if your SO's visa was denied...

[chri'stina 190]

Stina.....

Can we do a hypothetical?

Let's just say (God forbid) that something happened to Suj and you were left on your own to care for Kavi. Later on, you met another guy from another part of the world. You fell in love with him.

Who do you think would be moving where?

I know what you mean, but my issue is more of...why get into that kind of relationsip to begin with? If the hypothetical happened, I would have a hard time letting myself fall in love with someone from another part of the world again(assuming I even wanted another relationship). I would fight myself about it and would try to avoid that situation happening unless I knew for sure that Kavi and I could move if needed. If we absolultey couldn't move, then I wouldn't want to enter that kind of long distance international relationship. Me and Kavi would be a combo deal, you get both of us or neither of us, and if you can't move here and I can't move there, then we aren't even going to start a relationship.

Stina -

I understand about NOT looking for another relationship of this kind. I mean - the paperwork alone is a nuisance! LOL

And I understand what you mean about you and Kavi being a combo deal.

I guess I think it's important for kids to have roots. They need their friends; their same school; their same room. Some kids are more flexible than others. My son is, was and always has been a homebody. I think his psyche really requires a physical home base and he gets highly agitated if that homebase is upset. Other kids - not so much.

It's my thinking that it's not necessary to put a 'qualifier' (for lack of a better word) on a relationship that BOTH of the parties have to be willing to move. I personally don't believe that needs to be part of the equation that proves the parties in the relationship are equally committed to each other. WHERE the couple lives usually has to do with several practical concerns - one of which is children (if there happen to be any in the picture).

What do you think?

I agree with a lot of what you are saying. The qualifier for me wouldn't be about committment but about possible heart break. I just personally would not want to be in that position.

[Dr. Obvious 49]

First my children are not babies. My youngest is 12. and my oldest 27.

Let's say they were. 2-8. Would you dump them with their mother and fly the coop to probably live in abject poverty for love? What if she leaves you or things change, would it have been worth it?

I am not sure that when people say they wouldn't move for the children they are talking about children above the age of 13.

At anyrate, I am just not a very romantic person I suppose. I didn't even consider a relationship with my husband at first because of the Atlantic. I lived with him abroad, underemployed and depressed. I had no professional future in Germany. Unfortuantely, love is not everything. The feeling that gnaws at you over years where you know you could just do better if you were home...sets up feelings of resentment and low self-worth. Although on the face, giving up everything you know to live with the SO of your dreams sounds like all stars and roses, it really always isn't. I mean, look at the "Regret Moving to the US" thread in the Canada forum. Sure, you are with your love, but it just isn't everything. Those other things are not things to be sneezed at. I think it should be completely understandable if neither party can or wants to move and the relationship ends if it ever even started. As cliche as it is, there are more fish in the sea. I can't see regreting my husband 20 years from now if we had never formed a real relationship or let the government interfere. I probably would have moved on by then and forgotten about it. YMMV.

[Kazan' Tiger 1]

Right off your choice of words are terrible. I cannot play out this scenario properly as my children are not this age range. I am a romantic, it is my nature. I want someone that is my partner in life and my equal. If I had a child that was only 2 it would be very difficult to try and exist completely alone for the next 16 years. The love felt for a wife is ions different than the love for a child. I love my children very much but I would not want to wake up in 16 years and now have the chance to look for a love for me.

First my children are not babies. My youngest is 12. and my oldest 27.

Let's say they were. 2-8. Would you dump them with their mother and fly the coop to probably live in abject poverty for love? What if she leaves you or things change, would it have been worth it?

I am not sure that when people say they wouldn't move for the children they are talking about children above the age of 13.

At anyrate, I am just not a very romantic person I suppose. I didn't even consider a relationship with my husband at first because of the Atlantic. I lived with him abroad, underemployed and depressed. I had no professional future in Germany. Unfortuantely, love is not everything. The feeling that gnaws at you over years where you know you could just do better if you were home...sets up feelings of resentment and low self-worth. Although on the face, giving up everything you know to live with the SO of your dreams sounds like all stars and roses, it really always isn't. I mean, look at the "Regret Moving to the US" thread in the Canada forum. Sure, you are with your love, but it just isn't everything. Those other things are not things to be sneezed at. I think it should be completely understandable if neither party can or wants to move and the relationship ends if it ever even started. As cliche as it is, there are more fish in the sea. I can't see regreting my husband 20 years from now if we had never formed a real relationship or let the government interfere. I probably would have moved on by then and forgotten about it. YMMV.

[Dr. Obvious 49]

Well, we are speaking in hypotheticals here. Why would it have to be just this particular woman far away? You do not agree that it is completely within the realm of possiblity that you could fall madly in love with someone closer to home if you were to decide that your relationship with your child was more important than your relationship with your LDR? The point I am having trouble with is exactly that.

[Kazan' Tiger 1]

Well, my first wife was almost the girl next door! But, looking at the way I live my life now, the odds would fall in favour of finding someone not within commuting distance. Even my former wife who has tons of "in town" connections cannot find a decent man locally and she may have to move too (which means the children would as well.)

Well, we are speaking in hypotheticals here. Why would it have to be just this particular woman far away? You do not agree that it is completely within the realm of possiblity that you could fall madly in love with someone closer to home if you were to decide that your relationship with your child was more important than your relationship with your LDR? The point I am having trouble with is exactly that.

[Dr. Obvious 49]

Well, I never grew up in a small town. I have never lived in a place where there was less than 100k. I have no idea what that is like for everyone to know everyone. I will say that much.

However, I am just talking even within the same state. Ohio is not a huge place relatively speaking. There are several large cities, most within about 2 hours of each other. 2 hours away by car is something far different than 16-20 hours by plane, which is really the crux of the matter. Ohio has a population of several million. Seems unlikely that there is just no one out there period, even if you were to reduce the number to 100,000 properly aged and gendered matches. I am uncertian why you believe that you would never find love again within your general area and would have to spend the rest of the child's childhood years alone.

[rebeccajo 14]

I agree with a lot of what you are saying. The qualifier for me wouldn't be about committment but about possible heart break. I just personally would not want to be in that position.

I guess I never wanted to be in it either.

So - the FIRST time Wes and I spoke on the telephone - I informed him I was 'planted' (my exact words) in the US. I had a son and that was that.

Fortunately for us, that was ok with him. He didn't have children; had never been married; his parents are deceased; his aunts are uncles are spread out all over and the family network is 'loose'; and his brother (23 years older) was happy for Wes to find a woman.

If it hadn't been ok - well then - I guess we would never have started.

Maybe I'm selfish. I wasn't going to deny myself a chance for real happiness if the man I loved was willing to move for me. I just couldn't move for him. Not because I didn't love him as much as he loved me, but because I had to love my son first.

[rebeccajo 14]

Right off your choice of words are terrible. I cannot play out this scenario properly as my children are not this age range. I am a romantic, it is my nature. I want someone that is my partner in life and my equal. If I had a child that was only 2 it would be very difficult to try and exist completely alone for the next 16 years. The love felt for a wife is ions different than the love for a child. I love my children very much but I would not want to wake up in 16 years and now have the chance to look for a love for me.

Yes - love between a man and woman is different than that felt for a child. Adult love is reciprocal; parent/child love isn't.

The love felt for a child includes the promise of protection, support and guidance because they are too small, too immature and too inexperienced to figure it all out for themselves. It's a 'one-way' street kind of love; you don't always get back from your kid what you put into them. At least not when the feelings are happening.

Again - you've got your apples and oranges mixed up. The love between a parent and child isn't the same as between a man and woman.

[Kazan' Tiger 1]

Well it also goes a bit deeper. I found Alla's values, beliefs, and overall mindset far more in tune with mine over any lady I had met in person or over the internet within a reasonable distance of my home. Alla felt the same. The light just turned on for us. We have always joked about how two people with such in common could have been dropped on earth so far apart. I don't think I could find another "Alla" in any State. She was exactly what I was looking for and I for her.

Well, I never grew up in a small town. I have never lived in a place where there was less than 100k. I have no idea what that is like for everyone to know everyone. I will say that much.

However, I am just talking even within the same state. Ohio is not a huge place relatively speaking. There are several large cities, most within about 2 hours of each other. 2 hours away by car is something far different than 16-20 hours by plane, which is really the crux of the matter. Ohio has a population of several million. Seems unlikely that there is just no one out there period, even if you were to reduce the number to 100,000 properly aged and gendered matches. I am uncertian why you believe that you would never find love again within your general area and would have to spend the rest of the child's childhood years alone.

How do I have them mixed? I said, they are ions apart. It seems I understand quite well.

Right off your choice of words are terrible. I cannot play out this scenario properly as my children are not this age range. I am a romantic, it is my nature. I want someone that is my partner in life and my equal. If I had a child that was only 2 it would be very difficult to try and exist completely alone for the next 16 years. The love felt for a wife is ions different than the love for a child. I love my children very much but I would not want to wake up in 16 years and now have the chance to look for a love for me.

Yes - love between a man and woman is different than that felt for a child. Adult love is reciprocal; parent/child love isn't.

The love felt for a child includes the promise of protection, support and guidance because they are too small, too immature and too inexperienced to figure it all out for themselves. It's a 'one-way' street kind of love; you don't always get back from your kid what you put into them. At least not when the feelings are happening.

Again - you've got your apples and oranges mixed up. The love between a parent and child isn't the same as between a man and woman.

[rebeccajo 14]

Ok. I guess you did say that.

Maybe I'm confused because it seems to me you are saying a relationship with a woman is more important to you than a relationship with your children. And I get that message because you are saying you would sacrifice a close relationship with them in order to have a close relationship with a woman.

I don't understand that. But then, men tend to look at the parenting role a bit differently than women do. Men walk away from their kids every day of the week with little or no regrets. My own ex-husband was able to justify it in his mind by saying "if I have lost my son, I have lost my son. So be it." And the man and boy weren't even separated georgaphically. The boy just wouldn't knuckle under to his fathers head games.

Maybe it's part of that 'warrior/forager' thing men have going on internally. If the child can't be conquered, move onto the next conquest.

How do I have them mixed? I said, they are ions apart. It seems I understand quite well.

Right off your choice of words are terrible. I cannot play out this scenario properly as my children are not this age range. I am a romantic, it is my nature. I want someone that is my partner in life and my equal. If I had a child that was only 2 it would be very difficult to try and exist completely alone for the next 16 years. The love felt for a wife is ions different than the love for a child. I love my children very much but I would not want to wake up in 16 years and now have the chance to look for a love for me.

Yes - love between a man and woman is different than that felt for a child. Adult love is reciprocal; parent/child love isn't.

The love felt for a child includes the promise of protection, support and guidance because they are too small, too immature and too inexperienced to figure it all out for themselves. It's a 'one-way' street kind of love; you don't always get back from your kid what you put into them. At least not when the feelings are happening.

Again - you've got your apples and oranges mixed up. The love between a parent and child isn't the same as between a man and woman.

[Kazan' Tiger 1]

Rebecca, let me try this... IF my children did not have a mother that I felt was 100% capable of raising them, I would have never entered into a LDR without the condition of she would HAVE to come to me. Although I disagree with many things she does, she is responsible mother. I love my children but we could manage acceptably apart if I had to relocate overseas.

Ok. I guess you did say that.

Maybe I'm confused because it seems to me you are saying a relationship with a woman is more important to you than a relationship with your children. And I get that message because you are saying you would sacrifice a close relationship with them in order to have a close relationship with a woman.

I don't understand that. But then, men tend to look at the parenting role a bit differently than women do. Men walk away from their kids every day of the week with little or no regrets. My own ex-husband was able to justify it in his mind by saying "if I have lost my son, I have lost my son. So be it." And the man and boy weren't even separated georgaphically. The boy just wouldn't knuckle under to his fathers head games.

Maybe it's part of that 'warrior/forager' thing men have going on internally. If the child can't be conquered, move onto the next conquest.

How do I have them mixed? I said, they are ions apart. It seems I understand quite well.

Right off your choice of words are terrible. I cannot play out this scenario properly as my children are not this age range. I am a romantic, it is my nature. I want someone that is my partner in life and my equal. If I had a child that was only 2 it would be very difficult to try and exist completely alone for the next 16 years. The love felt for a wife is ions different than the love for a child. I love my children very much but I would not want to wake up in 16 years and now have the chance to look for a love for me.

Yes - love between a man and woman is different than that felt for a child. Adult love is reciprocal; parent/child love isn't.

The love felt for a child includes the promise of protection, support and guidance because they are too small, too immature and too inexperienced to figure it all out for themselves. It's a 'one-way' street kind of love; you don't always get back from your kid what you put into them. At least not when the feelings are happening.

Again - you've got your apples and oranges mixed up. The love between a parent and child isn't the same as between a man and woman.

[chri'stina 190]

I agree with a lot of what you are saying. The qualifier for me wouldn't be about committment but about possible heart break. I just personally would not want to be in that position.

I guess I never wanted to be in it either.

So - the FIRST time Wes and I spoke on the telephone - I informed him I was 'planted' (my exact words) in the US. I had a son and that was that.

Fortunately for us, that was ok with him. He didn't have children; had never been married; his parents are deceased; his aunts are uncles are spread out all over and the family network is 'loose'; and his brother (23 years older) was happy for Wes to find a woman.

If it hadn't been ok - well then - I guess we would never have started.

Maybe I'm selfish. I wasn't going to deny myself a chance for real happiness if the man I loved was willing to move for me. I just couldn't move for him. Not because I didn't love him as much as he loved me, but because I had to love my son first.

I can understand what you are saying. But still, what if something happened, out of his and your control, that prevented him from moving here ever? That risk would scare me(since it would possibly equal heartbreak), which is the reason I couldn't see myself getting involved in that kind of situation. I am not saying it's wrong, I just think it's risky. I think also it can be an issue of which country the person is coming from. Certain countries have far higher denial rates of visas, although I am sure most people have no idea how hard it will possibly be to get an SO here from those places until they start the process and by then they are in love. Sometimes it's not as easy as agreeing who will move where, but more of will the US even let them move here. And what are you going to do if they aren't allowed? Anyway, those are just the reasons I wouldn't think I'd want to do it.

[Alex+R 0]

Rebecca, let me try this... IF my children did not have a mother that I felt was 100% capable of raising them, I would have never entered into a LDR without the condition of she would HAVE to come to me. Although I disagree with many things she does, she is responsible mother. I love my children but we could manage acceptably apart if I had to relocate overseas.

What do you mean "had to"?

Answer this question: Is your relationship with your children more important or you relationship with your fiancee?

I know you're "done" with me and everything, but that's the question other people are asking and you're evading.

[rebeccajo 14]

I agree with a lot of what you are saying. The qualifier for me wouldn't be about committment but about possible heart break. I just personally would not want to be in that position.

I guess I never wanted to be in it either.

So - the FIRST time Wes and I spoke on the telephone - I informed him I was 'planted' (my exact words) in the US. I had a son and that was that.

Fortunately for us, that was ok with him. He didn't have children; had never been married; his parents are deceased; his aunts are uncles are spread out all over and the family network is 'loose'; and his brother (23 years older) was happy for Wes to find a woman.

If it hadn't been ok - well then - I guess we would never have started.

Maybe I'm selfish. I wasn't going to deny myself a chance for real happiness if the man I loved was willing to move for me. I just couldn't move for him. Not because I didn't love him as much as he loved me, but because I had to love my son first.

I can understand what you are saying. But still, what if something happened, out of his and your control, that prevented him from moving here ever? That risk would scare me(since it would possibly equal heartbreak), which is the reason I couldn't see myself getting involved in that kind of situation. I am not saying it's wrong, I just think it's risky. I think also it can be an issue of which country the person is coming from. Certain countries have far higher denial rates of visas, although I am sure most people have no idea how hard it will possibly be to get an SO here from those places until they start the process and by then they are in love. Sometimes it's not as easy as agreeing who will move where, but more of will the US even let them move here. And what are you going to do if they aren't allowed? Anyway, those are just the reasons I wouldn't think I'd want to do it.

I understand.

You mentioned people having no idea how hard it might be to get their SO here - that by the time they figure it out, it may already be 'too late' and they are in love.

This might sound heard-hearted, but I think anyone who enters into a relationship with someone from a foreign land without researching the possibilities of travel, etcetera is very foolish indeed. I'd been speaking with Wes for only about a month when I got curious about it. I've often posted about how I was looking for a 'live-in boyfriend' visa and was deeply dismayed to find out there was no such thing!

Maybe you feel the way you do because now, having been through the process, you know how difficult all this is and how tenuous things can be. If that's what you're thinking, I agree with that 100%. The odds are slim and none that I would be willing to go through this again myself.

I don't know. To me, having been a parent with a son who was near the age of 'spreading his wings' when I entered my relationship - I knew it was all 'do-able'. I knew the worst case scenario was us not living together for three years. I've seen people do that for longer on VJ with NO kids involved.

Any relationship has risks - even those with the 'guy next door'. So when you have a child and you enter ANY relationship, there's an element of risk and negotiation.

Personally, I don't feel that my 'ultimatum' to Wes was a bad thing. I laid the cards out on the table right from the very beginning. If it had been unacceptable to him, the relationship would have ended. And that would have just been one of those things - a sad thing, but something he and I would have gotten over. If I had changed the rules midstream, that would have been wrong. But I don't believe my telling him (from the very beginning) that my son came first was some sign that my commitment to him was not as great as his to me. His moving across the sea didn't mean leaving a child behind; mine would have. The sacrifices would not have been the same.

[Kazan' Tiger 1]

Still poking Alex? If Alla were denied a visa I would feel an obligation to go to her. That is the "had to". I asked her to marry me unconditionally.

My relationship would not change with my children. As I posted previously, the relationship between a man and his children compared to his spouse are ions apart. Neither relationship is more "important" as they cannot be compared. That is not evading anything.

I have to laugh and the statement, "...the question other people are asking". I am not running for public office nor starting up a cult to honour my belief system. Why does anyone care about the relationship I have with Alla or my children?

Rebecca, let me try this... IF my children did not have a mother that I felt was 100% capable of raising them, I would have never entered into a LDR without the condition of she would HAVE to come to me. Although I disagree with many things she does, she is responsible mother. I love my children but we could manage acceptably apart if I had to relocate overseas.

What do you mean "had to"?

Answer this question: Is your relationship with your children more important or you relationship with your fiancee?

I know you're "done" with me and everything, but that's the question other people are asking and you're evading.