping to drive 19 million Mexicans into poverty, you can bet the flood of illegal immigrants across our southern border would be a trickle instead of the flood it is today. To be sure, politicians are talking about amnesty or guest-worker programs to give workers some kind of legal status. But if those proposals do not come hand-in-hand with a reform of America's trade policies, they are destined to be what they have been in the past -- merely short-term, stopgap measures, not real solutions.

Until America's political leaders start making trade policy address the imbalance between the demand for good jobs and the supply of good jobs in Mexico, illegal immigration will continue to be a major problem right here at home.

[Fandango 1,440]

And *I'm* the ginsu one *lol*

[Laura_and_IanM 0]

Whether or not Mexicans or Canadians are our neighbours or not, that does not give them the right to come to our country illegally and take OUR JOBS...POINT BLANK!!! How many times are we going to just let them keep coming in and taking what is rightfully ours??? If they want in so bad, then let them do it the right way. Also, I guess people like me who can't even take care of their own children because of lack of jobs due to immigrants taking them is not a big deal to you right? I have been turned down jobs to even flip burgers because I have managerial experience there for no one wants to pay me the "extra little bit" for what I am worth..they rather pay minumum wage to illegals. How sad is that??? Honestly, I really had to think for months and months whether or not I should fight for custodial custody of my children. In the end I had to put my hands down and declare defeat. HOW FAIR IS THAT???? A 30 something year old woman being turned down for a job due to being over qualified...meanwhile the illegals are sat there snickering away. SCREW THAT! They have the nerve to come here for a better life...yet where is my chance at a better life?? A life with my children where they are with me...where I can tuck them in at night? Where I can be the one getting them ready for school in the morning??? Where I can bake them cookies and have them ready when they get home from school??? Why should I have to suffer and my children have to suffer??? Yeah, it was my choice to divorce my husband...but that is irrelevant to the topic. Do you know how hard it is Steven? Not being able to tuck my kids in, or read them bedtime stories? All because I had to give up in the end after over a year of looking for employment??? Stop ###### making things sound better for your own agenda and wake the ###### UP AND LOOK AT THE TRUTH!!! You can tell MY CHILDREN AND ANYONE ELSE WHO IS IN THE SAME POSITION AS ME THAT THINGS WILL BE OK...THAT THE ILLEGALS DESERVE IT BECAUSE THEY HAVE IT HARDER IN THEIR OWN COUNTRY...GOD ignorance must really be bliss...I can't believe that you are defending it..nonviolent?? Doesn't matter if it is nonviolent...ITS STILL A GOD DAMN CRIME!!!! FRAUD FRAUD FRAUD!!!! Yes I am emotional over this, but I have every right to be...my story PROVES THAT I HAVE A RIGHT TO BE EMOTIONAL...ME ALONG WITH SO MANY OTHERS THAT ARE IN THE SAME POSITION IF NOT SIMILAR!!!

I am done here...I don't think anyone can get through to you.

[pedroh 21]

Whether or not Mexicans or Canadians are our neighbours or not, that does not give them the right to come to our country illegally and take OUR JOBS...POINT BLANK!!! How many times are we going to just let them keep coming in and taking what is rightfully ours??? If they want in so bad, then let them do it the right way. Also, I guess people like me who can't even take care of their own children because of lack of jobs due to immigrants taking them is not a big deal to you right? I have been turned down jobs to even flip burgers because I have managerial experience there for no one wants to pay me the "extra little bit" for what I am worth..they rather pay minumum wage to illegals. How sad is that??? Honestly, I really had to think for months and months whether or not I should fight for custodial custody of my children. In the end I had to put my hands down and declare defeat. HOW FAIR IS THAT???? A 30 something year old woman being turned down for a job due to being over qualified...meanwhile the illegals are sat there snickering away. SCREW THAT! They have the nerve to come here for a better life...yet where is my chance at a better life?? A life with my children where they are with me...where I can tuck them in at night? Where I can be the one getting them ready for school in the morning??? Where I can bake them cookies and have them ready when they get home from school??? Why should I have to suffer and my children have to suffer??? Yeah, it was my choice to divorce my husband...but that is irrelevant to the topic. Do you know how hard it is Steven? Not being able to tuck my kids in, or read them bedtime stories? All because I had to give up in the end after over a year of looking for employment??? Stop ###### making things sound better for your own agenda and wake the ###### UP AND LOOK AT THE TRUTH!!! You can tell MY CHILDREN AND ANYONE ELSE WHO IS IN THE SAME POSITION AS ME THAT THINGS WILL BE OK...THAT THE ILLEGALS DESERVE IT BECAUSE THEY HAVE IT HARDER IN THEIR OWN COUNTRY...GOD ignorance must really be bliss...I can't believe that you are defending it..nonviolent?? Doesn't matter if it is nonviolent...ITS STILL A GOD DAMN CRIME!!!! FRAUD FRAUD FRAUD!!!! Yes I am emotional over this, but I have every right to be...my story PROVES THAT I HAVE A RIGHT TO BE EMOTIONAL...ME ALONG WITH SO MANY OTHERS THAT ARE IN THE SAME POSITION IF NOT SIMILAR!!!

I am done here...I don't think anyone can get through to you.

are you gonna apply for the same jobs as illegals? kitchen crew, cleaning crew, or agricultural crew? if that is the case, yeah.. illegals are taking away your right to get a job.. but if that's not the case, I don't see the relationship... u know, I see this a lot.. but I also see VJ is full of IT engineers, people that work in banks, law offices, the government.. I don't see any lawnmower-services people, cleaning crew, people that pick tobbacco, cotton or fruit... so.. again.. I still know that they are here illegaly, but.. I don't see a direct relationship with illegals and takin away the jobs of the people around this forum.. and I don't think it will happen

you know now who's selling the id's? which by the way aren't fake.. the puertoricans.. in my case.. well, not mine, this area case.. they come to work for a couple of years.. they go back to Puerto Rico, to get some extra cash, bam, they sell their ID's for $1500-$2500 bucks.. so from time to time you see a lotta guys that were born in Puerto Rico, and funnily they don't have a boricua accent.. lawl.. so.. what about that? how can you control that? and that's not stealing noones id's.. they are selling it

Edited July 30, 2006 by pedroh