Talking about race: Um, you first

[one...two...tree 2,762]

By Stephanie Simon and Richard Fausset

Los Angeles Times Staff Writers

LITHONIA, GA. — How do we start a national dialogue on race?

Charlotte Griffin was at a restaurant one evening when a white woman complimented her on her children's behavior. The stranger may have meant to be kind. But Griffin wondered if she heard a note of condescension -- an assumption, perhaps, that black kids aren't usually so polite.

How do we navigate that minefield?

As a teenager, Stan North went to work on the assembly line at Ford. He made good money. But he noticed that he -- like all the other white guys -- always got the dirty jobs. Seething, he concluded that the boss wouldn't dare give a black man heavy lifting, for fear of being tagged a racist.

How do we acknowledge that anger?

In his recent address on race relations in America -- prompted by his minister's explosive sermons on that topic -- Sen. Barack Obama declared that whites must understand the black experience in America and blacks must appreciate the white perspective. Otherwise, he said, we face a grinding "racial stalemate."

His remarks struck a nerve: More than 4 million people watched the Democratic presidential candidate on live TV, and the speech is now a top video on YouTube, viewed nearly 3 million times.

Preachers and teachers across the country have been trying to figure out how to leverage that interest to launch deep, authentic discussions about race. In some quarters, there's strong interest.

"This is a very good time to put everything on the table," said Abdullah Robinson, 64, a black man who lives in suburban Atlanta. "We don't know nothing about each other, and we've been living together for hundreds of years."

But others don't want any part of a dialogue that starts from the premise that there is a black America and a white America. They don't want to hear about victims and oppressors. It's past time, they say, to move on.

Blacks "bring up the enslavement card way too much," said JoAnna Cullinane-Halda, 64, who just opened a home decor boutique in rural Colorado. "I'm Irish. My people were enslaved as well. But it's far enough in our dark past. We've gone beyond that. Let it go."

The complexities of opening a dialogue on race were evident after a day of long conversations with African Americans in Lithonia, Ga., a suburban haven for black professionals outside Atlanta, and with whites in Franktown, Colo., a working-class town in the hills southeast of Denver.

Carmen Van Kerckhove, co-founder of a diversity consulting firm in New York, described the dynamic this way: "Human beings tend to be really focused on their own oppression, and tend to be less interested in hearing about the oppression of others."

Old resentments

North, 50, grew up in integrated Detroit. He went to school with black friends. He played ball with them, swam with them. Every now and then, fists would fly over a racial insult. Then they'd all go back to hanging out together.

As far as North was concerned, everyone was equal. If anything, he said, blacks were better off because affirmative action gave them a boost into college. His own grades weren't good enough for a scholarship; he ended up building engines at Ford.

A few years in, he tried to get shifted off the heavy jobs -- but his boss, he said, dismissed him with a curt: "You're a white boy. What're you crying about?" North looked around. He noticed that when minorities complained, "they got moved to a different job, because [the supervisors] were afraid of the race card."

Now North has a good job repairing tractors and trailers in Franktown. But when he reflects on his days at Ford, he feels the old resentment.

"I kept hearing: 'Minority this, minority that. Blacks aren't getting this, blacks aren't getting that.' I'm disgusted with it," he said. "OK, fine, they've gotten stepped on for 400 years. Let's give them something [to make up for it] and be done with it, the way we did with the Indians."

He's had enough, he said, of identity politics: "If you're born here, you're an American. Period. Act like an American." A fellow mechanic began listing racial and ethnic groups: African American, Hispanic American, Chinese American.

"It's tiring," North interrupted sharply. "These people had the same opportunities I did. . . . And they want everything handed to them."

Same opportunities? Same schools, same sports teams, yes.

But Wayne Sledge, who is 48 and black, went to an integrated school in Georgia -- and he doesn't remember everything being so equal. Sledge said it was clear that "the white people didn't want the black people in the school." There were bloody brawls. A pep rally was interrupted by a student in a Ku Klux Klan hood. "It was pretty rough," said Sledge.

Pam Miller also went to an integrated school in the mid-1970s, in suburban St. Louis. Her most vivid memories are of terror:

Two white men chasing her with crowbars.

A white boy trying to throw her over the banister at school.

A white girl -- someone she'd thought her friend -- standing by, laughing, as Miller ran down the street chasing a truck carrying two of her white tormentors. Miller slapped the girl.

Today, age 47 and settled in Georgia, Miller says she wouldn't be so quick to strike. Her grandfather carried a sharp anger against whites all his life -- an anger that came from years of minding his place, years of "yes suh, yes suh, yes suh," Miller said.

She doesn't want such resentment to cloud her own life, so she has worked deliberately, with the Lord's help, to shake free. She holds two jobs, at JCPenney and a coffee shop, and she serves up the same smile for all customers, black and white.

Still, her memories shadow her, shaping her perceptions.

The other day, a white woman shopping at Penney's commented on a stuffed monkey for sale. Miller heard something in that remark. The woman made "monkey" sound like a racist innuendo. Maybe she didn't mean a thing by it.

But Miller felt certain she did.

'In this day and age?'

Lithonia is anchored by big new houses, upscale shopping and a gleaming, prosperous mega-church so big it has its own gym. It also happens to be nearly 80% African American.

So one of Ora Hammond's white co-workers freely refers to the suburb as "the ghetto." Another of Hammond's colleagues in the operations department at Delta Air Lines complains that affirmative action amounts to racism against whites.

"We've said things to each other that hurt," said Hammond, 49, who is black. "But the bottom line is: They're still my friends."

Hammond says he and his white friends talk about race all the time. The conversations can get dicey. People get mad. But it's worth it, he says, because it brings them all closer.

In her small beauty salon in Franktown, Charlotte Britton, 65, serves white and black customers. But Britton, who is white, wouldn't dream of talking with them about race. Part of that is business: She likes to keep chatter in the salon light -- no politics, no religion.

But the deeper truth is this: She never dreamed that anyone would want to talk about race. Until she saw video clips of Obama's pastor sermonizing about black oppression, Britton said she had no clue that anyone other than a few hard-core white supremacists thought much about skin color.

"I thought we were past that," she said. "I didn't realize this was going on in the United States. In this day and age? I was shocked."

In renouncing his pastor's remarks, Obama urged blacks and whites to reach out to one another. He asked blacks to recognize that "most working- and middle-class white Americans don't feel that they have been particularly privileged by their race. . . . No one's handed them anything. . . . They've worked hard all their lives, many times only to see their jobs shipped overseas or their pension dumped."

For whites, he explained that the roots of black anger trace a bitter path from slavery through segregation through legalized discrimination that kept generations of blacks from buying homes and working their way into the middle class.

Whites, he said, must acknowledge "that what ails the African American community does not just exist in the minds of black people; that the legacy of discrimination -- and current incidents of discrimination . . . are real and must be addressed."

Britton, in her Country HAIRitage salon, finds that argument unconvincing.

"They're bringing up slavery," she said, bewildered. "I had nothing to do with slavery."

'This is America'

Over lunch with two friends at the Grill on the Hill in Franktown, Pat Millsap expressed unease about her mother's views on race, especially Latino immigration. "I don't like the way she talks about it," she said.

Then Millsap, 52, looked down at her plate.

"You know," she said, "I've been looking for jobs in environmental education. A lot of them require that you speak Spanish. It sounds so awful to say this, but it's very frustrating. Shouldn't they learn English? This is America."

'Even I want to move'

As she put the finishing touches on a client's look in a Lithonia beauty salon, Griffin -- the woman with notably well-behaved children -- talked about her home in Conyers, a racially mixed suburb a few miles to the east.

She'd always thought of Conyers as a nice place to raise a family, with a slow-paced lifestyle and some pretty good schools. But lower-income blacks have begun to move in from central Atlanta, Griffin said, bringing crime and blight.

Whites have started moving out. Griffin, 36, blames that on racism.

Then she admits she's not comfortable, either, with what Conyers is becoming. The new black arrivals are dragging down the quality of life. Sometimes, she said, "even I want to move out."

The challenge of unity

"If we simply retreat into our respective corners," Obama said last week, "we will never be able to come together."

But coming together is hard.

It may require owning up to uncomfortable prejudices.

It may require seeing pain we don't want to know exists.

Lorry Schmitz, who is white, was married for seven years to a black man. She says he chose to be oblivious to racism, but she saw and felt every slight -- starting on their honeymoon cruise, when passengers kept assuming her husband was a ship worker, even when he wore a suit and tie. Schmitz saw racism in the black community, too; her in-laws made clear that they wished their son had married a black woman.

Such attitudes disturbed her deeply.

"We're stronger and smarter when we mix," said Schmitz, 52. "This is supposed to be a melting pot."

But Schmitz is an anthropologist by training, and she knows how tough it is to bring people together. "We are genetically set up to preserve our tribe," she said, "so anyone who looks different or sounds different is isolated."

She sighed, frustrated.

"It's so complex," she said.

A friend at her table interrupted, laughing: "It's not black and white."

Schmitz giggled. Then she repeated, more soberly: "No. It's not black and white."

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/na...0,4931652.story

[nana_356 0]

In my opinion, I can understand why some blacks are still so angry, not enough time has gone by just yet,segregation did not end until the 1960's, there are still many people alive that have first-hand experience of the harsh predjudice and segregation, and have also experienced watching their parents or grandparents be killed or tortured. Its still fresh for blacks.How can I tell a person like that they need to move on?

When they have actually watched it?

But every new generation things get better and better, many people are embracing interacial relationships and there-fore procreating mixed children and I think thats great. Personally being egyptian many people think that I am mixed with white and black, and it has made things so easy for my,at first glance I am was exepted by many. But on other topics such as not being able to get a job because I dont speak spanish, that truly makes no sense to me??

[Y's_habibitk 2]

By Stephanie Simon and Richard Fausset

Los Angeles Times Staff Writers

LITHONIA, GA. — How do we start a national dialogue on race?

Charlotte Griffin was at a restaurant one evening when a white woman complimented her on her children's behavior. The stranger may have meant to be kind. But Griffin wondered if she heard a note of condescension -- an assumption, perhaps, that black kids aren't usually so polite.How do we navigate that minefield?

As a teenager, Stan North went to work on the assembly line at Ford. He made good money. But he noticed that he -- like all the other white guys -- always got the dirty jobs. Seething, he concluded that the boss wouldn't dare give a black man heavy lifting, for fear of being tagged a racist.

How do we acknowledge that anger?

In his recent address on race relations in America -- prompted by his minister's explosive sermons on that topic -- Sen. Barack Obama declared that whites must understand the black experience in America and blacks must appreciate the white perspective. Otherwise, he said, we face a grinding "racial stalemate."

His remarks struck a nerve: More than 4 million people watched the Democratic presidential candidate on live TV, and the speech is now a top video on YouTube, viewed nearly 3 million times.

Preachers and teachers across the country have been trying to figure out how to leverage that interest to launch deep, authentic discussions about race. In some quarters, there's strong interest.

"This is a very good time to put everything on the table," said Abdullah Robinson, 64, a black man who lives in suburban Atlanta. "We don't know nothing about each other, and we've been living together for hundreds of years."

But others don't want any part of a dialogue that starts from the premise that there is a black America and a white America. They don't want to hear about victims and oppressors. It's past time, they say, to move on.

Blacks "bring up the enslavement card way too much," said JoAnna Cullinane-Halda, 64, who just opened a home decor boutique in rural Colorado. "I'm Irish. My people were enslaved as well. But it's far enough in our dark past. We've gone beyond that. Let it go."

The complexities of opening a dialogue on race were evident after a day of long conversations with African Americans in Lithonia, Ga., a suburban haven for black professionals outside Atlanta, and with whites in Franktown, Colo., a working-class town in the hills southeast of Denver.

Carmen Van Kerckhove, co-founder of a diversity consulting firm in New York, described the dynamic this way: "Human beings tend to be really focused on their own oppression, and tend to be less interested in hearing about the oppression of others."

Old resentments

North, 50, grew up in integrated Detroit. He went to school with black friends. He played ball with them, swam with them. Every now and then, fists would fly over a racial insult. Then they'd all go back to hanging out together.

As far as North was concerned, everyone was equal. If anything, he said, blacks were better off because affirmative action gave them a boost into college. His own grades weren't good enough for a scholarship; he ended up building engines at Ford.

A few years in, he tried to get shifted off the heavy jobs -- but his boss, he said, dismissed him with a curt: "You're a white boy. What're you crying about?" North looked around. He noticed that when minorities complained, "they got moved to a different job, because [the supervisors] were afraid of the race card."

Now North has a good job repairing tractors and trailers in Franktown. But when he reflects on his days at Ford, he feels the old resentment.

"I kept hearing: 'Minority this, minority that. Blacks aren't getting this, blacks aren't getting that.' I'm disgusted with it," he said. "OK, fine, they've gotten stepped on for 400 years. Let's give them something [to make up for it] and be done with it, the way we did with the Indians."

He's had enough, he said, of identity politics: "If you're born here, you're an American. Period. Act like an American." A fellow mechanic began listing racial and ethnic groups: African American, Hispanic American, Chinese American.

"It's tiring," North interrupted sharply. "These people had the same opportunities I did. . . . And they want everything handed to them."

Same opportunities? Same schools, same sports teams, yes.

But Wayne Sledge, who is 48 and black, went to an integrated school in Georgia -- and he doesn't remember everything being so equal. Sledge said it was clear that "the white people didn't want the black people in the school." There were bloody brawls. A pep rally was interrupted by a student in a Ku Klux Klan hood. "It was pretty rough," said Sledge.

Pam Miller also went to an integrated school in the mid-1970s, in suburban St. Louis. Her most vivid memories are of terror:

Two white men chasing her with crowbars.

A white boy trying to throw her over the banister at school.

A white girl -- someone she'd thought her friend -- standing by, laughing, as Miller ran down the street chasing a truck carrying two of her white tormentors. Miller slapped the girl.

Today, age 47 and settled in Georgia, Miller says she wouldn't be so quick to strike. Her grandfather carried a sharp anger against whites all his life -- an anger that came from years of minding his place, years of "yes suh, yes suh, yes suh," Miller said.

She doesn't want such resentment to cloud her own life, so she has worked deliberately, with the Lord's help, to shake free. She holds two jobs, at JCPenney and a coffee shop, and she serves up the same smile for all customers, black and white.

Still, her memories shadow her, shaping her perceptions.

The other day, a white woman shopping at Penney's commented on a stuffed monkey for sale. Miller heard something in that remark. The woman made "monkey" sound like a racist innuendo. Maybe she didn't mean a thing by it.

But Miller felt certain she did.

'In this day and age?'

Lithonia is anchored by big new houses, upscale shopping and a gleaming, prosperous mega-church so big it has its own gym. It also happens to be nearly 80% African American.

So one of Ora Hammond's white co-workers freely refers to the suburb as "the ghetto." Another of Hammond's colleagues in the operations department at Delta Air Lines complains that affirmative action amounts to racism against whites.

"We've said things to each other that hurt," said Hammond, 49, who is black. "But the bottom line is: They're still my friends."

Hammond says he and his white friends talk about race all the time. The conversations can get dicey. People get mad. But it's worth it, he says, because it brings them all closer.

In her small beauty salon in Franktown, Charlotte Britton, 65, serves white and black customers. But Britton, who is white, wouldn't dream of talking with them about race. Part of that is business: She likes to keep chatter in the salon light -- no politics, no religion.

But the deeper truth is this: She never dreamed that anyone would want to talk about race. Until she saw video clips of Obama's pastor sermonizing about black oppression, Britton said she had no clue that anyone other than a few hard-core white supremacists thought much about skin color.

"I thought we were past that," she said. "I didn't realize this was going on in the United States. In this day and age? I was shocked."

In renouncing his pastor's remarks, Obama urged blacks and whites to reach out to one another. He asked blacks to recognize that "most working- and middle-class white Americans don't feel that they have been particularly privileged by their race. . . . No one's handed them anything. . . . They've worked hard all their lives, many times only to see their jobs shipped overseas or their pension dumped."

For whites, he explained that the roots of black anger trace a bitter path from slavery through segregation through legalized discrimination that kept generations of blacks from buying homes and working their way into the middle class.

Whites, he said, must acknowledge "that what ails the African American community does not just exist in the minds of black people; that the legacy of discrimination -- and current incidents of discrimination . . . are real and must be addressed."

Britton, in her Country HAIRitage salon, finds that argument unconvincing.

"They're bringing up slavery," she said, bewildered. "I had nothing to do with slavery."

'This is America'

Over lunch with two friends at the Grill on the Hill in Franktown, Pat Millsap expressed unease about her mother's views on race, especially Latino immigration. "I don't like the way she talks about it," she said.

Then Millsap, 52, looked down at her plate.

"You know," she said, "I've been looking for jobs in environmental education. A lot of them require that you speak Spanish. It sounds so awful to say this, but it's very frustrating. Shouldn't they learn English? This is America."

'Even I want to move'

As she put the finishing touches on a client's look in a Lithonia beauty salon, Griffin -- the woman with notably well-behaved children -- talked about her home in Conyers, a racially mixed suburb a few miles to the east.

She'd always thought of Conyers as a nice place to raise a family, with a slow-paced lifestyle and some pretty good schools. But lower-income blacks have begun to move in from central Atlanta, Griffin said, bringing crime and blight.

Whites have started moving out. Griffin, 36, blames that on racism.

Then she admits she's not comfortable, either, with what Conyers is becoming. The new black arrivals are dragging down the quality of life. Sometimes, she said, "even I want to move out."

The challenge of unity

"If we simply retreat into our respective corners," Obama said last week, "we will never be able to come together."

But coming together is hard.

It may require owning up to uncomfortable prejudices.

It may require seeing pain we don't want to know exists.

Lorry Schmitz, who is white, was married for seven years to a black man. She says he chose to be oblivious to racism, but she saw and felt every slight -- starting on their honeymoon cruise, when passengers kept assuming her husband was a ship worker, even when he wore a suit and tie. Schmitz saw racism in the black community, too; her in-laws made clear that they wished their son had married a black woman.

Such attitudes disturbed her deeply.

"We're stronger and smarter when we mix," said Schmitz, 52. "This is supposed to be a melting pot."

But Schmitz is an anthropologist by training, and she knows how tough it is to bring people together. "We are genetically set up to preserve our tribe," she said, "so anyone who looks different or sounds different is isolated."

She sighed, frustrated.

"It's so complex," she said.

A friend at her table interrupted, laughing: "It's not black and white."

Schmitz giggled. Then she repeated, more soberly: "No. It's not black and white."

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/na...0,4931652.story

I just was caught by the opening paragraph. Strangers complimenting your childs behavior is in no way a backhanded racial comment. I think alot of times.. there is so much sensitivity, that it makes it difficult. Now, that said.. I have been known to get more angered than the offended party when some redneck lets some ignorant comment fly out.

I worked with a supervisor who would say sh*t like "well you know how those black people are" and "she has a n**ger attitude" I was: #######??? PLEASE dont say that word in front of me EVER!

I was at her house months later and her husband said it and she said.. oh,Gary. Lisa doesnt like that word, like I was some wierdo!

My dad is pretty racist (getting better with age), and his excuse is: well this is how I was raised. He told me I ruined his legacy when I was pregnant. What legacy???? lol I guess my future children will be ok, since mid east decendants are considered "white" LOL Its all amusing to me now, but it was FAR from that when I was pregnant.

Im sorry but if I held that excuse and used the "this is how I was raised" card... I would probably be a junkie in a gutter somewhere.

Everyone is a product of their environment.. good or bad. Some people however never question what they were taught/experienced as children.

I live in Kentucky and they STILL bus children miles from home. I still have a hard time wrapping my head around that one. I think they use "socio-economical" standards, but the bottomline is they are still trying to integrate children in the school. Is it necessary? I dont know. I grew up in Santa Ana, CA as the only blonde on the school bus from 2nd grade thru middle school. I never really thought about it until I heard "weda"(spelling) which is used as a derogitory term for white girl in spanish. This was a daily occurance for a long time.

While I dont want my son to go to school where all the kids look alike or whatever ( I want him tobe exposed to all cultures and races).. I also dont want him to travel 45 minutes on a bus to grade school. We live a pretty diverse neighborhood.. but when he starts school, he wont be going to the school accross the street.. he'll be bussed to another area school.

I dont know what my point is.. Im still waking up and started ranting, sorry

Lisa

[nana_356 0]

I would like to share a personal experince, my husband is black and lifts weight so he is quite big. Well we were coming out of subway and this group of white men stopped him and said " Prison sure puts you guys in shape, how long were you in? " I could not believe it. My husband is a law enforcement officer!

Another instance,he was at a vitamin store trying to buy dieters green tea, the lady at the register said, " Just to inform you , this doesnt get marijuana out of your system"

Another instance my husband was in Santa barbara (predominantly white), it was a long drive so he pulled over to in & out, ate -used the R&R, and was walking around the parking lot to stretch his legs, next thing you know 4 cop cars surround him pull out their guns and had him lay on the floor, a woman in side the restaurant called the cops stating that their is a black guy that is trying to get inside peoples cars, and he looks like the type to have a gun!

Well long story short after they saw his badge they were appoligizing for 10 min. Discrimination is still alive

[one...two...tree 2,762]

I would like to share a personal experince, my husband is black and lifts weight so he is quite big. Well we were coming out of subway and this group of white men stopped him and said " Prison sure puts you guys in shape, how long were you in? " I could not believe it. My husband is a law enforcement officer!

Another instance,he was at a vitamin store trying to buy dieters green tea, the lady at the register said, " Just to inform you , this doesnt get marijuana out of your system"

Another instance my husband was in Santa barbara (predominantly white), it was a long drive so he pulled over to in & out, ate -used the R&R, and was walking around the parking lot to stretch his legs, next thing you know 4 cop cars surround him pull out their guns and had him lay on the floor, a woman in side the restaurant called the cops stating that their is a black guy that is trying to get inside peoples cars, and he looks like the type to have a gun!

Well long story short after they saw his badge they were appoligizing for 10 min. Discrimination is still alive

Wow. These are the kinds of experiences, repeated among most black people in America. For those who say to blacks, "they need to get over it and move on" are either ignorant about those experiences or unable to imagine themselves in their shoes.

[SnowyTater 0]

I would like to share a personal experince, my husband is black and lifts weight so he is quite big. Well we were coming out of subway and this group of white men stopped him and said " Prison sure puts you guys in shape, how long were you in? " I could not believe it. My husband is a law enforcement officer!

Another instance,he was at a vitamin store trying to buy dieters green tea, the lady at the register said, " Just to inform you , this doesnt get marijuana out of your system"

Another instance my husband was in Santa barbara (predominantly white), it was a long drive so he pulled over to in & out, ate -used the R&R, and was walking around the parking lot to stretch his legs, next thing you know 4 cop cars surround him pull out their guns and had him lay on the floor, a woman in side the restaurant called the cops stating that their is a black guy that is trying to get inside peoples cars, and he looks like the type to have a gun!

Well long story short after they saw his badge they were appoligizing for 10 min. Discrimination is still alive

That all really really sucks I'm sorry.

I really wouldn't think that 'that sort of thing' happens that much anymore, and I guess maybe that's part of the problem. If all the black (or any minority I guess) people I know have a list of incidents like that that I just don't know about/that they don't talk about, then it's obviously a lot worse than I and I'd say the majority of us still would think.

I do think it's getting better with each generation though, I agree with that. I mean the civil rights movement was barely a droplet of time ago, in the grand scheme of things. 1960s on an epoch scale feels like yesterday to me. And for that matter, geez the Civil War was less than 200 years ago which still, again, no time at all...I think when you look at it on a big scale like that, I'm actually kind of impressed that we've come as far as we've come in racial equality in such a 'short' time period. But then it's incredibly easy for ME to say that, isn't it, as I'm a little white girl and don't see the other sides of these things.

I think with the younger generation a lot of the issues cited in the article are directly addressed these days. My roommate here at college for 3 years is black so it has actually come up a lot, not as like an 'issue' that needs to be addressed but I don't know, just with humor and stuff it comes out. And actually she brings up race more than I do, like reading double entendres into something I said that I didn't mean at all. I can understand psychologically being more sensitive about that stuff though and wondering 'was that meant as racist', and I think we've called each other out a lot over the years. It's just like little stuff. The latest incident was I made us some tea and had a black mug and a white mug and we both know that look in each other faces now, of 'oh this is gonna have implications', so these days I just say it before she can and said something like "Just choose one because either one I hand you is gonna make me evil!"

But it's cool, and I mean there's jokes and misunderstandings and also late night debates lots of times. But there is STILL in my experience that point you hit when you start going deep that as a white person, the black person will clam up on you...Like my roomie would never tell me the reasons that she likes Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton even though she laughed and agreed if you said they were extreme or something.

My mom's had some bad experiences. She was friends with someone at work during the OJ trial that she really liked, but got upset one day when the woman was glad that OJ was acquitted and finally mom got her to say why, because the woman thought he was guilty, and the woman said "It's like this...we feel like we finally got one over on ol' whitie." So I mean that sort of thing would tick people off, yeh.

I don't know. To be honest when it comes to racial issues and studies, I'm much more interested in learning about the plight of black women than just all black people in general. I kind of feel like in this country today, a man can just...take care of himself. If he's in trouble he'll be alright, he only HAS to look out for himself, even if we think he's morally obligated to look out for a family. But women aren't going to have as many opportunities and are more vulnerable to danger if they're on their own, plus if you've got children you obviously have to take care of them. It's weird here in Charleston. There's tons of people begging for money all the time downtown, and like...seriously, at least 95% of them are black men. My entire four years down here I've only been hit up for money by TWO women, whereas every time you take a walk you'll get asked at least half a dozen times on your walk. And lots of times have seen the men make a beeline straight for the bar as soon as you give them some, so to be honest I've just stopped altogether, because I'd rather if a woman asks me or someone who looks like they REALLY need it asks me be able to give them like $20, than give every slacker that asks a buck. But I just wonder how many of these men that are out and sleep in the park in their work uniforms (uniforms, so they have jobs, aren't just unemployed and homeless) and then you see them going into the bars and stuff, how many of them have families?

I'm not saying it's all their fault and this is like their inherent moral make-up or anything like that. I know that socially there's a lot of reasons that the family structures are more screwed up and it's probably a lot harder than I even know to grow up in a bad area AND be discriminated against AND deal with all the psychological factors with that. But I mean I just feel really worse for black women than all black people in general, because if a man can't handle all that racial pressure then he can go off and beg and maybe drink, or just give up, or whatever else. I think the full brunt of all the consequences goes on the women.

Plus if you look at interracial dating statistics, maybe this isn't that big of a deal, but it's something like all interracial dating between whites and blacks...90% of the time it's a black man and a white woman. So I guess it's kind of a "Waiting to Exhale" sort of situation where maybe the pool of 'good' men to choose from for women is lowered and then women also have the psychological stuff to deal with of thinking that neither black men OR white men want them :\

Sorry if that all sounds harsh, I'm sure there's more sensitive and eloquent ways I could have put things...

[nana_356 0]

there is no need to apologize for your remarks, this is america right I do agree with many of your points, hell many blacks propably agree with many of your points.

[nana_356 0]

"I really wouldn't think that 'that sort of thing' happens that much anymore, and I guess maybe that's part of the problem. If all the black (or any minority I guess) people I know have a list of incidents like that that I just don't know about/that they don't talk about, then it's obviously a lot worse than I and I'd say the majority of us still would think."- Snoweytater

Many blacks feel that its pointless, to speak on these experinces, so they just joke about it, there is a term

(DWB- Driving while black), its when cops pull you over for no reason, and herass. It happens, but no one really cares to listen. Many just think that their overreacting, and I am sure some do, but many dont!

[Jesse and Hema 2]

Let's talk about racing instead.

[SnowyTater 0]

I have this kind of like...positive racism thing going on here, that bothers me

Pretty much all the staffers at my college are black - makes since, downtown urban area, south, it's the poorer rungs 'nonskilled' jobs or whatever, so yeh they would be. So on the one hand it's really cool that the college is here since it probably boosts the economy a lot and now these guys don't have to bus to work or anything like that, can just walk or bike in.

Here's the thing that's kind of uncomfortable that I've been trying to figure out for four years: So almost all the staffers are incredibly nice - they're all very parental or something, and it very much fits that kind of 'mammy' stereotype from Gone With the Wind or something like that, you know? All the cafeteria women are motherly and call you pet names and try to make you eat as much as possible, whereas all the custodian/maintenance sort of men are fatherly and sing on the street and call you pet names etc etc.

It's all very NICE but it's so nice that you get a bit antsy wondering if it's put on. And if it is put on, do they feel like they have to do it, or does the school somehow convince them to do it?

After being around so long now I don't think it's put on which is really cool, like I'm really glad they're relatively happy and must be treated alright in their jobs, even if it is pegged into that stereotypical 'soul song and dance' kind of expression. But the social thing about it that worries me is it reminds me of the studies they did in the 60s, where they found that little black kids thought the white doll was inherently better than the black doll; and also found that black women were nicer/more attentive/more praising of the white kids of their bosses (nannies and housemaids) than their own children - this idea that got into black people's head where they actually sincerely believe white is better.

And I think I still see that a bit sometimes here, where we're put on a pedestal a bit. But at the same time you wonder if when you're not around they hate your guts because they think you wanna be up there, too. It's really weird :\ But I think this is another thing that's going to die off in the next couple generations, at least.

[franklie 0]

I grew up in Santa Ana, CA as the only blonde on the school bus from 2nd grade thru middle school. I never really thought about it until I heard "weda"(spelling) which is used as a derogitory term for white girl in spanish. This was a daily occurance for a long time.

Lisa

FYI Lisa,

The word “güera”, pronounced more or less like “weda”, is not a pejorative term in Mexico. It simply means someone of light skin tone. It is actually one of the terms that my fiancée uses to describe me. She says to her family and friends “mi güero” when referring to me. I have also heard hispanic moms calling their children güera or güero depending on their gender and many times the kids have a darker skin tone than me. “Gringo” OTOH actually can have a much more negative connotation depending on who is saying it.

Regards,

[We_Destiny 1]

I have this kind of like...positive racism thing going on here, that bothers me

Pretty much all the staffers at my college are black - makes since, downtown urban area, south, it's the poorer rungs 'nonskilled' jobs or whatever, so yeh they would be. So on the one hand it's really cool that the college is here since it probably boosts the economy a lot and now these guys don't have to bus to work or anything like that, can just walk or bike in.

Here's the thing that's kind of uncomfortable that I've been trying to figure out for four years: So almost all the staffers are incredibly nice - they're all very parental or something, and it very much fits that kind of 'mammy' stereotype from Gone With the Wind or something like that, you know? All the cafeteria women are motherly and call you pet names and try to make you eat as much as possible, whereas all the custodian/maintenance sort of men are fatherly and sing on the street and call you pet names etc etc.

It's all very NICE but it's so nice that you get a bit antsy wondering if it's put on. And if it is put on, do they feel like they have to do it, or does the school somehow convince them to do it?

After being around so long now I don't think it's put on which is really cool, like I'm really glad they're relatively happy and must be treated alright in their jobs, even if it is pegged into that stereotypical 'soul song and dance' kind of expression. But the social thing about it that worries me is it reminds me of the studies they did in the 60s, where they found that little black kids thought the white doll was inherently better than the black doll; and also found that black women were nicer/more attentive/more praising of the white kids of their bosses (nannies and housemaids) than their own children - this idea that got into black people's head where they actually sincerely believe white is better.

And I think I still see that a bit sometimes here, where we're put on a pedestal a bit. But at the same time you wonder if when you're not around they hate your guts because they think you wanna be up there, too. It's really weird :\ But I think this is another thing that's going to die off in the next couple generations, at least.

WHAT THE????????? DO YOU READ WHAT YOU WRITE?????

[Nikita2Charles 32]

I don't know how to put it, unless you actually experienced it yourself, it's hard to people to understand what racism and discrimination is all about.

I was about 24 when I was working at this new place in Queens NY, my job was to train the older generation on the new technology. One day i was showing this white guy something, and I could feel i wasn't confortable being around me or something. Later on he went on, I can't beleive it you are a new guy and you are doing the same SH!t like me?

The weird thing we were supposed to be IBEW brothers, where where was the brotherhood?

Comments like, you are so young how did you get here? I didn't know you guys were into sciences that's to show you how ignorant some people can be needless to say i didn't stay at the company for long.

True there are some field black folks avoid mostly because of discrimination factors, I was 1 of only 2 blacks from my eng. physics major.

Countless of time I travel on companies trips, and I have limo drivers waiting for me at the aiport, they are always shocked when I walk to them and tell them it's me, one time this gentleman even ask me for ID, sometimes it's just the tone of how somethings is said, So i took a taxi instead.

Was in Richardson TX closed to Dallas a couple of years ago working at a customer site, I VP of engineering was supposed to meet with me, HE passed by 3 or 4 times and didn't say anything, until later on that day at a 1pm conference call, he was asking where's the specially that was to come here from california, and they were telling him, I've been here since morning, countless to say he came by apologizing several times, I am sorry I didn't know you were the One they were sending.

Now it's more underground, kinda institutionalized, something people don't talk about, but it's there. The best thing I have to say about the bay area, specially the sillicon valley, corporate wise, as long as you are contributing to the bottom line and bringing in those projects, they don't really care if you are Black, white asians, or from out of space. hmmm maybe until you start competing on the VP level