Pat Buchanan: Black Americans should be grateful we brought them over on slave ships!

[Heracles 417]

Again - that isn't the point either. Noone is holding people of today directly responsible for their cultural history or the actions of their ancestors - but like it or not we have inherited that history. For better or worse.

I still do not understand what you want white America to do. You say I am missing the point and all you can do is state the obvious. Yes it happened I am not denying, now what?

I'm not sure I see the parallels with Greece, Turkey and the Ottoman empire to what we're talking about here, or indeed why you're so obsessed with it.

What exactly is your point? That you only want to look at superficial details as a pretext to slamming social and ethnic groups?

As I say, I'm not denying the problems endemic to the inner city - I'm just wondering why you don't really want to discuss them as much as point your finger and accuse.

Lol. I like your pick n choose approach. So basically it is okay for Palestinians and Black Americans to hold grudges but not anyone else.

I am not pointing the finger at anyone. What I am saying it is time to move on and stop using history as an excuse. History that anyone born after 1980 was not even part of; yet acts as if it happened yesterday to them personally.

Edited March 25, 2008 by Boo-Yah!

[DeadPoolX 9]

Slavery and Pat B (among others) are a source of major smbarrassment and shame for this country. First for slavery existing in the Land of the Free and then for 21st century pundits to try to spin it as doing subsequent generations a favor.

Yes because the African continent was so peaceful prior to slavery. Last time I checked the news, today, Africans are still butchering each other in various nations there. So let me see what is worse, slavery or genocide...

People have to right to go back home. If I was a slave in somebody else's country I would have left the first chance I got. What do you want white Americans to do in 2008? Should they all take a flogging for the past actions of 1.5% of Americans who owned slaves. Should I look up your ancestor heritage and hold you responsible for their actions?

Again - that isn't the point either. Noone is holding people of today directly responsible for their cultural history or the actions of their ancestors - but like it or not we have inherited that history. For better or worse.

I don't really see the point in harboring so much resentment or hanging on to the past like this. It's good to remember it, but to constantly use it as a "reason" for whatever action or dilemma your group performs or faces is a bit much.

I'm Jewish and I don't blame today's Germans for what their fathers and grandfathers (or in some cases, I suppose great-grandfathers) did to my people. These Germans weren't responsible for it and the Holocaust ended a little over 60 years ago. Compare that to slavery, which is much further removed from those of us living today (either as slave or slave-owner) since it occurred more than 200 years ago! Yet for some reason, African Americans are still clinging to this event and demanding that each successive generation of non-black Americans pay for the damage done to "African Americans as a whole."

As far as I can see, something is amiss there. Besides, if I really wanted to get picky and start claiming "reperations" from countries or people whose ancestors had somehow "wronged the Jews" in the past, I'd had to stake a claim in practically every country across the globe -- especially in Europe and the Middle East.

Am I doing that? No, of course not. It'd be stupid. Do you know why? None of that stuff happened to me! For the most part, I have been fortunate enough to live a very comfortable existance here in the United States. I have never known slavery, pogroms, discrimination or genocide (among other things, all of which have been levied upon the Jews in previous years), so I have no right to ask for anything from any country.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Again - that isn't the point either. Noone is holding people of today directly responsible for their cultural history or the actions of their ancestors - but like it or not we have inherited that history. For better or worse.

I still do not understand what you want white America to do. You say I am missing the point and all you can do is state the obvious. Yes it happened I am not denying, now what?

Exactly now what? We're just talking - I'm not claiming to offer solutions. Neither I might add, are you. If you want to change the debate to tackle solutions to established problems - perhaps you should offer some, rather than what you're currently doing - which is pointing the finger.

In that vein - you've consistently denied sociological differences based on policies that were at one time endorsed by the Federal and State Governments.

I'm not sure I see the parallels with Greece, Turkey and the Ottoman empire to what we're talking about here, or indeed why you're so obsessed with it.

What exactly is your point? That you only want to look at superficial details as a pretext to slamming social and ethnic groups?

As I say, I'm not denying the problems endemic to the inner city - I'm just wondering why you don't really want to discuss them as much as point your finger and accuse.

Lol. I like your pick n choose approach. So basically it is okay for Palestinians and Black Americans to hold grudges but not anyone else.

I am not pointing the finger at anyone. What I am saying it is time to move on and stop using history as an excuse. History that anyone born after 1980 was not even part of; yet acts as if it happened yesterday to them personally.

Pick and choose? I ignored your example because its a false choice - and a totally different set of ethical considerations.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

I'm Jewish and I don't blame today's Germans for what their fathers and grandfathers (or in some cases, I suppose great-grandfathers) did to my people. These Germans weren't responsible for it and the Holocaust ended a little over 60 years ago. Compare that to slavery, which is much further removed from those of us living today (either as slave or slave-owner) since it occurred more than 200 years ago! Yet for some reason, African Americans are still clinging to this event and demanding that each successive generation of non-black Americans pay for the damage done to "African Americans as a whole."

As far as I can see, something is amiss there. Besides, if I really wanted to get picky and start claiming "reperations" from countries or people whose ancestors had somehow "wronged the Jews" in the past, I'd had to stake a claim in practically every country across the globe -- especially in Europe and the Middle East.

Am I doing that? No, of course not. It'd be stupid. Do you know why? None of that stuff happened to me! For the most part, I have been fortunate enough to live a very comfortable existance here in the United States. I have never known slavery, pogroms, discrimination or genocide (among other things, all of which have been levied upon the Jews in previous years), so I have no right to ask for anything from any country.

Whether it happened to you personally or not - there is a heck of lot of sensitivity toward anti-semitism, perceived or experienced in the Jewish community - and indeed towards the holocaust.

I'm not talking about reparations - and that's a controversial argument that isn't shared by many. I merely brought up history and sociology because BY never seems to want to discuss what are established sociological differences.

[Alex+R 0]

LOL. People are so stupid and short-sighted. VJ reminds me that the human race will probably implode on itself. Oh yes it's not very logical to think slavery has any repercussions on life today. Unless you walk out of your geodesic dome-cave and open your eyes and take out your earplugs.

[Peikko 1,575]

The fact that people talk about black, white, brown - whatever Americans really says it all to me. Communities/people are identified by their racial appearance first. Until that changes, I think the problems will continue.

[Empress of Groovy 373]

Slavery and Pat B (among others) are a source of major smbarrassment and shame for this country. First for slavery existing in the Land of the Free and then for 21st century pundits to try to spin it as doing subsequent generations a favor.

Yes because the African continent was so peaceful prior to slavery. Last time I checked the news, today, Africans are still butchering each other in various nations there. So let me see what is worse, slavery or genocide...

People have to right to go back home. If I was a slave in somebody else's country I would have left the first chance I got. What do you want white Americans to do in 2008? Should they all take a flogging for the past actions of 1.5% of Americans who owned slaves. Should I look up your ancestor heritage and hold you responsible for their actions?

Again - that isn't the point either. Noone is holding people of today directly responsible for their cultural history or the actions of their ancestors - but like it or not we have inherited that history. For better or worse.

I don't really see the point in harboring so much resentment or hanging on to the past like this. It's good to remember it, but to constantly use it as a "reason" for whatever action or dilemma your group performs or faces is a bit much.

I'm Jewish and I don't blame today's Germans for what their fathers and grandfathers (or in some cases, I suppose great-grandfathers) did to my people. These Germans weren't responsible for it and the Holocaust ended a little over 60 years ago. Compare that to slavery, which is much further removed from those of us living today (either as slave or slave-owner) since it occurred more than 200 years ago! Yet for some reason, African Americans are still clinging to this event and demanding that each successive generation of non-black Americans pay for the damage done to "African Americans as a whole."

As far as I can see, something is amiss there. Besides, if I really wanted to get picky and start claiming "reperations" from countries or people whose ancestors had somehow "wronged the Jews" in the past, I'd had to stake a claim in practically every country across the globe -- especially in Europe and the Middle East.

Am I doing that? No, of course not. It'd be stupid. Do you know why? None of that stuff happened to me! For the most part, I have been fortunate enough to live a very comfortable existance here in the United States. I have never known slavery, pogroms, discrimination or genocide (among other things, all of which have been levied upon the Jews in previous years), so I have no right to ask for anything from any country.

"Colored-only" water fountains, not being able to sit at the lunch counter, and having to sit at the back of the bus are all more recent than some would like to think. Certainly my parents are old enough to remember when this was the norm in some parts of the country.

Many people would like to forget about these events in relatively recent history and adopt a "get over it" mentality as if church burnings stopped 150 years ago.

I admit that I don't know enough about the actual reparations demands that some groups are making. I think that the right likes to point to this as if it's part of the mainstream African American movement, and it isn't. There are some compelling stories, mainly from the South, about black families in the early 1900s and 1910s who were driven out of certain towns under threat of death. Their houses and property were stolen from them. Some of their descendants, in seeking some type of compensation, are being told, "Well, there's not a whole lot we can do about this now!" even though local records clearly show that the land was essentially stolen. One of the (white) lawyers representing the county admitted that his family's wealth largely came from landholdings. That is, the same person whose argument is basically, "Sorry, this was a long time ago" will inherit a house and land that have been in his family since the 1880s. Long time ago indeed.

The fact is, racism is still rampant in this country. Fortunately, black people aren't being run off their land anymore, but come on. The joke about being pulled over for "driving while Black" (was that Chris Rock?) has its basis in reality. I'm sure that every black person in this country has stories about being on the receiving end of shabby treatment, or suspicious looks, or even verbal of physical assault because of what they look like. To compare the experiences of black people with those of, say, Jews in America or the Irish in Boston in the late 1800s is ludicrous. If you're white, your experience is going to be different. That's just the way it is right now.

It's easy to say, "Well, if they'd just get it together and remove the negative associations, there wouldn't be racism!" as if it's going to happen overnight. A lot of people would just as soon forget that the civil rights movement happened only a couple of generations ago. Of course there's going to be simmering hostility. How would you feel if you knew your grandmother or mother had been spit on because of what she looked like, or your dad beaten with a baton for "walking while black"? I know I'd be pissed off.

I was in Holland about 10 years ago in a bar (would you believe), and two drunk American guys were talking with a couple of German girls about the Holocaust. The American guys were being sort of abusive, asking how it was possible that such a thing could happen in modern times, what is it about the German mentality that allowed this to happen. I couldn't help but think of a couple of documentaries I'd seen not long before, one about the Montgomery bus boycott in the 1950s and, perhaps even more disturbing because of its recency, footage of the busing riots in Boston in the 1970s. Kids' parents were throwing rocks at buses full of black kids because they didn't want the schools integrated! This happened in my lifetime in one of the most progressive cities in the country. !!! Yeah, get over it, it's ancient history.

Just some thoughts...

[Heracles 417]

LOL. People are so stupid and short-sighted. VJ reminds me that the human race will probably implode on itself. Oh yes it's not very logical to think slavery has any repercussions on life today. Unless you walk out of your geodesic dome-cave and open your eyes and take out your earplugs.

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. Yes, I must be "short-sighted" because I do not fall for the BS that certain people from the black community use over and over again to justify their actions and circumstances.

Maybe you can lead the way by donating your money and wealth to the 'victims of slavery'.

It is not the human race that will implode but America itself by continuing on with this poor me blame game. It isn't my country turning into a ghetto.

[HAL 9000 96]

Guys do you need me to bring the Kleenex. Don't give me this ####### that someone black born after the 80's had it hard and was suppressed. Funny how the richest woman in America does not have this issue.

I am sure you guys hate Bill Cosby and his opinions. After all it is whiteys fault that 75% of black American children in 2008 are born to single mothers. Do you think being raised like this has nothing to do with a kids future prosperity and gang activity? We can talk about the past 50, 100, 200 years all you like but I prefer to focus on the year we live in 2008.

This is a case again of not really paying attention to an argument for the sake of disagreement.

Where your logic is completely out of touch with reality is where you assume that the present is not fed by the past.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

LOL. People are so stupid and short-sighted. VJ reminds me that the human race will probably implode on itself. Oh yes it's not very logical to think slavery has any repercussions on life today. Unless you walk out of your geodesic dome-cave and open your eyes and take out your earplugs.

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. Yes, I must be "short-sighted" because I do not fall for the BS that certain people from the black community use over and over again to justify their actions and circumstances.

Maybe you can lead the way by donating your money and wealth to the 'victims of slavery'.

It is not the human race that will implode but America itself by continuing on with this poor me blame game. It isn't my country turning into a ghetto.

Why don't you donate all your money to Bill Cosby, finger-pointing talk show hosts or right-wing fringe groups?

I see what's going on now. You fixate on "certain people" as an excuse to ignore a mainstream debate.

[HAL 9000 96]

Once again - you're missing what we're saying. You have to understand or at least be aware of the past to make sense of what is going on now. Its not as though the civil rights movement was that long ago - within living memory in fact. Can we achieve an egalitarian society within the space of 40-50 years? It seems rather optimistic IMO.

Noone is denying, justifying or excusing inner city problems.

Missing or ignoring. Much like the situation in Palestine I am not interested in the semantics of who is to blame. If we all thought along those lines the world would be at war again because somebody has stepped on somebody else's toes at one stage or another.

Greece and Turkey, for example, should start a war as Greece should reclaim Constantinople. Would you support that and have the same compassion for the Greeks considering the atrocities committed by the Ottoman empire there?

We are discussing race relations in the USA.

Of course you are not interested in the blame game... you just want everyone to drop history and live like nothing ever happened. LIke we've said... easier said than done.

[HAL 9000 96]

Slavery and Pat B (among others) are a source of major smbarrassment and shame for this country. First for slavery existing in the Land of the Free and then for 21st century pundits to try to spin it as doing subsequent generations a favor.

Yes because the African continent was so peaceful prior to slavery. Last time I checked the news, today, Africans are still butchering each other in various nations there. So let me see what is worse, slavery or genocide...

People have to right to go back home. If I was a slave in somebody else's country I would have left the first chance I got. What do you want white Americans to do in 2008? Should they all take a flogging for the past actions of 1.5% of Americans who owned slaves. Should I look up your ancestor heritage and hold you responsible for their actions?

Once again its a failure to understand history. You must mean you did not remember the part where MODERN African genocide and warfare has been based in great part as a disastrous result of European Colonialism? Much like the Middle East if you so choose to consider another effect elsewhere.

[Heracles 417]

Yeah, get over it, it's ancient history.

I am the first of my family to step foot on this continent. Should I too have to pay / suffer for the consequences of the past. Be it the 60's or 1800.

When there was a colored-only fountain policy why didn't people just pack up and leave. Why doesn't Wright go back to where he came from since he hates the white man and Europeans so much.

[HAL 9000 96]

Slavery and Pat B (among others) are a source of major smbarrassment and shame for this country. First for slavery existing in the Land of the Free and then for 21st century pundits to try to spin it as doing subsequent generations a favor.

Yes because the African continent was so peaceful prior to slavery. Last time I checked the news, today, Africans are still butchering each other in various nations there. So let me see what is worse, slavery or genocide...

People have to right to go back home. If I was a slave in somebody else's country I would have left the first chance I got. What do you want white Americans to do in 2008? Should they all take a flogging for the past actions of 1.5% of Americans who owned slaves. Should I look up your ancestor heritage and hold you responsible for their actions?

Again - that isn't the point either. Noone is holding people of today directly responsible for their cultural history or the actions of their ancestors - but like it or not we have inherited that history. For better or worse.

Correct. Inheritance is a ####### is it not?

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Once again - you're missing what we're saying. You have to understand or at least be aware of the past to make sense of what is going on now. Its not as though the civil rights movement was that long ago - within living memory in fact. Can we achieve an egalitarian society within the space of 40-50 years? It seems rather optimistic IMO.

Noone is denying, justifying or excusing inner city problems.

Missing or ignoring. Much like the situation in Palestine I am not interested in the semantics of who is to blame. If we all thought along those lines the world would be at war again because somebody has stepped on somebody else's toes at one stage or another.

Greece and Turkey, for example, should start a war as Greece should reclaim Constantinople. Would you support that and have the same compassion for the Greeks considering the atrocities committed by the Ottoman empire there?

We are discussing race relations in the USA.

Of course you are not interested in the blame game... you just want everyone to drop history and live like nothing ever happened. LIke we've said... easier said than done.

Going from discussing sociological differences in the same country, to discussing whether or not one country should start a shooting war against another, totally different country is a rather substantial jump in logic.

As I say - different situation entirely. Different ethical considerations. But then this doesn't need to be pointed out - its obvious.