Evidences for K-1

[kaydee457 13]

Actually they do.. they are required to review everything that was submitted with the petition. The reason that providing additional evidence of the validity of the relationship is due to the reasons that I have stated above. Whether or not one wishes to provide this additional evidence and just submit a bare bone petition is up to the petitioner. However, Iif I knew I was going thrugh a high fraud consulate, I would take steps to do anything that could prevent a consular officer from sending a petition back to the USCIS.

Perhaps I'm not understanding you, zyggy. The petition goes to the USCIS first, and upon approval by a USCIS adjudicator is forwarded to the Consulate via the DOS.

How would submitting a lot of stuff that wasn't asked for to begin with prevent a Consulate from sending a case back to the USCIS when the topic of discussion here is the USCIS adjudication process and what's required for its approval of the I-129F petition and not what's necessary for the C.O. at a particular consulate?

Your rationale makes no sense to me....

Edited February 7, 2006 by kaydee457

[zyggy 9]

Actually they do.. they are required to review everything that was submitted with the petition. The reason that providing additional evidence of the validity of the relationship is due to the reasons that I have stated above. Whether or not one wishes to provide this additional evidence and just submit a bare bone petition is up to the petitioner. However, Iif I knew I was going thrugh a high fraud consulate, I would take steps to do anything that could prevent a consular officer from sending a petition back to the USCIS.

Perhaps I'm not understanding you, zyggy. The petition goes to the USCIS first, and upon approval by a USCIS adjudicator is forwarded to the Consulate via the DOS.

How would submitting a lot of stuff that wasn't asked for to begin with prevent a Consulate from sending a case back to the USCIS when the topic of discussion here is the USCIS adjudication process and what's required for its approval of the I-129F petition and not what's necessary for the C.O. at a particular consulate?

Your rationale makes no sense to me....

It all stems from who is really in charge of immigration. It's the USCIS. A Consular Officer can only send a petition back if and only if he or she believes that there was evidence or lack of evidence presented at the interview that in the Consular Officer's belief would have changed the outcome of the approval of the petition had it been known to the USCIS at the time the petition was originally reviewed. If evidence of the nature of the relationship was submitted with the petition and was subsequently reviewed by the USCIS, then the COnsular Officer cannot use lack of evidence of a genuine relationship as a reason to send back a petition as the USCIS has already reviewed evidence regarding the nature of the relationship and found it to be sufficient. If a consular officer wanted to send the petition back to USCIS if they doubted the nature of the relationship, they would have to find another reason to send the petition back.

Edited February 7, 2006 by zyggy

[Peter Miami 0]

I am in agreement somewhat with ziggy! For those of you who are lazy or just want to send minimum information like 2 pictures or 2 e-mails or 2 airline tickets, etc go for it then do not be crying when you get an RFE, denial, or any other problems with your petition.

I do not understand after going through all this crazy process, that the agencies involve do what ever they want and being away from your significant other why would you take that chance?

My K-1 fiancée visa petition was close to 100 pages, very well organized. Over 30 pictures, complete photo copy of passport (mine is like the yellow pages because I travel international for work), 12 airline tickets, receipts, boarding pass stubs (went 12 times to Colombia in 3 years, 15 e-mails from me to my fiancée, 15 e-mail from my fiancée to me, all types of credit card statements and receipts, home and cellular bill, and a million more things.

Could you people be so lazy as to provide all you can as soon as possible without having to be told to do so? I bunch of people get RFE’s for bad copies how hard and how much can it cost you to get a very good copy of birth certificate or divorce certificate?

I do not understand this maybe it is because I am a C.P.A.? I am ####### and detail, in my line of work you never leave any detail no matter how small it is and there can never be too much information, documentation or paperwork.

Peter Miami

Edited February 7, 2006 by Peter Miami

[kaydee457 13]

Pete ands ziggy. I suggest you two read the I-129F instructions and then visit the USCIS website and review the Field Manual for adjudicators concerning the evaluation of evidence.

The I-129F petition is evaluated for, and is adjudicated based on evidence that will prove, or disprove that: you are eligible to marry, you have met within the past two years (a statutory requirement), and that you are a U.S. Citizen.

Evidence that you're in a relationship is irrelevant, and adds nothing of value.

If it did, they would ask for it (as the consulates do).

There's nothing wrong with simply following the instructions and supplying what was asked for; no more, no less.

Why make this process harder than it is by "inventing" and imposing psuedo requirements on youself?

[zyggy 9]

Pete ands ziggy. I suggest you two read the I-129F instructions and then visit the USCIS website and review the Field Manual for adjudicators concerning the evaluation of evidence.

The I-129F petition is evaluated for, and is adjudicated based on evidence that will prove, or disprove that: you are eligible to marry, you have met within the past two years (a statutory requirement), and that you are a U.S. Citizen.

Evidence that you're in a relationship is irrelevant, and adds nothing of value.

If it did, they would ask for it (as the consulates do).

There's nothing wrong with simply following the instructions and supplying what was asked for; no more, no less.

Why make this process harder than it is by "inventing" and imposing psuedo requirements on youself?

I have "invented" nothing and take offense at you insinuating that I have "invented" anything

I'm afraid that you won't read this anywhere, but through practice and how the system works, what I wrote above is how many attorneys do things. This is one of those issues that you pick up with experience and a thorough knowledge of the process and the internal workings of the system. If you check other boards where experienced attorneys post on a regular basis, most of them will state that they include evidence of the relationship when submitting their I-129F submissions for the reason that I have stated above.

If you want further information regarding my position, I suggest that you look up posts from Andy, MDUdall or Ellis Island on this subject.

Edited February 7, 2006 by zyggy

[Canuck Carrie 1]

I am in agreement somewhat with ziggy! For those of you who are lazy or just want to send minimum information like 2 pictures or 2 e-mails or 2 airline tickets, etc go for it then do not be crying when you get an RFE, denial, or any other problems with your petition.

I do not understand after going through all this crazy process, that the agencies involve do what ever they want and being away from your significant other why would you take that chance?

My K-1 fiancée visa petition was close to 100 pages, very well organized. Over 30 pictures, complete photo copy of passport (mine is like the yellow pages because I travel international for work), 12 airline tickets, receipts, boarding pass stubs (went 12 times to Colombia in 3 years, 15 e-mails from me to my fiancée, 15 e-mail from my fiancée to me, all types of credit card statements and receipts, home and cellular bill, and a million more things.

Could you people be so lazy as to provide all you can as soon as possible without having to be told to do so? I bunch of people get RFE’s for bad copies how hard and how much can it cost you to get a very good copy of birth certificate or divorce certificate?

I do not understand this maybe it is because I am a C.P.A.? I am ####### and detail, in my line of work you never leave any detail no matter how small it is and there can never be too much information, documentation or paperwork.

Peter Miami

And ours consisted of 2 photos, 2 sets of boarding passes, 1 hotel bill and the required forms & documents, no more than 20 pages all together.

Some get through with a minimal amount of evidence and some are required to submit more.

[Cristy 4]

I guess what I don't understand is how doing exactly what is asked is lazy and sending in more than they want is the right thing?

We sent exactly what they asked and did not go overkill with evidence that was not requested at this time.

Maybe they need to start issuing RLE's (request for less evidence)

Edited February 7, 2006 by cristy

[rdou0494 0]

Could you people be so lazy as to provide all you can as soon as possible without having to be told to do so?

I find your comments insulting and your arrogance annoying.

I too was ready to send a 2 inch thick package but after discussions in this site, I decided to send exactly what they asked for and NO relationship evidence. It was 3 business days between my NOA1 and NOA2. As you will see from my timeline, I was approved blazingly fast in the middle of January when they were "officially" still working on packages from the middle of December. I'm sure a lot of people including myself are wondering why I got approved so fast. I can only surmise it was the organization of my package and the fact that they didn't have to review 100 pages of evidence that wasn't required at this point in time.

Whether this affects my fiancees chances at her interview remains to be seen but we have plenty of evidence and when my fiancee shows this at her interview, I don't believe it will make a difference whether they already had it before she got there. I guess we'll find out huh..

Rick

[kaydee457 13]

I have "invented" nothing and take offense at you insinuating that I have "invented" anything

I'm afraid that you won't read this anywhere, but through practice and how the system works, what I wrote above is how many attorneys do things. This is one of those issues that you pick up with experience and a thorough knowledge of the process and the internal workings of the system. If you check other boards where experienced attorneys post on a regular basis, most of them will state that they include evidence of the relationship when submitting their I-129F submissions for the reason that I have stated above.

If you want further information regarding my position, I suggest that you look up posts from Andy, MDUdall or Ellis Island on this subject.

Thank you for now you have proven my point exactly! Ignorance knows no bounds on the internet.

I challenge you once again to demonstrate whereby all this superfluous information, and supposed evidence, was imposed on the petitioner/applicant, and by whom? It certainly isn't the USCIS.

It is however an ever increasing number of people on the internet passing this kind of "psuedo" requirement along in postings such as yours.

As for attorney's; well what's to say? Do they really know more than you or I? I think not; at least for the majority of them concerning immigration process. It's been proven time and again in these forums.

It's clear that this psuedo requirement is yet one more instance of someones "good idea" becoming more than just that; a good idea, and passed along as "fact".

Perhaps you should step back and ask yourself the simple question; had I just read the instructions and complied would I have been any worse off? After all, there are many, many people that do not visit forums such as this and just read the instructions.

Sorry if your feelings are zyggy but you'll survive I'm sure.

P.S. Please don't drop names such as Andy, Ellis Island, and the arrogant and infamous Udall.....

I'm sure they wouldn't want to be included in this debate without their own personal input.

Edited February 8, 2006 by kaydee457

[john_and_marlene 162]

Pete ands ziggy. I suggest you two read the I-129F instructions and then visit the USCIS website and review the Field Manual for adjudicators concerning the evaluation of evidence.

The I-129F petition is evaluated for, and is adjudicated based on evidence that will prove, or disprove that: you are eligible to marry, you have met within the past two years (a statutory requirement), and that you are a U.S. Citizen.

Evidence that you're in a relationship is irrelevant, and adds nothing of value.

If it did, they would ask for it (as the consulates do).

There's nothing wrong with simply following the instructions and supplying what was asked for; no more, no less.

Why make this process harder than it is by "inventing" and imposing psuedo requirements on youself?

I'd suggest you read the threads concerning all the recent denials in Morocco. It sounds like the CO had made up their mind before the chance to submit additional evidence at the interview.

[aussiewench 9]

I'd suggest you read the threads concerning all the recent denials in Morocco. It sounds like the CO had made up their mind before the chance to submit additional evidence at the interview.

It is not a good situation that has been happening in morocco by any means and I really feel for all going through there. But I really doubt in the situations you are referring to, that no evidence or not enough evidence of ongoing relationship was submitted with the petition and then the CO made their mind up based on that prior and denying. And this is what Kaydee and many of us are trying to say. From reading some of the morocco threads, I am curious as to how much evidence of the relationship was submitted already at service center level?? And how much of this had assisted in the CO already making their mind up and not being interested in seeing further evidence.

Lorelle

[kaydee457 13]

I'd suggest you read the threads concerning all the recent denials in Morocco. It sounds like the CO had made up their mind before the chance to submit additional evidence at the interview.

Your point is what? You're connecting the lack of relationship evidence not submitted at petition stage to these denials?

Relationship evidence is not solicited at the petition stage.

It seems to me that if there are cases that have been flatly denied in Morocco without reviewing relationship evidence then there's more serious undelying problems with those cases, or perhaps just an angry C.O.

[irishgirl73 0]

I just mentioned this is another post-if relationship evidence is NOT required at the initial stage then it should be removed from the VJ guides.

It is causing a lot of unnecessary confusion.

Edited February 8, 2006 by irishgirl73

[aussiewench 9]

It all stems from who is really in charge of immigration. It's the USCIS. A Consular Officer can only send a petition back if and only if he or she believes that there was evidence or lack of evidence presented at the interview that in the Consular Officer's belief would have changed the outcome of the approval of the petition had it been known to the USCIS at the time the petition was originally reviewed. If evidence of the nature of the relationship was submitted with the petition and was subsequently reviewed by the USCIS, then the COnsular Officer cannot use lack of evidence of a genuine relationship as a reason to send back a petition as the USCIS has already reviewed evidence regarding the nature of the relationship and found it to be sufficient. If a consular officer wanted to send the petition back to USCIS if they doubted the nature of the relationship, they would have to find another reason to send the petition back.

With that train of thought how is it then that a petitioner who has submitted an abundance of evidence of proof of the relationship, the beneficiary has still had their visa denied. Con officers can only deny and return a petition when it is found that the beneficiary may not be entitled to status due to fraud (evidence not available at time of approval), changes in circumstances, or clear error in the approval of the petition. Even IF evidence of the relationship is submitted and the petition is subsequently approved, there is nothing stopping a Conof from citing the latter (clear error) as reason for denial as it is the Conofs position to look at all the evidence provided for proof of the relationship, even whats already been submitted to USCIS. It is USCIS postition, that a petition is approved if all the 'requirements' of said petition have been met.

7. In general, an approved petition will be considered by

consular officers as prima facie evidence that the requirements

for classification - which are examined in the petition process

- have been met. Where Congress has placed responsibility and

authority with DHS to determine whether the requirements for

status which are examined in the petition process have been met,

consular officers do not have the authority to question the

approval of petitions without specific evidence, generally

unavailable to DHS at the time of petition approval, that the

beneficiary may not be entitled to status (see 9 FAM 41.53, Note

2, 41.54 Note 3.2-2, 41.55 Note 8, 41.56 Note 10, 41.57 Note 6,

and 42.43 Note 2) due to fraud, changes in circumstances or

clear error on the part of DHS in approving the petition.

Conoffs should not assume that a petition should be revoked

simply because they would have reached a different decision if

adjudicating the petition.

Source

I found this part interesting from a USCIS Interoffice Memorandum

Therefore, when a case is approvable based on initial evidence, and there is not evidence justifying a particular concern to support a RFE or a referral to Fraud Detection and National Security (FDNS), the case

should be approved without RFE or NOID.

Source

IMO sending too much evidence could lead to such a concern, whether it has true basis or not.

[zyggy 9]

I just mentioned this is another post-if relationship evidence is NOT required at the initial stage then it should be removed from the VJ guides.

It is causing a lot of unnecessary confusion.

People are trying to make what is not a cut and dry issue into something cut and dry...

I took thhis quote from a Consular Officer that used to post on here...

1. I am with the Department of State. DHS/USCIS is a different agency. They initially approve the petition, but have no authority to grant a visa. I cannot revoke the petition, but I cannot be compelled to issue the visa. I know that this seems odd, but it's all part of the 'separation of powers' doctrine on which our entire political system is based. In general, on reflection, I think it is logical, and helps prevent abuse in the long run.

2. "Different rules for different Consulates/Embassies." While I really like Visa Journey overall, the trouble here is that there tends to be generalizations that will not work in other cultures. Theoretically, one of the many reasons that they send me out here to live, train me in the language and culture, etc, is so that I can make sound decisions based on ALL the factors. Let's take a totally fictitious example as illustrative of what I mean. In the country Visalia, first cousin marriages are illegal by statute, and are completely culturally taboo. It is simply not done. I, as a consular officer living there, know this. The DHS officer looking at a paper petition has no idea. S/He has no reason to deny the petition, and so approves it. But I know that there is a high likelihood that fraud is involved here. I can only return a petition to DHS/USCIS with a RECOMMENDATION that the petition be revoked. I do this outlining factors THAT WERE NOT APPARENT TO THE DHS OFFICER AT THE TIME OF PETITION APPROVAL. If they agree and revoke, fine. If not, they will reaffirm the case. But this type of cultural difference does not lend itself easily to making generalizations.

I also took this From Mr. Ellis, an attorney that used to post on this site as "ellis-island"

What everyone should do - is to inform CIS in advance - at the time of filing the I-129F of any little factor a conoff may view with suspicion, no dam hoi, a hastily arranged dam hoi, whatever. If there is a weakness in your case. Explain it to CIS in a leter with your petition. If CIS considers that factor and approves anyway, the consulate is required to to come up with a new information not available to CIS at the time of approval to deny the visa application.

and

Why explain it to CIS? Because according to the February cable I've posted here many places, a conoff needs evidence that was not available to CIS at the time of petition approval before he or she can justify denying an application.

If CIS has considered the evidence and approved anyway, a conoff needs to find a different reason to deny the visa application.

After CIS approval, a US Citizen petitioner could then write the consulate a letter, once he or she has the case number for the beneficiary's case. He or she should then point out all the factors that CIS considered in approving the petition.

So any weakness in your case - tell CIS in advance.

If consulates obey the law - they'll need new evidence not

available to CIS at the time of approval, to justify denying the visa application.

Not many petitioners or even lawyers are doing this - but they should be doing it.

This is what was wriotten by two individuals who are experts in this area... Trying to make a process that is not cut and dry into something totally cut and dry is irresponsible. Instructing people to just submit the minimum could result in unnecessary complications. Each person's experience is unique and needs to be treated as unique...