Anonther Moscow Approval

[Bobalouie 0]

I don't know, I'm really hungover today. my head is really swimming right now!!!

I suppose it all depends if you see it as a) more than equal OR b ) something that helps women to BECOME equal.

Ok, so now you are saying that women should not be equal to men and be afforded additional protections under the law, in addition to the protections that everyone is entitled? I dont understand, up until now you wanted equality and now you want to be more than equal? Up until now I thought women didnt need to be considered "special" under the law.

In my eyes the fact that IMBRA is 'just wierd' is a clear sign that it is a militant feminist issue. If it was well thought out and provided the same protections to ALL women regardless of country of origin or method of aquaintance, then I would say it is not militant feminist and just misguided. Where you met and how much you paid are the ways that the law SINGLES OUT the subset of overall population that SOMEONE wants to control. Who would possibly want to control that particular subset of the population? Feminists like yourself? Men? non feminist women? Militant feminists? My guess is the former three groups of people could care less how two people met or where they come from. Which of those groups seems to be the likely candidate?

But there is no way that the law (in the instance of domestic violence) can help women to 'become equal'. Lets take this to the extreme. Lets say that a new law was passed that said that if a man hits his wife, it is an automatic 25 year sentence with no chance for parole in the federal hoosgow. That law (and all laws) can only give someone pause because laws dont prevent crime. They tell you what will happen if you do something. Since most domestic violence is not caluclated beforehand, the fact that the punishment the law provides (pause is nonexistant due to heat of the moment/crime of passion) will not be a factor and the woman will still get hit. It is already illegal to beat up people, woman or man. I dont see how a law with stricter punishment (which is really what 'special protections') are can help anyone become more equal.

The law doesnt stop me from running idiot drivers off of the road. It doesnt protect those people or prevent me from doing it. It only provides a structured outcome for if I do it and get caught. My self control and sense of right vs. wrong is what keeps me from mowing them down with my '48 Buick.

Edited April 4, 2008 by Bobalouie

[eekee 182]

OK... looking more into it, it should have been the violence against PEOPLE act.

But doesn't IMBRA apply to both men AND women who used a dating service? For instance, if I had used russianhusbands.com wouldn't I also be subject to IMBRA law?

But there is no way that the law (in the instance of domestic violence) can help women to 'become equal'. Lets take this to the extreme. Lets say that a new law was passed that said that if a man hits his wife, it is an automatic 25 year sentence with no chance for parole in the federal hoosgow. That law (and all laws) can only give someone pause because laws dont prevent crime. They tell you what will happen if you do something. Since most domestic violence is not caluclated beforehand, the fact that the punishment the law provides (pause is nonexistant due to heat of the moment/crime of passion) will not be a factor and the woman will still get hit. It is already illegal to beat up people, woman or man. I dont see how a law with stricter punishment (which is really what 'special protections') are can help anyone become more equal.

The law doesnt stop me from running idiot drivers off of the road. It doesnt protect those people or prevent me from doing it. It only provides a structured outcome for if I do it and get caught. My self control and sense of right vs. wrong is what keeps me from mowing them down with my '48 Buick.

Edited April 4, 2008 by eekee

[eekee 182]

When I was in preschool they asked us what we wanted to be when we grew up. All of the girls said they wanted to be the first women president.

The women bears the brunt of the family. i think that's the main answer.

I might have missed something here?

Is this the real question: Why aren't women trying to become US Senators in greater numbers? I would suggest looking inward for that answer. Ask your friends. Your neighbors. Why don't they get involved in politics? Why should they? And if they're genuinely not interested, what difference does it make?

Z

[visaveteran1 33]

I am not talking about male feminists in the senate. That is immaterial.

I think it's VERY material given the origin of this discussion...the infamous IMBRA law which some of us argue is a feminist driven law. Certain male senators and congressmen buy into the feminist agenda and this is obviously critical to pass legislation like IMBRA. Yes?

[shikarnov 7]

But doesn't IMBRA apply to both men AND women who used a dating service? For instance, if I had used russianhusbands.com wouldn't I also be subject to IMBRA law?

The law does not explicitly state that "men" are the targets of this legislation, but as you've pointed out in the past, women are usually the victims in the types of domestic violence situations this law is purported to prevent. And, as you've also noted, men, in massively disproportionate numbers, seek foreign wives. The target of this is quite clearly men.

Z

[eekee 182]

but not to the particular point i was making.

I am not talking about male feminists in the senate. That is immaterial.

I think it's VERY material given the origin of this discussion...the infamous IMBRA law which some of us argue is a feminist driven law. Certain male senators and congressmen buy into the feminist agenda and this is obviously critical to pass legislation like IMBRA. Yes?

Who knows? Maybe in the future things will change and women will go elsewhere for husbands.

So then you're saying that ANY law which deals with domestic violence/sexual assault is targeted towards men, because they commit the vast majority of such crimes?

But doesn't IMBRA apply to both men AND women who used a dating service? For instance, if I had used russianhusbands.com wouldn't I also be subject to IMBRA law?

The law does not explicitly state that "men" are the targets of this legislation, but as you've pointed out in the past, women are usually the victims in the types of domestic violence situations this law is purported to prevent. And, as you've also noted, men, in massively disproportionate numbers, seek foreign wives. The target of this is quite clearly men.

Z

[shikarnov 7]

When I was in preschool they asked us what we wanted to be when we grew up. All of the girls said they wanted to be the first women president.

The women bears the brunt of the family. i think that's the main answer.

I might have missed something here?

Is this the real question: Why aren't women trying to become US Senators in greater numbers? I would suggest looking inward for that answer. Ask your friends. Your neighbors. Why don't they get involved in politics? Why should they? And if they're genuinely not interested, what difference does it make?

Z

So what? When I was in pre-school, I wanted to be a fireman. And then a doctor. And POTUS. And a teacher. And a mathematician (ok, this particular desire came later). In real life, I never did any of those jobs. I mean, this pre-school analogy is really a stretch.

Z

Edited April 4, 2008 by shikarnov

[eekee 182]

and my brother wanted to marry chocolate milk. but the point is i don't think females come out of the womb not wanting to go into the politics. there are societal things which come into play.

When I was in preschool they asked us what we wanted to be when we grew up. All of the girls said they wanted to be the first women president.

The women bears the brunt of the family. i think that's the main answer.

I might have missed something here?

Is this the real question: Why aren't women trying to become US Senators in greater numbers? I would suggest looking inward for that answer. Ask your friends. Your neighbors. Why don't they get involved in politics? Why should they? And if they're genuinely not interested, what difference does it make?

Z

So what? When I was in pre-school, I wanted to be a fireman. And then a doctor. And POTUS. And a teacher. And a mathematician. In real life, I never did any of those jobs. I mean, this pre-school analogy is really a stretch.

Z

[shikarnov 7]

BTW: eekee, I'd like to take a moment to say "Thanks." It's nice to have a conversation with somebody offering a differing perspective. And even though we seem to oppose one another, I'm confident that we all believe strongly in equal rights for all people even if we get hung up on some of the details of how best to make that happen.

Z

[eekee 182]

Much better than the fight on got into on a russian website where all of these Russian girls were saying that since I felt that women and men can be genuine friends without anything sexual, i must be very narrow-minded and have low self-esteem and hail from a small village in Russia.

BTW: eekee, I'd like to take a moment to say "Thanks." It's nice to have a conversation with somebody offering a differing perspective. And even though we seem to oppose one another, I'm confident that we all believe strongly in equal rights for all people even if we get hung up on some of the details of how best to make that happen.

Z

[shikarnov 7]

Much better than the fight on got into on a russian website where all of these Russian girls were saying that since I felt that women and men can be genuine friends without anything sexual, i must be very narrow-minded and have low self-esteem and hail from a small village in Russia.

Did you ever see When Harry Met Sally? If not, you have to. It deals with this exact theme, and it's hilarious.

Z

[shikarnov 7]

and my brother wanted to marry chocolate milk. but the point is i don't think females come out of the womb not wanting to go into the politics. there are societal things which come into play.

This is starting to leave the broader topic of treating people equally under the law. If women don't want to be involved in politics (or any other profession for that matter), does it really matter if that's a result of nature or nurture? Is it really so hard to believe that men and women might naturally think differently?

And even if we don't think differently, and all this turns out to be the result of nurture, so what do we do then? Engage in cultural engineering with the hopes of manipulating females from birth so that they'll be more interested in holding political office?

Z

[eekee 182]

I think that laws which make it more favorable to have both a family and a career would help.

This is starting to leave the broader topic of treating people equally under the law. If women don't want to be involved in politics (or any other profession for that matter), does it really matter if that's a result of nature or nurture? Is it really so hard to believe that men and women might naturally think differently?

And even if we don't think differently, and all this turns out to be the result of nurture, so what do we do then? Engage in cultural engineering with the hopes of manipulating females from birth so that they'll be more interested in holding political office?

Z

Nope... don't really like meg ryan. But actually it's not a theme that interests me so much, because for me the proof is in the pudding, so to speak. I have too many good male friends to make it a subject of debate for me personally.

Did you ever see When Harry Met Sally? If not, you have to. It deals with this exact theme, and it's hilarious.

Z

Edited April 5, 2008 by eekee

[shikarnov 7]

I think that laws which make it more favorable to have both a family and a career would help.

This is starting to leave the broader topic of treating people equally under the law. If women don't want to be involved in politics (or any other profession for that matter), does it really matter if that's a result of nature or nurture? Is it really so hard to believe that men and women might naturally think differently?

And even if we don't think differently, and all this turns out to be the result of nurture, so what do we do then? Engage in cultural engineering with the hopes of manipulating females from birth so that they'll be more interested in holding political office?

Z

Ok... You've piqued my curiosity... How would laws making it favorable to have both a family and a career help get more women involved in running for office? And what kinds of laws do you envision the country needs that aren't already in place?

[Bobalouie 0]

OK... looking more into it, it should have been the violence against PEOPLE act.

But doesn't IMBRA apply to both men AND women who used a dating serviceFor instance, if I had used russianhusbands.com wouldn't I also be subject to IMBRA law??

But there is no way that the law (in the instance of domestic violence) can help women to 'become equal'. Lets take this to the extreme. Lets say that a new law was passed that said that if a man hits his wife, it is an automatic 25 year sentence with no chance for parole in the federal hoosgow. That law (and all laws) can only give someone pause because laws dont prevent crime. They tell you what will happen if you do something. Since most domestic violence is not caluclated beforehand, the fact that the punishment the law provides (pause is nonexistant due to heat of the moment/crime of passion) will not be a factor and the woman will still get hit. It is already illegal to beat up people, woman or man. I dont see how a law with stricter punishment (which is really what 'special protections') are can help anyone become more equal.

The law doesnt stop me from running idiot drivers off of the road. It doesnt protect those people or prevent me from doing it. It only provides a structured outcome for if I do it and get caught. My self control and sense of right vs. wrong is what keeps me from mowing them down with my '48 Buick.

I dont know the answer to that question due to the vageries of the way the law is written. Check out this website which has a PDF of the IMBRA Law. Check out Part 2 sections 2-5. It is all about American men and foreign women. Then the rest of the document is vague about the sex of the person seeking a foriegn spouse. But, it seems pretty man-centric to me. Plus, it IS part of the Violence against WOMEN act, and of course there is no Violence against MEN act.

Edited April 5, 2008 by Bobalouie