Here's a fact you don't hear much about: Between a third and a half of the nation's illegal immigrants - at least 3.8 million people - entered the USA

[one...two...tree 2,762]

The fact that many of them are overstays does not make their presence here any less illegal.

It's illegal to drive over the posted speed limit, but most people do it and for the most part it's not a big deal insofar as we don't label speeders as criminals. In the heated debate over illegal immigrants the claim that they are 'criminals' because they are here illegally is intellectually dishonest. If the only criteria for labelling someone a criminal is for them to break a law (any law) then most of us here would fit in that category.

You gotta work on your argument a little more. Breaking any law doesn't make one a criminal. Some infractions are deemed misdemeanors (not crimes) while others are felonies (crimes). Depends on the severety of the offense which category an infraction falls into. Many of the infractions that typically go along with an unauthorized entry into and/or presence in this country are felonies - for starters: falsifying government documents, tax evasion (you gotta do at least one of these if you live and work here illegally). Thus, many (or dare I say most) of those here illegally are actually criminals.

It's the connotation 'criminal' that is not intellectually honest. Whether you can say that technically speaking, being here without a visa is a felony shouldn't carry the same label as who we deem 'criminal'. It's symantecs but important nonetheless because by using the term criminal implies that we have 11 million felons roaming about as if they are a danger and detriment to society which is utter nonesense. When people talk about illegal drugs, they talk about it being a victimless crime. Most of the illegal immigrants are here not to wreak havoc but for economic reasons. In my opinion, it's a victimless crime and doesn't deserve them to be labeled as criminal.

[Marc and Olga 0]

The fact that many of them are overstays does not make their presence here any less illegal.

It's illegal to drive over the posted speed limit, but most people do it and for the most part it's not a big deal insofar as we don't label speeders as criminals. In the heated debate over illegal immigrants the claim that they are 'criminals' because they are here illegally is intellectually dishonest. If the only criteria for labelling someone a criminal is for them to break a law (any law) then most of us here would fit in that category.

You gotta work on your argument a little more. Breaking any law doesn't make one a criminal. Some infractions are deemed misdemeanors (not crimes) while others are felonies (crimes). Depends on the severety of the offense which category an infraction falls into. Many of the infractions that typically go along with an unauthorized entry into and/or presence in this country are felonies - for starters: falsifying government documents, tax evasion (you gotta do at least one of these if you live and work here illegally). Thus, many (or dare I say most) of those here illegally are actually criminals.

This line:

Thus, many (or dare I say most) of those here illegally are actually criminals.

SHOULD probably read:

Thus, many (or dare I say most) of those here illegally are actually FELONS.

Which I 100% agree! I admit, when I do speed (knowingly or not!) I am willing to accept the consequences, pay my fine and move on...the whole protesting going on is the ILLEGAL immigrants way to say "I'm a criminal but I DO NOT accept the consequences." Which, in my book, is just plan crazy!

And makes us look like this little guy here ~~~>

I am not absolutely certain what classifies as a felony, I know speeding on a military base IS considered a felony! So I would think that entering the USA without authorization would ALSO classify as a Felony as well as overstaying a visa!

Edited July 29, 2006 by Marc and Olga

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Literature? wot's that?

Did you ever make it to the end of this book?

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

This line:

Thus, many (or dare I say most) of those here illegally are actually criminals.

SHOULD probably read:

Thus, many (or dare I say most) of those here illegally are actually FELONS.

What, exactly, is the difference between a felon and a criminal?

[Ban Hammer 13,345]

It's the connotation 'criminal' that is not intellectually honest. Whether you can say that technically speaking, being here without a visa is a felony shouldn't carry the same label as who we deem 'criminal'. It's symantecs but important nonetheless because by using the term criminal implies that we have 11 million felons roaming about as if they are a danger and detriment to society which is utter nonesense. When people talk about illegal drugs, they talk about it being a victimless crime. Most of the illegal immigrants are here not to wreak havoc but for economic reasons. In my opinion, it's a victimless crime and doesn't deserve them to be labeled as criminal.

fact is, it's a criminal act. and yes, these 11 or more million (i've heard 12 million+) roaming around are a danger. one point to consider is this statement of yours:

"Most of the illegal immigrants are here not to wreak havoc but for economic reasons."

now, how do you suppose they get a job? identity theft........ happens more often than you know. and if you've ever been a victim of identity theft you'll know that such is not an easy fix. and have you really researched how many that get caught happen to have a criminal background other than just being illegal? i do remember seeing an operation on the news where about 1/3 of those that were caught were wanted for felony class crimes that did not include just being here.......

now maybe you're all pie in the sky and don't realize that the illegals happen to be draining our economy either. check out that hospital in LA that had to close in the past year. why? because so many illegals owed it money and didn't pay. and LA is not just the only hospital dealing with that issue. many of them are. and you probably complain about health care eh? you the taxpayer get to make up for what the illegals don't pay....

you could also look into how much money is sent out of the usa to those other countries. that's money that is not being spent here, increasing our economy. nope, it's in another country helping build up that country.

ergo, your statement of them being here hurting no one is false. i don't care what reason they are here for, it's wrong.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

This line:

Thus, many (or dare I say most) of those here illegally are actually criminals.

SHOULD probably read:

Thus, many (or dare I say most) of those here illegally are actually FELONS.

Which I 100% agree! I admit, when I do speed (knowingly or not!) I am willing to accept the consequences, pay my fine and move on...the whole protesting going on is the ILLEGAL immigrants way to say "I'm a criminal but I DO NOT accept the consequences." Which, in my book, is just plan crazy!

And makes us look like this little guy here ~~~>

I am not absolutely certain what classifies as a felony, I know speeding on a military base IS considered a felony! So I would think that entering the USA without authorization would ALSO classify as a Felony as well as overstaying a visa!

With regard to the illegals who have crossed over the southern border it is much more complicated than that. You can't ignore the history between the U.S. and Mexico, and why so many will risk their lives across treacherous conditions to make it here. We've pretty much turned a blind eye to them for so many years and then after 9/11 Americans started getting skiddish about security, thinking that securing our borders will make us more safe from any future 9/11 attack. Illegal immigrants crossing the border is not a new phenomenon so we need to ask are there any new problems with it that didn't exist before? How is that American companies can move to the south of the border to use cheap labor, avoid environmental and labor laws and in effect, operate within the law, but the poor Mexican who faces perpetual poverty if they stay in Mexico or risks his/her life by crossing the border illegally for a better life is the criminal?

[Ban Hammer 13,345]

This line:

Thus, many (or dare I say most) of those here illegally are actually criminals.

SHOULD probably read:

Thus, many (or dare I say most) of those here illegally are actually FELONS.

Which I 100% agree! I admit, when I do speed (knowingly or not!) I am willing to accept the consequences, pay my fine and move on...the whole protesting going on is the ILLEGAL immigrants way to say "I'm a criminal but I DO NOT accept the consequences." Which, in my book, is just plan crazy!

And makes us look like this little guy here ~~~>

I am not absolutely certain what classifies as a felony, I know speeding on a military base IS considered a felony! So I would think that entering the USA without authorization would ALSO classify as a Felony as well as overstaying a visa!

With regard to the illegals who have crossed over the southern border it is much more complicated than that. You can't ignore the history between the U.S. and Mexico, and why so many will risk their lives across treacherous conditions to make it here. We've pretty much turned a blind eye to them for so many years and then after 9/11 Americans started getting skiddish about security, thinking that securing our borders will make us more safe from any future 9/11 attack. Illegal immigrants crossing the border is not a new phenomenon so we need to ask are there any new problems with it that didn't exist before? How is that American companies can move to the south of the border to use cheap labor, avoid environmental and labor laws and in effect, operate within the law, but the poor Mexican who faces perpetual poverty if they stay in Mexico or risks his/her life by crossing the border illegally for a better life is the criminal?

given that, we could make excuses for the poor person that robs a bank. or sells crack...

no dice, steve. keep trying.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

It's the connotation 'criminal' that is not intellectually honest. Whether you can say that technically speaking, being here without a visa is a felony shouldn't carry the same label as who we deem 'criminal'. It's symantecs but important nonetheless because by using the term criminal implies that we have 11 million felons roaming about as if they are a danger and detriment to society which is utter nonesense. When people talk about illegal drugs, they talk about it being a victimless crime. Most of the illegal immigrants are here not to wreak havoc but for economic reasons. In my opinion, it's a victimless crime and doesn't deserve them to be labeled as criminal.

fact is, it's a criminal act. and yes, these 11 or more million (i've heard 12 million+) roaming around are a danger. one point to consider is this statement of yours:

"Most of the illegal immigrants are here not to wreak havoc but for economic reasons."

now, how do you suppose they get a job? identity theft........ happens more often than you know. and if you've ever been a victim of identity theft you'll know that such is not an easy fix. and have you really researched how many that get caught happen to have a criminal background other than just being illegal? i do remember seeing an operation on the news where about 1/3 of those that were caught were wanted for felony class crimes that did not include just being here.......

now maybe you're all pie in the sky and don't realize that the illegals happen to be draining our economy either. check out that hospital in LA that had to close in the past year. why? because so many illegals owed it money and didn't pay. and LA is not just the only hospital dealing with that issue. many of them are. and you probably complain about health care eh? you the taxpayer get to make up for what the illegals don't pay....

you could also look into how much money is sent out of the usa to those other countries. that's money that is not being spent here, increasing our economy. nope, it's in another country helping build up that country.

ergo, your statement of them being here hurting no one is false. i don't care what reason they are here for, it's wrong.

Charles, for those who have a criminal background - deport their arses. But for those who maintained gainful employment and have otherwise stayed within the law, don't villianize them. I'm not advocating that we just open our borders - I recognize that it is a problem, but there are many culprits to the problem, least of which are the majority of illegals who are just trying to make a better life for themselves.

One solution I've heard is to have a national registry for employers. When a new hire gives them a ss#, the employer can enter that the name and number to check if it is legitimate. Right now, the ones who seem to benefit the most from the cheap and abundant labor are the employers. Americans upset over illegal immigration do not focus enough of their concern with employers and that seems odd.

given that, we could make excuses for the poor person that robs a bank. or sells crack...

no dice, steve. keep trying.

No because those crimes involve victims. That's the difference.

[Ban Hammer 13,345]

Charles, for those who have a criminal background - deport their arses. But for those who maintained gainful employment and have otherwise stayed within the law, don't villianize them. I'm not advocating that we just open our borders - I recognize that it is a problem, but there are many culprits to the problem, least of which are the majority of illegals who are just trying to make a better life for themselves.

One solution I've heard is to have a national registry for employers. When a new hire gives them a ss#, the employer can enter that the name and number to check if it is legitimate. Right now, the ones who seem to benefit the most from the cheap and abundant labor are the employers. Americans upset over illegal immigration do not focus enough of their concern with employers and that seems odd.

that's the solution, add more work to our overburdened police checking them all out

and yes, you are advocating opening our borders. removing the felony charge of illegally being here encourages more immigration. "hey the gringos will let us stay just don't rob anything"

if someone wanted to put a fine on an employer of say $10,000 per illegal that would probably solve a lot of our problems.

but while you are talking about allowing them to stay, they get exploited by the employers for cheap labor. don't sound like all that good a deal either way. send them home, institute the guest worker visa.

given that, we could make excuses for the poor person that robs a bank. or sells crack...

no dice, steve. keep trying.

No because those crimes involve victims. That's the difference.

then such applies. the entire usa is a victim.

[Heracles 417]

With regard to the illegals who have crossed over the southern border it is much more complicated than that. You can't ignore the history between the U.S. and Mexico, and why so many will risk their lives across treacherous conditions to make it here. We've pretty much turned a blind eye to them for so many years and then after 9/11 Americans started getting skiddish about security, thinking that securing our borders will make us more safe from any future 9/11 attack. Illegal immigrants crossing the border is not a new phenomenon so we need to ask are there any new problems with it that didn't exist before? How is that American companies can move to the south of the border to use cheap labor, avoid environmental and labor laws and in effect, operate within the law, but the poor Mexican who faces perpetual poverty if they stay in Mexico or risks his/her life by crossing the border illegally for a better life is the criminal?

Securing the borders will take one avenue away for the terrorists. Second point, considering the 'high' level of existing poverty in the US, it is plain stupid to allow more poor people in the US.

You mentioned pre 9/11. Well women didn't have equal rights until what 40 years ago, but I guess we should have done nothing to rectify that since for over 10,000 years most women did not have equal rights.

PS. In most developed nations around the world illegal immigrants are forcefully round up and held in detention centers, until they are either deported or allowed to stay in the country..

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

given that, we could make excuses for the poor person that robs a bank. or sells crack...

no dice, steve. keep trying.

No because those crimes involve victims. That's the difference.

Illegal labor and the often corresponding identity theft has victims, too. Talk to those that lost their identity or livelihood to illegal labor - there's millions of victims right there for you. Gotta do better than that, bro!

Edited July 30, 2006 by ET-US2004

[one...two...tree 2,762]

given that, we could make excuses for the poor person that robs a bank. or sells crack...

no dice, steve. keep trying.

No because those crimes involve victims. That's the difference.

Illegal labor and the often corresponding identity theft has victims, too. Talk to those that lost their identity or livelihood to illegal labor - there's millions of victims right there for you. Gotta do better than that, bro!

I took a busing job at an Olive Garden in Flagstaff, AZ after my first year in art school. I was the only guido busing tables - the kitchen crew got a kick out of that. Anyhow, I was hired along with many of these hispanic workers - we all had to present the federal requirement of two forms of identification. Several weeks later, the INS van showed up and cleaned out the whole kitchen crew. We lost everyone. The INS ended up having to release them and these guys moved on to another restaurant - and so the cycle continues. These guys were hard working, good people - not villians. They just wanted a job. They weren't using someone else's ss# or identity. From what I gathered, they had bogus cards. These guys never file with the IRS and so all those deductions from their checks (Social Security, Fed and State Taxes) are never reclaimed. It's a complicated issue. Who's the real criminal here? I remember my manager having to work in the kitchen struggling to find replacements. We have a job market and an economy that not only supports illegals working, but thrives from it. The system is broken and has been for a long time. We can argue symantecs until we're blue in the face but I stand behind my argument that they are not criminals in the conventional sense of the word and those who keep painting them as such are showing bigotry. Where's the outcry over white collar criminals? Why aren't we marching to Washington to make sure guys like Kenneth Lay don't bilk us? I agree that we need to fix the system with regard to illegal immigrants but the focus and anger towards the actual illegals is lopsided.

[Fandango 1,439]

given that, we could make excuses for the poor person that robs a bank. or sells crack...

no dice, steve. keep trying.

No because those crimes involve victims. That's the difference.

Illegal labor and the often corresponding identity theft has victims, too. Talk to those that lost their identity or livelihood to illegal labor - there's millions of victims right there for you. Gotta do better than that, bro!

I took a busing job at an Olive Garden in Flagstaff, AZ after my first year in art school. I was the only guido busing tables - the kitchen crew got a kick out of that. Anyhow, I was hired along with many of these hispanic workers - we all had to present the federal requirement of two forms of identification. Several weeks later, the INS van showed up and cleaned out the whole kitchen crew. We lost everyone. The INS ended up having to release them and these guys moved on to another restaurant - and so the cycle continues. These guys were hard working, good people - not villians. They just wanted a job. They weren't using someone else's ss# or identity. From what I gathered, they had bogus cards. These guys never file with the IRS and so all those deductions from their checks (Social Security, Fed and State Taxes) are never reclaimed. It's a complicated issue. Who's the real criminal here? I remember my manager having to work in the kitchen struggling to find replacements. We have a job market and an economy that not only supports illegals working, but thrives from it. The system is broken and has been for a long time. We can argue symantecs until we're blue in the face but I stand behind my argument that they are not criminals in the conventional sense of the word and those who keep painting them as such are showing bigotry. Where's the outcry over white collar criminals? Why aren't we marching to Washington to make sure guys like Kenneth Lay don't bilk us? I agree that we need to fix the system with regard to illegal immigrants but the focus and anger towards the actual illegals is lopsided.

'hey the system thrives from illegals, therefore it must be ok'

niiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiice logic there.

Steven....since you're so gung ho for illegals...why not donate half your salary to them? Sponsor someone from a poorer country to come here...after all they have the right to a nice life. Put them up in your house.

Oh waiiit....you only play fast and loose with everyone else's money....I get it now!

See, if you walked the walk, then I really can't complain...but you sit there on that ever so high horse and spout nonsense about 'victimless crimes' when in fact it is simply not so. But since it doesn't affect YOU personally, it doesn't matter, does it?

[one...two...tree 2,762]

given that, we could make excuses for the poor person that robs a bank. or sells crack...

no dice, steve. keep trying.

No because those crimes involve victims. That's the difference.

Illegal labor and the often corresponding identity theft has victims, too. Talk to those that lost their identity or livelihood to illegal labor - there's millions of victims right there for you. Gotta do better than that, bro!

I took a busing job at an Olive Garden in Flagstaff, AZ after my first year in art school. I was the only guido busing tables - the kitchen crew got a kick out of that. Anyhow, I was hired along with many of these hispanic workers - we all had to present the federal requirement of two forms of identification. Several weeks later, the INS van showed up and cleaned out the whole kitchen crew. We lost everyone. The INS ended up having to release them and these guys moved on to another restaurant - and so the cycle continues. These guys were hard working, good people - not villians. They just wanted a job. They weren't using someone else's ss# or identity. From what I gathered, they had bogus cards. These guys never file with the IRS and so all those deductions from their checks (Social Security, Fed and State Taxes) are never reclaimed. It's a complicated issue. Who's the real criminal here? I remember my manager having to work in the kitchen struggling to find replacements. We have a job market and an economy that not only supports illegals working, but thrives from it. The system is broken and has been for a long time. We can argue symantecs until we're blue in the face but I stand behind my argument that they are not criminals in the conventional sense of the word and those who keep painting them as such are showing bigotry. Where's the outcry over white collar criminals? Why aren't we marching to Washington to make sure guys like Kenneth Lay don't bilk us? I agree that we need to fix the system with regard to illegal immigrants but the focus and anger towards the actual illegals is lopsided.

'hey the system thrives from illegals, therefore it must be ok'

niiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiice logic there.

Steven....since you're so gung ho for illegals...why not donate half your salary to them? Sponsor someone from a poorer country to come here...after all they have the right to a nice life. Put them up in your house.

Oh waiiit....you only play fast and loose with everyone else's money....I get it now!

See, if you walked the walk, then I really can't complain...but you sit there on that ever so high horse and spout nonsense about 'victimless crimes' when in fact it is simply not so. But since it doesn't affect YOU personally, it doesn't matter, does it?

You, me and most every American is supporting the system which enables illegal aliens to work here whether you care to admit it or not. So the same could be said about you, Miss Ginsu - put your money where your mouth is and stop shopping at places who hire illegals. How about your employer? Who cleans the office at night? Why aren't you protesting about that? You seemed to have overlooked that I said it is a broken system that needs fixing, but the focus is way lopsided towards the illegals rather than all the other factors that come into play.

Here, you can start by boycotting Walmart for hiring illegals:

http://www.alipac.us/modules.php?name=Surv...s&pollID=35

[Lewis 0]

Charles, for those who have a criminal background - deport their arses. But for those who maintained gainful employment and have otherwise stayed within the law, don't villianize them. I'm not advocating that we just open our borders - I recognize that it is a problem, but there are many culprits to the problem, least of which are the majority of illegals who are just trying to make a better life for themselves.

One solution I've heard is to have a national registry for employers. When a new hire gives them a ss#, the employer can enter that the name and number to check if it is legitimate. Right now, the ones who seem to benefit the most from the cheap and abundant labor are the employers. Americans upset over illegal immigration do not focus enough of their concern with employers and that seems odd.

that's the solution, add more work to our overburdened police checking them all out

and yes, you are advocating opening our borders. removing the felony charge of illegally being here encourages more immigration. "hey the gringos will let us stay just don't rob anything"

if someone wanted to put a fine on an employer of say $10,000 per illegal that would probably solve a lot of our problems.

but while you are talking about allowing them to stay, they get exploited by the employers for cheap labor. don't sound like all that good a deal either way. send them home, institute the guest worker visa.

given that, we could make excuses for the poor person that robs a bank. or sells crack...

no dice, steve. keep trying.

No because those crimes involve victims. That's the difference.

then such applies. the entire usa is a victim.

After I read this thread about the multi faceted problem the US faces right now, it appears that a big piece missing in the solution is to effectively punish employers that hire illegals. The problem with it is that many of the companies that will be affected may have influence with our legislators. We would most likely hear major whining if employers were actually fined on a regular basis but IMO the market would eventually correct itself. It also means many of our consumable items would have a price increase. It makes sense because it removes the biggest incentive for the illegals to stay. I have heard about many proposals like building a very expensive fence, helping other nations create jobs, and deporting millions of illegals. All of these ideas will take massive amounts $$$$$$$$$$$ resources either way. The facts are that it seems that nothing is being done to effectively and efficiently tackle the problem that was created years ago and ignored and now we need to solve it together.