Including passport pages?

[Mike-Mely 0]

I would also say that looking at this in its full version it seems to refer more to offical documents and there relative closeness to being absolute proof of something than it does to the evidence we are asked to submit as petitioners that is more of an unoffical nature- IE(photos, reciepts, etc)

Primary and Secondary Evidence . Closely related to the best evidence rule is the concept of primary and secondary evidence. Primary evidence is evidence which on its face proves a fact. For example, the divorce certificate is primary evidence of a divorce. Secondary evidence is evidence which makes it more likely that the fact sought to be proven by the primary evidence is true, but cannot do so on its own face, without any external reference. In the above example, church records showing that an individual was divorced at a certain time would be secondary evidence of the divorce. You will often encounter situations in which primary evidence is unavailable. This gives rise to a presumption of ineligibility , which is the applicant or petitioner’s burden to overcome. Title 8 CFR 103.2(B)(2) sets out the procedures relating to unavailability of documents. A petitioner or applicant cannot simply assert that the primary evidence does not exist. The absence of a primary record, instead, must be proven either:

• By a written statement from the appropriate issuing authority attesting to the fact that no record exists or can be located, or that the record sought was part of some segment of records which were lost or destroyed; or

• By evidence (such as an affidavit) "that repeated good faith attempts were made to obtain the required document or record."

[Tyler and Agus 1]

I just went to Staples today and used a color copier to copy my passport. It works great -- very detailed copies are produced. I would make color copies thus making your story "believable".

#### happens... if you provide all pages and have supporting evidence then you'll be fine S

[mox 298]

I would still say its a matter of opinion as to which catagory photos or recipts fall into, as either one could be faked.

I don't mean to sound crass, but...well...you can say whatever you want, but that doesn't make it true. Photos are secondary evidence. Period. You can include primary evidence in your packet without including secondary evidence, and you'll be fine. If you only include secondary evidence, and not primary evidence, guaranteed you'll be RFE'd. So it's not opinion. It's factual, and I just quoted chapter and verse for you to prove it.

[mox 298]

I would also say that looking at this in its full version it seems to refer more to offical documents and there relative closeness to being absolute proof of something than it does to the evidence we are asked to submit as petitioners that is more of an unoffical nature- IE(photos, reciepts, etc)

I'm not sure why you're fighting this. Do a VJ search. The question has been asked dozens, perhaps hundreds of times, and it's been answered dozens and dozens of times. You can analyze the wording to your heart's content, but it doesn't change the fact that this is the way it is. Don't go confusing new filers by trying to equate the two types of evidence. You'll only get them in trouble.

Edited March 20, 2008 by mox

[caityrose 0]

Hey everyone,

Ok- I took another look at my passport last night, and while most of the stamps are not legible, I'm considering making copies of my passport pages anyway. So- one last question before I do so: Do I have to make copies of every single page even if there are no stamps on that page? And do I have to make a copy of pages 2-5 which just include information for me about traveling? AHHH I just want to send this petition!!

Thank you!!

[*JG* 2]

Copy the passport pages and if they are too illegible to read, put a note with them stating why. I think they might question if the passport pages are not included.

[motu 6]

Well, I'm including plenty of pictures- whether they be primary or secondary- the adjudicator can decide what my pictures are worth. I bought a cellphone while in Mexico though, so my receipt should be able to prove that my fiance and I are in love and our relationship is real, right? haha, just kidding. sorry- I'm feeling quite stressed this evening as I put the finishing touches on the petition.

Do not stress about it. I did not include any copies of passport pages/ receipts/boarding passes etc. All I sent was two pictures of us together and a copy of my itinerary - I used one line on I129 to describe how we met. So at least in my case - that was enough!

You can only send what you have so don't worry about it, send what you have and what makes you comfortable. As you go through this process you will realize that most people feel compelled to send some or many things as it makes them feel 'happy or justified or smug' with their quantity or quality of proof - how the examiner sees it is another matter. So don't worry - have another Pacifico and Good Luck

[Mike-Mely 0]

I would still say its a matter of opinion as to which catagory photos or recipts fall into, as either one could be faked.

I don't mean to sound crass, but...well...you can say whatever you want, but that doesn't make it true. Photos are secondary evidence. Period. You can include primary evidence in your packet without including secondary evidence, and you'll be fine. If you only include secondary evidence, and not primary evidence, guaranteed you'll be RFE'd. So it's not opinion. It's factual, and I just quoted chapter and verse for you to prove it.

Well what your saying is only your opinion or maybe the opinion of others as well, thats what you seem to fail to realize. Just because you say it or its your opinon doesnt make it fact either. You have provided nothing that offically states it to be fact. You do this quite often-present your opinion of things as fact. If anyone is confusing other VJers its you.

[mox 298]

Well what your saying is only your opinion or maybe the opinion of others as well, thats what you seem to fail to realize. Just because you say it or its your opinon doesnt make it fact either. You have provided nothing that offically states it to be fact.

What part of the Adjudicator's Field Manual do you believe is my opinion?

Once again--and I only say this for the benefit of new filers, because it's obvious that you can't even be bothered to do the basic research--photos are secondary evidence. Receipts, hotel bills, boarding passes, and other written, verifiable documentation are primary evidence.

Mike-Mely, I've already cited a source supporting my argument. If you would care to cite a source supporting your argument that it's all one and the same, please share.

You do this quite often-present your opinion of things as fact. If anyone is confusing other VJers its you.

Care to back that up? Or can you not be bothered to research that little bon mot either?

[Mike-Mely 0]

Well what your saying is only your opinion or maybe the opinion of others as well, thats what you seem to fail to realize. Just because you say it or its your opinon doesnt make it fact either. You have provided nothing that offically states it to be fact.

What part of the Adjudicator's Field Manual do you believe is my opinion?

Once again--and I only say this for the benefit of new filers, because it's obvious that you can't even be bothered to do the basic research--photos are secondary evidence. Receipts, hotel bills, boarding passes, and other written, verifiable documentation are primary evidence.

Mike-Mely, I've already cited a source supporting my argument. If you would care to cite a source supporting your argument that it's all one and the same, please share.

You do this quite often-present your opinion of things as fact. If anyone is confusing other VJers its you.

Care to back that up? Or can you not be bothered to research that little bon mot either?

This is what you provided from the AFR on the USCIS website.

"Primary evidence is evidence which on its face proves a fact. Secondary evidence is evidence which makes it more likely that the fact sought to be proven by the primary evidence is true, but cannot do so on its own face, without any external reference."

No where does it say anything about what types of evidence fall into which catagory.

It does not say anything there that travel docs, stamps, etc are primary and photos are secondary. This is something that you and possibly others have decided in your mind. That does not make it fact. You saying its a fact, Period does not either. The interpretation of this statement would be argueable among lawyers who could then only render an opinion albiet an educated one as to how this applies to the evidence we have been asked to provide.

Please read post #22 in this thread-how does this go along with your guareentee that evidence of this nature will return an RFE?

[mox 298]

You do this quite often-present your opinion of things as fact. If anyone is confusing other VJers its you.

Once again, either put up or shut up. Either back this statement up with factual evidence, or retract it.

This is what you provided from the AFR on the USCIS website.

"Primary evidence is evidence which on its face proves a fact. Secondary evidence is evidence which makes it more likely that the fact sought to be proven by the primary evidence is true, but cannot do so on its own face, without any external reference."

No where does it say anything about what types of evidence fall into which catagory.

Once again, from the Adjudicator's Field Manual:

Primary evidence is evidence which on its face proves a fact.

...

Secondary evidence is evidence which makes it more likely that the fact sought to be proven by the primary evidence is true, but cannot do so on its own face, without any external reference.

It does not say anything there that travel docs, stamps, etc are primary and photos are secondary. This is something that you and possibly others have decided in your mind. That does not make it fact. You saying its a fact, Period does not either. The interpretation of this statement would be argueable among lawyers who could then only render an opinion albiet an educated one as to how this applies to the evidence we have been asked to provide.

*sigh*

Here's a photo.

On the back of the photo the happy couple have written their names, that this picture was taken in Lisbon, Portugal, and a date of July 10, 2007. Or maybe it says that the picture was taken in Huatulco, Mexico on February 22, 2008. Or how about Manilla, PI on December 3, 2006. Now ask yourself...is this photograph "evidence which on its face proves a fact."? Or is it evidence that can't stand on its own "without any external reference."?

Take your time.

Please read post #22 in this thread-how does this go along with your guareentee that evidence of this nature will return an RFE?

Because I have read cases on VJ where people only sent in photos and were RFE'd, which is what you should be doing (reading that is) before taking such a silly position. Now I'm sorry, but I'm not going to do any more of your research for you, so if you can't be bothered to research the matter yourself, you really just need to take your ball and go home.

[Mike-Mely 0]

You do this quite often-present your opinion of things as fact. If anyone is confusing other VJers its you.

Once again, either put up or shut up. Either back this statement up with factual evidence, or retract it.

This is what you provided from the AFR on the USCIS website.

"Primary evidence is evidence which on its face proves a fact. Secondary evidence is evidence which makes it more likely that the fact sought to be proven by the primary evidence is true, but cannot do so on its own face, without any external reference."

No where does it say anything about what types of evidence fall into which catagory.

Once again, from the Adjudicator's Field Manual:

Primary evidence is evidence which on its face proves a fact.

...

Secondary evidence is evidence which makes it more likely that the fact sought to be proven by the primary evidence is true, but cannot do so on its own face, without any external reference.

It does not say anything there that travel docs, stamps, etc are primary and photos are secondary. This is something that you and possibly others have decided in your mind. That does not make it fact. You saying its a fact, Period does not either. The interpretation of this statement would be argueable among lawyers who could then only render an opinion albiet an educated one as to how this applies to the evidence we have been asked to provide.

*sigh*

Here's a photo.

On the back of the photo the happy couple have written their names, that this picture was taken in Lisbon, Portugal, and a date of July 10, 2007. Or maybe it says that the picture was taken in Huatulco, Mexico on February 22, 2008. Or how about Manilla, PI on December 3, 2006. Now ask yourself...is this photograph "evidence which on its face proves a fact."? Or is it evidence that can't stand on its own "without any external reference."?

Take your time.

Please read post #22 in this thread-how does this go along with your guareentee that evidence of this nature will return an RFE?

Because I have read cases on VJ where people only sent in photos and were RFE'd, which is what you should be doing (reading that is) before taking such a silly position. Now I'm sorry, but I'm not going to do any more of your research for you, so if you can't be bothered to research the matter yourself, you really just need to take your ball and go home.

1.Deciding what is primary and secondary evidence.

2.Guarenteeing that sending what youve decided is secondary evidence will get an RFE, when #22 disproves that.

3.The little charts I have seen you provide that say what will happen if you send or dont send certain kinds of evidence, once again disproved by post #22

Theres three examples of you presenting your opinion as fact just related to this subject.

Hows that?

As far as your photo example goes, I could make up a hotel reciept on the computer as well that would be just as convincing, and that according to you would be primary evidence.

All of these various types of evidence could be faked.

Nice non-answer and deflection of my direct question about your gaurentee there. I like how you discount the VJer who posted in this thread for all to see and reference ambigous "cases you have read"

Fortunately, like what is primary and what is secondary evidence, you dont get to determine what I do or dont do, or where I play ball and when I go home!

[mox 298]

1.Deciding what is primary and secondary evidence.

2.Guarenteeing that sending what youve decided is secondary evidence will get an RFE, when #22 disproves that.

3.The little charts I have seen you provide that say what will happen if you send or dont send certain kinds of evidence, once again disproved by post #22

So by saying that I "do this quite often-present your opinion of things as fact." you really mean I do this quite often in this thread only. Okey-dokey then.

And...charts? I make charts? I don't think I make charts. Please cite a source. You just accused me of making references to "ambigous 'cases you have read.'" Be the bigger man then. Post a link to a post of mine that you are referring to.

As far as your photo example goes, I could make up a hotel reciept on the computer as well that would be just as convincing, and that according to you would be primary evidence.

Noooooo...that, according to me and the government, would be fraud.

All of these various types of evidence could be faked.

Gee, d'ya think? That's why it's called primary evidence. Because it's verifiable. If anyone actually ever followed up on it then you'd be caught out. There's no way to follow up on a photo like the one I have shown above. (that photo, by the way, was shot it Mauritius. How do I know this is true? I don't. I only have the word of the blogger who posted it. Because it's not verifiable.

Nice non-answer and deflection of my direct question about your gaurentee there. I like how you discount the VJer who posted in this thread for all to see and reference ambigous "cases you have read"

Prove me wrong then. You've criticized me and accused me of fabricating information, and yet you have not cited any sources to prove your claims. Once again, either put up or shut up.

And seriously...I'd love to see the "chart" posts you're referring to. Because the only charts I've ever posted have been waiting times for filers, which had nothing to do with evidence. If you need help using the search utility, there are a lot of VJ'ers around here who I'm sure would be willing to help.