Double Standards

[doodlebugg 10]

Some women do like the whole Dominant/submissive thing.

And yes keylime pie is an alltime fav but it has to be done right 'cause a bad keylime pie can ruin your whole day.

[sarahaziz 0]

sorry wahrania i think everyones making it a bigger deal than it is lol.

I doubt her husband is same to a commanding Saudi or something. His wife is for him only and he's only for his wife period. He doesn't like other men to talk to her cuz he knows other men there are nasty minded. Like I said its all about respect and whoever says it has nothign to do with culture IT HAS EVERYTHING TO DO WITH IT. Arab MENTALITY is not as open as AMERICAN MENTALITY. Every man in this world can get jealous but how he shows it is different. American men know to hold their tongue and allow things to happen bc they don't want to start arguments. I think everyone here has open minded men which is great for everyones life. A strict muslim arab man would never consider marrying a western woman in the first place. That's probably why nobody sees the cultural differences.

[jpaula 20]

No one is saying culture is not a factor. What many are saying is that culture is not an excuse--it is not a reason for you to accept behavior that is not alright with you. "Oh, it is his culture to..." Most marriages here are bi-cultural which means that both cultures enter in to it, so the cultural question is complicated. Do husbands say "well, it is her culture to interact with other men so I guess it is OK?" The point is that a couple has to discuss how their own marriage works and each partner must know, and be honest about, what they themselves can compromise on and what they can't. If you accept jealousy as an appropriate, or even desirable, aspect of your marriae that is your choice. But, for women who do not, for those of us who see it as control rather than love, there is no way, in our own marriages to excuse that jealousy as culture. You marry someone with who you are not only in love, but also compatible and these issues have to be honestly discussed becuase they play an enormous role in marriage.

[Jenn! 918]

You marry someone with who you are not only in love, but also compatible and these issues have to be honestly discussed because they play an enormous role in marriage.

Your whole post was spot on, but I just wanted to comment on this bit. Yes, compromise is very important in a marriage, but I would think that if there is a compromise that must be made on *every* single issue, then you've got a fundamental compatibility problem. It's one thing to have some cultural differences that you work through via compromise (or even concession on small issues), and it's entirely another to change yourself completely in order to accommodate cultural expectations of a partner. I guess I have a hard time understanding what creates a relationship like that in the first place.

[jpaula 20]

Jenn, I totally agree. Also, I think I should be clear that none of this is to say that there is anything objectively wrong with any given culture. It is just a question of establishing common expectations before you marry and this requires much more work when both people come with different cultural assumptions of what marriage, respect, family, religion, etc are. And, it is ongoing.

Interesting in this thread the difference in responses from women who met their husbands in the US or Europe and those that met online and/or solely in his home country.

[Beauty for Ashes 257]

Jenn, I totally agree. Also, I think I should be clear that none of this is to say that there is anything objectively wrong with any given culture. It is just a question of establishing common expectations before you marry and this requires much more work when both people come with different cultural assumptions of what marriage, respect, family, religion, etc are. And, it is ongoing.

Interesting in this thread the difference in responses from women who met their husbands in the US or Europe and those that met online and/or solely in his home country.

I agree JP. I met my husband in Algeria doing something else. We were just friends when we started with absolutely no intention of being anything else. I think I talked to you in Pm Jp about some of the work I have done over there with museums. As the relationship developed, certain things came out that I had not seen at first and it did not diminish my love for him, but I have never really had alot of control placed over me in my life and I have always freely traveled and come and go in other relationships ( which my mom says IS NOT NORMAL.. ie travelling overseas without a spouse, taking trips to other cities, doing what I wanted at all times)

I have married a very traditional arab muslim man with very specific ideas of what a woman should do. He doesnt restrict my work or my hobbies. Its mostly interaction with other men , which in effect DOES restrict some of my research and writing because I cannot easily collaborate with film makers or other people that do the same line of work as me. If he were more open minded , I would have a much easier time. In our relationship, I have pretty much done ALL the compromising. I am upset about it. I also like many on here have lived alone a long long time and havent lived with anyone for 4 years and also he and I have been seperated our entire marriage. I think alot of the fear comes from knowing I will have to usurp the last of my control of my life here and now I will have no place that I really have complete freedom. Do I love him? Yes. Am I afraid of control issues? Truthfully yes. Do I talk back and say what I want and think? Not really easy. First I am very in love with him. Second I was very very very badly abused by a mena man, my last long term relationship and I am terrified of failure. I do not find his behavior very unusual or very different than many of the Algerians I have met. They want their wife for themselves, to cook for and take care of them and make them first in their lives. I am just a little unsure of how I will handle it when he is here and I am pretty much doing everything from working pregnant to trying to help him adjust , to dealing with him maybe being jealous or trying to tell me how to dress. I think I will do my best to lay ground rules to include get my family involved in helping him understand that this is the USA and I have to be free to talk to people and interact. I am basing all of this on his actions IN ALGERIA. Not potential actions in the USA. These were not his initial actions, its how his personality evolved through the year and how one by one , different things I liked had to be changed to the point that I arrived back to the uSa in January pregnant and a little shaken... I am really sorry I talked about all of this. I think it has to do more with me and my choices than him . He is who he is and I married him that way. I cant change someone I found that way. Its more of how I will help him understand who I am and why he needs to let me have breathing space

[~Jackie~ 30]

Hold up sarahaziz,,,,,,,,,,

'A strict muslim arab man would never consider marrying a western woman in the first place.

Then I guess the thousands of female muslim converts in America are doomed to a 'unstrict muslim arab man'. ?????

I just don't agree with that. My husband does pray 5 times a day, he does attend mosque for jumah and we read quran together every night before bed. I am so glad he does not feel like you.

Jackie

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Hold up sarahaziz,,,,,,,,,,

'A strict muslim arab man would never consider marrying a western woman in the first place.

Then I guess the thousands of female muslim converts in America are doomed to a 'unstrict muslim arab man'. ?????

I just don't agree with that. My husband does pray 5 times a day, he does attend mosque for jumah and we read quran together every night before bed. I am so glad he does not feel like you.

Jackie

That is one of the few things sara has said recently that I agree with. With some of the crazy things I read here from non-Muslim women about Muslim men, I'd be less than honest if I didn't admit that I don't expect most of these couplings to last. Not all, but most. This is also true for converts married to born Muslims. I've witnessed this trend for decades. Sorry. Sad, but true.

[Nasturtium 500]

Interesting in this thread the difference in responses from women who met their husbands in the US or Europe and those that met online and/or solely in his home country.

I met mine while working together in his country. We had a lot in common-- same education level, same academic diciplne, same values, goals, etc. We also have similar feelings on modesty and such-- I don't touch other people all on my own, and it had nothing to do with him. In the same way, I chose to cover neck to ankles to wrists without him ever saying a word. He didn't know I did it until six months later. He doesn't tell me what to do, and I don't tell him what to do-- but we inevitably consult each other on just about everything (obviously not everything, I mean you all decide to get a drink or go to the bathroom on your own, right? I hope so.) We talked about just about everything we could think of before we even decided to get engaged because it was only logical to both of us. We mostly had an extremely dry couple of months of conversation that was like some kind of state department negotiation. Obviously there was the love adn fuzzy stuff, but when we were talking marriage it had another side to the goo-- it was about character and compatibility. Gooey feelings go after a while. You hope they don't, but even if you are hopelessly in love for your whole life there does come a point when you are accustomed to the other person and it's no longer "new." We wanted to get past that in our conversations and make sure we were making a good decision that would last. We wanted to be sure there would be as few surprises from the other person as possible, and that in everything we had a good idea where the other person stood in their beliefs, points of view, and morals. Marriage doesn't work on love alone- -or at least we both didn't think it would. We knew we needed to have a better foundation than "feelings."

[sarahaziz 0]

No one is saying culture is not a factor. What many are saying is that culture is not an excuse--it is not a reason for you to accept behavior that is not alright with you. "Oh, it is his culture to..." Most marriages here are bi-cultural which means that both cultures enter in to it, so the cultural question is complicated. Do husbands say "well, it is her culture to interact with other men so I guess it is OK?" The point is that a couple has to discuss how their own marriage works and each partner must know, and be honest about, what they themselves can compromise on and what they can't. If you accept jealousy as an appropriate, or even desirable, aspect of your marriae that is your choice. But, for women who do not, for those of us who see it as control rather than love, there is no way, in our own marriages to excuse that jealousy as culture. You marry someone with who you are not only in love, but also compatible and these issues have to be honestly discussed becuase they play an enormous role in marriage.

I definitely agree with you Jpaula, I see and understand your view. "well, it is her culture to interact with other men so I guess it is OK?" But this quote really counts for alot if you think about it. They DO view western women on being more open than arabian girls. Arab girls are too shy to even give massages to each other (girl to girl sister to sister), show arms/legs/below neck, don't look or talk to men bc there's no experience with guys so there's no casual conversation or interaction with unknown males or family members/friends we're not close with and if you do converse with unknown males youre known as a "haram girl if you have male friends (1 male with 1 unrelated female is 3 with the devil)" It's a proverb highly respected in our culture. American women live in a diverse cultural area where it's rude if you don't acknowledge somebody with a handshake or smile, if you don't know somebody you still introduce yourself respectfully in a professional manner or act like you've known them for years to avoid uneasiness with the group of friends. I've seen that difference in these 2 cultures.

I'm not saying jealousy is good or proves love nothing like that. It's something within our culture that's part of love. It's one of those emotions connected to being shy. Here in america if someones jealous "they're a psyco who needs counseling"

I think if anyone is wondering about this you can ask your spouse the cultural differences it may not pertain to him and you but it really is a cultural thing when compared next to westernized romance.

I never disagreed with your point Jpaula about the 2 compromising you are absolutely right about that in my opinion.

[sarahaziz 0]

Hold up sarahaziz,,,,,,,,,,

'A strict muslim arab man would never consider marrying a western woman in the first place.

Then I guess the thousands of female muslim converts in America are doomed to a 'unstrict muslim arab man'. ?????

I just don't agree with that. My husband does pray 5 times a day, he does attend mosque for jumah and we read quran together every night before bed. I am so glad he does not feel like you.

Jackie

That's fine Mrs Jackie, I don't see the need for you to be nasty about it but anyhow it doesn't relate to your spouse, I'm speaking for arab men back home still living in villages, cities in their own country not going online to meet westernized women, trying to apply for work/student visas to USA, don't look towards american tourist women. Those are the majority of men who don't accept western women as wives bc of what they've "heard about american culture" . Muslim women meaning they cover themselves head to toe not only reading and practicing quran. I'm sure if you think about it from my view you will understand I didn't mean anything horrible towards you directly or any other women. It's just a common fact they don't jump into bi-cultural relationships if theyre not ok with their women talking to other men and stuff like that. I guess I worded it wrong sorry for my english.

Edited March 29, 2008 by sarahaziz

[sereia 0]

duhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!

[Beauty for Ashes 257]

Hold up sarahaziz,,,,,,,,,,

'A strict muslim arab man would never consider marrying a western woman in the first place.

Then I guess the thousands of female muslim converts in America are doomed to a 'unstrict muslim arab man'. ?????

I just don't agree with that. My husband does pray 5 times a day, he does attend mosque for jumah and we read quran together every night before bed. I am so glad he does not feel like you.

Jackie

That is one of the few things sara has said recently that I agree with. With some of the crazy things I read here from non-Muslim women about Muslim men, I'd be less than honest if I didn't admit that I don't expect most of these couplings to last. Not all, but most. This is also true for converts married to born Muslims. I've witnessed this trend for decades. Sorry. Sad, but true.

Ive witnessed several BORN muslimas get used and tossed for greencards....hijabis at that...no one is immune....especially with age disparity

Hold up sarahaziz,,,,,,,,,,

'A strict muslim arab man would never consider marrying a western woman in the first place.

Then I guess the thousands of female muslim converts in America are doomed to a 'unstrict muslim arab man'. ?????

I just don't agree with that. My husband does pray 5 times a day, he does attend mosque for jumah and we read quran together every night before bed. I am so glad he does not feel like you.

Jackie

That's fine Mrs Jackie, I don't see the need for you to be nasty about it but anyhow it doesn't relate to your spouse, I'm speaking for arab men back home still living in villages, cities in their own country not going online to meet westernized women, trying to apply for work/student visas to USA, don't look towards american tourist women. Those are the majority of men who don't accept western women as wives bc of what they've "heard about american culture" . Muslim women meaning they cover themselves head to toe not only reading and practicing quran. I'm sure if you think about it from my view you will understand I didn't mean anything horrible towards you directly or any other women. It's just a common fact they don't jump into bi-cultural relationships if theyre not ok with their women talking to other men and stuff like that. I guess I worded it wrong sorry for my english.

Sarah,maybe in your villiage..Im really shocked that as a christian you were accepted...Raising kids in ISLAM is HUGE

[Beauty for Ashes 257]

No one is saying culture is not a factor. What many are saying is that culture is not an excuse--it is not a reason for you to accept behavior that is not alright with you. "Oh, it is his culture to..." Most marriages here are bi-cultural which means that both cultures enter in to it, so the cultural question is complicated. Do husbands say "well, it is her culture to interact with other men so I guess it is OK?" The point is that a couple has to discuss how their own marriage works and each partner must know, and be honest about, what they themselves can compromise on and what they can't. If you accept jealousy as an appropriate, or even desirable, aspect of your marriae that is your choice. But, for women who do not, for those of us who see it as control rather than love, there is no way, in our own marriages to excuse that jealousy as culture. You marry someone with who you are not only in love, but also compatible and these issues have to be honestly discussed becuase they play an enormous role in marriage.

I definitely agree with you Jpaula, I see and understand your view. "well, it is her culture to interact with other men so I guess it is OK?" But this quote really counts for alot if you think about it. They DO view western women on being more open than arabian girls. Arab girls are too shy to even give massages to each other (girl to girl sister to sister), show arms/legs/below neck, don't look or talk to men bc there's no experience with guys so there's no casual conversation or interaction with unknown males or family members/friends we're not close with and if you do converse with unknown males youre known as a "haram girl if you have male friends (1 male with 1 unrelated female is 3 with the devil)" It's a proverb highly respected in our culture. American women live in a diverse cultural area where it's rude if you don't acknowledge somebody with a handshake or smile, if you don't know somebody you still introduce yourself respectfully in a professional manner or act like you've known them for years to avoid uneasiness with the group of friends. I've seen that difference in these 2 cultures.

I'm not saying jealousy is good or proves love nothing like that. It's something within our culture that's part of love. It's one of those emotions connected to being shy. Here in america if someones jealous "they're a psyco who needs counseling"

I think if anyone is wondering about this you can ask your spouse the cultural differences it may not pertain to him and you but it really is a cultural thing when compared next to westernized romance.

I never disagreed with your point Jpaula about the 2 compromising you are absolutely right about that in my opinion.

You live on another planet sarah.There is plenty of romance in Algeria....Lovers,love stories,romance etc,,,,,,,its just not overt...but its there all over the place

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Ive witnessed several BORN muslimas get used and tossed for greencards....hijabis at that...no one is immune....especially with age disparity

Your response is no surprise, wahrania. You're a one trick non-Muslim pony full of negative stereotypes about Arabs and Muslims. But one thing that is clear is that you have serious doubts about your own relationship based on your past, and a great need to pull others down with you in your despair. You could use help. Insha'allah, you will get it and soon.

PS- You won't get it here.

Edited March 29, 2008 by Virtual wife