Interesting Article

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

My point is a simple one. If we follow the rules of civilized people the terrorists will strike again and cause millions of deaths. If we play by their rules we can stop them. So I guess the choice we have is to live or die. We can't have it both ways. Like it or not we live in a world that rouge nations like Iran will have nukes. There is no doubt that they will give it to someone that will have no problem setting it off where it will do the most harm. Like I said, we have the choice to live or die. I choose to live.

The misuse of human rights, "playing by their rules" as you put it, provides no guarantee of that whatsoever.

It's not about the lore of the jungle. Whether or not we abuse or torture terrorist suspects will not necessarily lead to more arrests, or foil any plots.

Its a simple question really, why should terrorists be allowed to change the way you or I live our lives? Is that not their goal to begin with?

Edited May 3, 2006 by Fishdude

[GaryC 7]

It may not guarantee that it will foil a plot but treating them with normal human rights guarantees our failure. The price is to high. We need to stop them.

What use is our moral authority if we are dead? Do you think that they will treat us with "human rights" if they win and convert the world to radical islam? What good is our moral authority then?

Edited May 3, 2006 by GaryC

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

It may not guarantee that it will foil a plot but treating them with normal human rights guarantees our failure.

Why?

What use is our moral authority if we are dead? Do you think that they will treat us with "human rights" if they win and convert the world to radical islam? What good is our moral authority then?

Why do you think adhering to human rights legislation that exists for the benefit protection of all human beings, yourself included, will result in our deaths? Noone's saying that we should stop prosecuting and punishing convicted terrorists to the full extent of the law.

Edited May 3, 2006 by Fishdude

[GaryC 7]

Let me say something else here. I am not talking about massive round-ups of people and indiscrimantate tourture fishing for plots. If you look at my original statement I made it clear that I only advocated it if we KNEW we had a terrorist. (ie. caught in the act or had positive proof) And still I don't think we should tourture him just for the fun of it. But if he had knowledge of an attack and he won't tell then by all means get out the blow torch and pliers!!!!

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Let me say something else here. I am not talking about massive round-ups of people and indiscrimantate tourture fishing for plots. If you look at my original statement I made it clear that I only advocated it if we KNEW we had a terrorist. (ie. caught in the act or had positive proof) And still I don't think we should tourture him just for the fun of it. But if he had knowledge of an attack and he won't tell then by all means get out the blow torch and pliers!!!!

I never said you did, I asked why you think this is so essential to preventing future terror attacks.

Why does adhering to human rights legislation "guarantee failure"?

[GaryC 7]

It may not guarantee that it will foil a plot but treating them with normal human rights guarantees our failure.

Why?

What use is our moral authority if we are dead? Do you think that they will treat us with "human rights" if they win and convert the world to radical islam? What good is our moral authority then?

Why do you think adhering to human rights legislation that exists for the benefit protection of all human beings, yourself included, will result in our deaths? Noone's saying that we should stop prosecuting and punishing convicted terrorists to the full extent of the law.

Look at this lunatic that we have on trial right now. Sorry I can't remember his name right now. He knew that 9/11 was coming. But because of his "rights" he sat in jail, said nothing and 2000 people died. Granted we had no reason to suspect that he had knowledge of it before hand. But if we thought there was an attack coming and we thought he had knowledge that could stop it would you still sit there and say "oh we can't hurt him" and let 2000 people die? Do you think he would have willingly told us everything he knew? What would you say to the families of the dead? "Sorry your daddies dead but at least we didn't harm his killers rights"?

Edited May 3, 2006 by GaryC

[Jaylen Brit 0]

Totally understand why you feel this way - but remember even thru torture there is no guarantee that you will get the info you are looking for. And torture can sometimes inflame those who support terrorism to commit more and more outrageous acts as 'piunishment'

You are trying to apply logic to people woho are fanatics - they don't think the way you or I do, so you cannot hope to win arguments with them. They are fanatics - they are not thinking with their heads for the most part.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

It may not guarantee that it will foil a plot but treating them with normal human rights guarantees our failure.

Why?

What use is our moral authority if we are dead? Do you think that they will treat us with "human rights" if they win and convert the world to radical islam? What good is our moral authority then?

Why do you think adhering to human rights legislation that exists for the benefit protection of all human beings, yourself included, will result in our deaths? Noone's saying that we should stop prosecuting and punishing convicted terrorists to the full extent of the law.

Look at this lunatic that we have on trial right now. Sorry I can't remember his name right now. He knew that 9/11 was coming. But because of his "rights" he sat in jail, said nothing and 2000 people died. Granted we had no reason to suspect that he had knowledge of it before hand but if we thought there was an attack coming and we thought he had knowledge that could stop it would you still sit there and say "oh we can't hurt him" and let 2000 people die? What would you say to the families of the dead? "Sorry your daddies dead but at least we didn't harm his killers rights"?

You mean Zacarias Moussaoi. Unlike the latest series of '24', No I don't think torture is justified on any level. For one thing, I don't believe it yields useful results.

[GaryC 7]

Totally understand why you feel this way - but remember even thru torture there is no guarantee that you will get the info you are looking for. And torture can sometimes inflame those who support terrorism to commit more and more outrageous acts as 'piunishment'

You are trying to apply logic to people woho are fanatics - they don't think the way you or I do, so you cannot hope to win arguments with them. They are fanatics - they are not thinking with their heads for the most part.

I agree, it is no guarentee that we will get what we want. But it is sure that they will not tell us if we ask nicely. I don't want to win arguments with them. I know it is useless to try to reason with them. That is my point. The only way to deal with them is to kill them before they kill us. And I am not at all worried that torturing a few of them will inflame them to punish us more. They are already doing everything they can to get to us. They can't be inflamed more.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Totally understand why you feel this way - but remember even thru torture there is no guarantee that you will get the info you are looking for. And torture can sometimes inflame those who support terrorism to commit more and more outrageous acts as 'piunishment'

You are trying to apply logic to people woho are fanatics - they don't think the way you or I do, so you cannot hope to win arguments with them. They are fanatics - they are not thinking with their heads for the most part.

I agree, it is no guarentee that we will get what we want. But it is sure that they will not tell us if we ask nicely. I don't want to win arguments with them. I know it is useless to try to reason with them. That is my point. The only way to deal with them is to kill them before they kill us. And I am not at all worried that torturing a few of them will inflame them to punish us more. They are already doing everything they can to get to us. They can't be inflamed more.

I don't know - Iraq has done a pretty good job of that, and things in Iran aren't much better.

In any case, the psychology of someone who is prepared to blow themselve up with a bomb-belt or fly a hijacked plane into a building to support their fanatic cause, probably isn't going to be too phased by torture.

Edited May 3, 2006 by Fishdude

[GaryC 7]

You mean Zacarias Moussaoi. Unlike the latest series of '24', No I don't think torture is justified on any level. For one thing, I don't believe it yields useful results.

There are ways other than the medieval pulling the fingernails out that do work. Truth drugs for one. Plus, everyone has a breaking point. If you inflict enough mental and physical pain on them they will talk. Please keep in mind I only advocate this if we knew we had a terrorist and we knew he had info about a pending attack. This is only for a very limited scope of things. I am not a barbarian.

I don't know - Iraq has done a pretty good job of that, and things in Iran aren't much better.

In any case, the psychology of someone who is prepared to blow themselve up with a bomb-belt or fly a hijacked plane into a building to support their fanatic cause, probably isn't going to be too phased by torture.

These guys are prepared for a brief moment of pain to blow themselves up. But when it is spread over hours or days they will crack.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

You mean Zacarias Moussaoi. Unlike the latest series of '24', No I don't think torture is justified on any level. For one thing, I don't believe it yields useful results.

There are ways other than the medieval pulling the fingernails out that do work. Truth drugs for one. Plus, everyone has a breaking point. If you inflict enough mental and physical pain on them they will talk. Please keep in mind I only advocate this if we knew we had a terrorist and we knew he had info about a pending attack. This is only for a very limited scope of things. I am not a barbarian.

I don't know - Iraq has done a pretty good job of that, and things in Iran aren't much better.

In any case, the psychology of someone who is prepared to blow themselve up with a bomb-belt or fly a hijacked plane into a building to support their fanatic cause, probably isn't going to be too phased by torture.

These guys are prepared for a brief moment of pain to blow themselves up. But when it is spread over hours or days they will crack.

This is besides the point - as there's no way you or I can definitively know that, without referring to our less than stellar 2nd-hand experience from watching various movies and popular TV shows.

This isn't about ivory tower strategising or armchair diplomacy. Its about preserving the moral foundation of our society, and the values that it was founded on. I don't think that is something that should ever be compromised and there is no conceivable justification for it whatsoever.

[GaryC 7]

Then you can go to your death knowing you had the moral high ground. If that is the way you want to go then that is your right. I intend to fight to the bitter end with whatever means given to me.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Then you can go to your death knowing you had the moral high ground. If that is the way you want to go then that is your right. I intend to fight to the bitter end with whatever means given to me.

Why should my refusal to condone torture lead me to my death?

In any case, precisely how do you intend to fight to the bitter end?

[GaryC 7]

Then you can go to your death knowing you had the moral high ground. If that is the way you want to go then that is your right. I intend to fight to the bitter end with whatever means given to me.

Why should my refusal to condone torture lead me to my death?

In any case, precisely how do you intend to fight to the bitter end?

Sorry man, I just don't think you understand what we are up against. This isn't about a few IED's in Iraq. This isn't about another 9/11. These people intend to destroy our way of life. They will use any immoral way they can to get us. They will use nukes, chemicals and biological weapons on us in our own country. There is enough of that stuff floating around it is only a matter of time before they get their hands on it. I promise you they will use it on the biggest target they can when they get it. If making some terrorist have a bad day to prevent that then I am willing to live with that.

Edited May 3, 2006 by GaryC