I want my oligarch!

[mox 298]

So I stand firm that you need some money, the kind of money the average American makes in America, that guy who is living the American dream, owns his home, has two cars, and goes on vacation once a year. None of which happen for the majority of Russians no matter how much or how hard they work.

Thus this crazy notion of stability you guys have made up, really just boils down money. And stability is certainly worth sacrificing for.

Well...duh. Once you get past the bottom layer of Maslow's hierarchy of needs, everything else is about money unless you happen to live in the wilderness, hunt your own food, and build your own dwelling. This isn't just for Russian women, it's for everyone. Of course it all boils down to money.

I guess I don't understand the point you're making, unless it's "money makes the world go 'round."

Edited March 21, 2008 by mox

[slim 1,514]

Sounds like a lot of them wind up with exactly what they were trying to avoid...destitute and out on the street with kids and no alimony, all because another woman did to her what she did to the previous woman.

Just like the movie Showgirls. "Someone younger, who wants it more, will always be there to push you down the stairs."

Basically it boils down to the girl reaching that point in her life where she realizes it's not the money that's going to make her happy. But, to most Russian girls, even a student in the U.S. is rich compared to a guy in Russia with a decent job. Sure, the 100,000 internet profiled ladies may be looking for some stability, but even they know having an American student working two part time jobs is going to provide more stability than the average Russian guy working full time.

And to say that Russia has become "stable" is completely inaccurate. Sure, it has now. But, every Russian woman can remember a time in her life where she was unsure of how she was going to care for herself and children in the future. That hasn't happened here for a long time. It was less than 20 years ago in Russia and is just now starting to get more stable. That's not exactly a guarantee for the longterm stability that is "nice" when choosing a mate and place to set up shop for rearing a family.

Bottom line is stability is created by money. To say a woman wants stability but not necessarily money can be accurate, but how does she get that stability without having some money? By having a higher stability base. One like what we have here in the U.S. where even a student has a place to live, a car, food to eat, etc. etc. etc. And not only that, but they have the potential to, very easily, secure an environment that is conducive to raising a family very easily and without much effort or sacrifice. That simply does not exist in Russia due to the history and the unguaranteed future. The future of the U.S. is unquestionable.

Higher per-capita net worth. Plain and simple.

And as I always must argue.... 7th grade biology class. Women look for the most stable environment to create/complete a family, men look for their best looking option that agrees with them to do that.

[eekee 182]

I think in some ways it can be construed as a feminist issue as well... Sure, my guy makes a good salary for russia and would do even better in the states, but i never thought of finding someone to marry as a question of financial stability. I don't ever want to have to rely on a man financially.

[Buck and Natalia 0]

Kind of a sad thread. Sure Russian women want financial stability and the chaos of Russia in the 1990's, for those that remember those times, probably heightened this need........... much like it did for a generation of Depression era American women. As for the "gold-digging", this has always been present in all cultures has long as man has been on the face of this planet. In fact, in Victorian times, most English women married exactly for position and wealth. There was no secret about it. This was understood and expected by both sexes.

All I can say is that as the years tick by, financial stability becomes a very hollow substitute if love and passion is not present in the marriage.

Buck

[visaveteran1 33]

Stability is a quality of life that actually can not be bought. I hear the arguments that money buys stability but many many couples divorce with pockets full of money. Look at Paul McCartney's situation. Money can, paradoxically perhaps, destabilize a relationship when it becomes too important or too central to daily life. I still believe that a degree of challenge and struggle builds character and grounds people. Our own Russian women seem to confirm this fact. Money and the easy life will, more likely than not, push people apart and distract them from being close of heart, body and spirit.

Russian women want stable men and stable relationships. Such men seem difficult to find in Russia...from the ugly remnants of past Soviet ways; from cheap vodka and cognac; from a lack of leadership and growth opportunities; from a spiritually bankrupted male population, from the baggage their father's left them. You can add to the list if you'd like.

The kindly, true blue women of Russia (the majority I think) are not looking for gold or oligarchs or the easy life...they want real men--hearty, decisive, strong of character, sexual, generous with affection and praise, sober, emotionally available...and sometimes being a good old-fashioned dad. My wife has joked that she will be happy with me as long as we don't have to live in a "cardboard box" in America. But I know it's much more than that she's looking for from me...I see it when she looks at me or talks to me about our future life together. I see she has claimed me as her special man and that honors me, and challenges me to step up and be masculine in a good way for her.

Russian women, unlike most of the rest of modern women, are still following the traditional ways that our grandmothers followed. I accept that way of being...where the man is the head of the house...even if it pisses off my American sisters. I don't have to have it that way but I think many traditional Russian woman want it that way...and they want to relax and be cozy and comfortable with their man...a dependable man who won't desert them with young children...who won't beat them in a drunken state...who won't slip off to the local sauna for a quickie with his current under 30 lover. If they can find such a man, he will be awarded the key to the castle. He will be a king of sorts. And he will know what it feels like to be honored and revered as a man and a husband.

Now, we know Russian women are not passive or weak or child-like and won't be taken lightly...but they will stand shoulder-to-shoulder with us when we are at our best, and strong. They will be the queen of the house and strong in that unique Russian way...strong but feminine. Unlike our American sisters, they are not at all confused about who does what in marriage. And our Russian women don't need to be "self-actualized" and liberated. They need a partnership with a dependable stable man...and that's refreshingly simple.

My brothers, let's not misuse this opportunity. Let's put away our money and material wealth and the male-female relationships we have passively accepted over the last 30 years...and we tried to function in when we had American wives and girlfriends. That's behind us and now we need to step up and be the kind of men our Russian ladies want and need. We need to walk the talk...and create a new possibility with these unique women we've found in Mother Russia.

These Russian-American marriages are a grand experiment here in the USA, and I personally feel the gravity and significance of what we're trying to do...something beyond just another relationship...it feels bigger than that to me.

[eekee 182]

You can idealize Russian women all you want, but the reality is quite different. From what i've seen, it is these relations between men and women which CREATES men who are forever children. The men are never expected to do anything and their mothers always treat them like they're five years old, thus they have trouble taking responsibility for themselves. Hopefully this will change, but it's been this way for a long time. It was this way in my own family.

And to whoever said an American student makes more money than a Russian guy with a career... That's not really correct. Maybe in the provinces, but in Moscow and Petersburg that's not true at all.

Stability is a quality of life that actually can not be bought. I hear the arguments that money buys stability but many many couples divorce with pockets full of money. Look at Paul McCartney's situation. Money can, paradoxically perhaps, destabilize a relationship when it becomes too important or too central to daily life. I still believe that a degree of challenge and struggle builds character and grounds people. Our own Russian women seem to confirm this fact. Money and the easy life will, more likely than not, push people apart and distract them from being close of heart, body and spirit.

Russian women want stable men and stable relationships. Such men seem difficult to find in Russia...from the ugly remnants of past Soviet ways; from cheap vodka and cognac; from a lack of leadership and growth opportunities; from a spiritually bankrupted male population, from the baggage their father's left them. You can add to the list if you'd like.

The kindly, true blue women of Russia (the majority I think) are not looking for gold or oligarchs or the easy life...they want real men--hearty, decisive, strong of character, sexual, generous with affection and praise, sober, emotionally available...and sometimes being a good old-fashioned dad. My wife has joked that she will be happy with me as long as we don't have to live in a "cardboard box" in America. But I know it's much more than that she's looking for from me...I see it when she looks at me or talks to me about our future life together. I see she has claimed me as her special man and that honors me, and challenges me to step up and be masculine in a good way for her.

Russian women, unlike most of the rest of modern women, are still following the traditional ways that our grandmothers followed. I accept that way of being...where the man is the head of the house...even if it pisses off my American sisters. I don't have to have it that way but I think many traditional Russian woman want it that way...and they want to relax and be cozy and comfortable with their man...a dependable man who won't desert them with young children...who won't beat them in a drunken state...who won't slip off to the local sauna for a quickie with his current under 30 lover. If they can find such a man, he will be awarded the key to the castle. He will be a king of sorts. And he will know what it feels like to be honored and revered as a man and a husband.

Now, we know Russian women are not passive or weak or child-like and won't be taken lightly...but they will stand shoulder-to-shoulder with us when we are at our best, and strong. They will be the queen of the house and strong in that unique Russian way...strong but feminine. Unlike our American sisters, they are not at all confused about who does what in marriage. And our Russian women don't need to be "self-actualized" and liberated. They need a partnership with a dependable stable man...and that's refreshingly simple.

My brothers, let's not misuse this opportunity. Let's put away our money and material wealth and the male-female relationships we have passively accepted over the last 30 years...and we tried to function in when we had American wives and girlfriends. That's behind us and now we need to step up and be the kind of men our Russian ladies want and need. We need to walk the talk...and create a new possibility with these unique women we've found in Mother Russia.

These Russian-American marriages are a grand experiment here in the USA, and I personally feel the gravity and significance of what we're trying to do...something beyond just another relationship...it feels bigger than that to me.

[visaveteran1 33]

You can idealize Russian women all you want, but the reality is quite different. From what i've seen, it is these relations between men and women which CREATES men who are forever children. The men are never expected to do anything and their mothers always treat them like they're five years old, thus they have trouble taking responsibility for themselves. Hopefully this will change, but it's been this way for a long time. It was this way in my own family.

And to whoever said an American student makes more money than a Russian guy with a career... That's not really correct. Maybe in the provinces, but in Moscow and Petersburg that's not true at all.

Stability is a quality of life that actually can not be bought. I hear the arguments that money buys stability but many many couples divorce with pockets full of money. Look at Paul McCartney's situation. Money can, paradoxically perhaps, destabilize a relationship when it becomes too important or too central to daily life. I still believe that a degree of challenge and struggle builds character and grounds people. Our own Russian women seem to confirm this fact. Money and the easy life will, more likely than not, push people apart and distract them from being close of heart, body and spirit.

Russian women want stable men and stable relationships. Such men seem difficult to find in Russia...from the ugly remnants of past Soviet ways; from cheap vodka and cognac; from a lack of leadershipgr and growth opportunities; from a spiritually bankrupted male population, from the baggage their father's left them. You can add to the list if you'd like.

The kindly, true blue women of Russia (the majority I think) are not looking for gold or oligarchs or the easy life...they want real men--hearty, decisive, strong of character, sexual, generous with affection and praise, sober, emotionally available...and sometimes being a good old-fashioned dad. My wife has joked that she will be happy with me as long as we don't have to live in a "cardboard box" in America. But I know it's much more than that she's looking for from me...I see it when she looks at me or talks to me about our future life together. I see she has claimed me as her special man and that honors me, and challenges me to step up and be masculine in a good way for her.

Russian women, unlike most of the rest of modern women, are still following the traditional ways that our grandmothers followed. I accept that way of being...where the man is the head of the house...even if it pisses off my American sisters. I don't have to have it that way but I think many traditional Russian woman want it that way...and they want to relax and be cozy and comfortable with their man...a dependable man who won't desert them with young children...who won't beat them in a drunken state...who won't slip off to the local sauna for a quickie with his current under 30 lover. If they can find such a man, he will be awarded the key to the castle. He will be a king of sorts. And he will know what it feels like to be honored and revered as a man and a husband.

Now, we know Russian women are not passive or weak or child-like and won't be taken lightly...but they will stand shoulder-to-shoulder with us when we are at our best, and strong. They will be the queen of the house and strong in that unique Russian way...strong but feminine. Unlike our American sisters, they are not at all confused about who does what in marriage. And our Russian women don't need to be "self-actualized" and liberated. They need a partnership with a dependable stable man...and that's refreshingly simple.

My brothers, let's not misuse this opportunity. Let's put away our money and material wealth and the male-female relationships we have passively accepted over the last 30 years...and we tried to function in when we had American wives and girlfriends. That's behind us and now we need to step up and be the kind of men our Russian ladies want and need. We need to walk the talk...and create a new possibility with these unique women we've found in Mother Russia.

These Russian-American marriages are a grand experiment here in the USA, and I personally feel the gravity and significance of what we're trying to do...something beyond just another relationship...it feels bigger than that to me.

Neither one of us are sociologists but i would argue that blaming women for the problem with Russian men is an over-simplification of a complex issue. I would say the absence of a father in the home has been shown to be devastating to the sons who grow up in such a family in the USA. And frequently men in prisons are shown to come from fatherless homes. I suspect it's equally bad in Russia and probably far worse given that divorce is at 80% in Russia. And that does not count in the large number of common law style marriages when there is no legal marriage.

I don't idealize Russian women per se but in comparison to other non Russian women I have known. I'll leave it at that.

I personally think (and hope) that many Russian women can stand next to a strong man, and the relationship finds balance and evenness...and maybe even long-term happiness. The relationship's roles are clear and incongruity, and there is no competition for power and authority.

In your case, my understanding is you're not Russian but Belarusian...and i don't know if you can fairly compare the two cultures.

[mox 298]

Neither one of us are sociologists but i would argue that blaming women for the problem with Russian men is an over-simplification of a complex issue.

I'll even take that one step further and say that entire volumes could be written on the problems with Russian men. Broken homes, alcoholism, drugs, a fragmented economy coupled with the pressures of being *the* provider, the ongoing repercussions of Afghanistan and Chechnya, etc, etc, etc. When you stop to think about how much Russian men have got working against them, it's a pretty amazing that the divorce rate is *only* 80%. (I'd love to know the demographic breakdown of that statistic. Would be interesting to see how it's distributed.) I don't envy the pressures placed on the Russian man, and the fact that the majority of Russian men can keep it together in the kind of environment they have to operate in is actually a testament to their collective character.

[eekee 182]

per se [/i]but in comparison to other non Russian women I have known. I'll leave it at that.

I personally think (and hope) that many Russian women can stand next to a strong man, and the relationship finds balance and evenness...and maybe even long-term happiness. The relationship's roles are clear and incongruity, and there is no competition for power and authority.

In your case, my understanding is you're not Russian but Belarusian...and i don't know if you can fairly compare the two cultures.

Belarusian family culture is identical to Russian family culture, although my mother swears that Russians are worse housekeepers and that Belarusians are much cleaner.

I've spent a lot of time in Russia itself as well, and have lived with Russian families and Russian friends. Of course women aren't totally to blame for men's actions, but constantly infantilizing them doesn't help either. Watch Ironia sudby--the scene where the guy comes back to Moscow and says to his mom that no woman is for him because no woman is as good as her and she just goes, "Oh, moi cynok!!"--total encapsulation of russian mother/son relationship.

My grandmother never forced my uncle to move out, let him do whatever he want and never blamed him for anything whereas she made my mom do all the housework and always punished her. After my grandparents died my uncle was totally incapacitated and he couldn't hold a job and lost the house (which he had never moved out of). Yeah, it's Belarusian family but it's really the same in that aspect. Trust me. I recognized so much about the way i was raised that had always made me think my mom was crazy and really different from all my friends' parents when i got to russia and lived with russians. You'd be hard-pressed to find 2 cultures more similar than Russian and Belarusian. The difference is that Russians will often see themselves as superior and Belarusians with strong national pride (those in the diaspora society my mother grew up in) are very bitter towards them. But just saying that i have Belarusian roots gets Russians really excited and they start talking about how my face is so slavic and then buy me drinks. I can speak to my mom in Russian and she'll answer me in Belarusian with pretty much complete mutual understanding--belarusian to me sounds like russian with a lot of soft sounds. We have the same religion and same food only belarusians love potatos more. Lukashenka wants to be president of a unified Belarus and Russian Federation. My grammar teacher said she's been everywhere in Belarus and practically never heard Belarusian--it's pretty much an endangered language at this point.

Also bear in mind that while you all have Russian ladies, i deal with a russian MAN every day (and sometimes his mom) and thus my perspective on this issue.

Plus i don't think relationships need power balances or struggles--just, you know, equality. Sharing housework and childrearing equally, both bringing money to the home. That's my ideal.

Edited March 22, 2008 by eekee

[mox 298]

Just wanted to add...I didn't post this story to say "see what gold-diggers Russian women are?" It would be like someone posting a Britney Spears story and saying "see what bad mothers American women are?" If anything, it's an indictment of one of the negative side-effects capitalism has had on Muscovite/SP culture.

Edited March 22, 2008 by mox

[visaveteran1 33]

per se [/i]but in comparison to other non Russian women I have known. I'll leave it at that.

I personally think (and hope) that many Russian women can stand next to a strong man, and the relationship finds balance and evenness...and maybe even long-term happiness. The relationship's roles are clear and incongruity, and there is no competition for power and authority.

In your case, my understanding is you're not Russian but Belarusian...and i don't know if you can fairly compare the two cultures.

Belarusian family culture is identical to Russian family culture, although my mother swears that Russians are worse housekeepers and that Belarusians are much cleaner.

I've spent a lot of time in Russia itself as well, and have lived with Russian families and Russian friends. Of course women aren't totally to blame for men's actions, but constantly infantilizing them doesn't help either. Watch Ironia sudby--the scene where the guy comes back to Moscow and says to his mom that no woman is for him because no woman is as good as her and she just goes, "Oh, moi cynok!!"--total encapsulation of russian mother/son relationship.

My grandmother never forced my uncle to move out, let him do whatever he want and never blamed him for anything whereas she made my mom do all the housework and always punished her. After my grandparents died my uncle was totally incapacitated and he couldn't hold a job and lost the house (which he had never moved out of). Yeah, it's Belarusian family but it's really the same in that aspect. Trust me. I recognized so much about the way i was raised that had always made me think my mom was crazy and really different from all my friends' parents when i got to russia and lived with russians. You'd be hard-pressed to find 2 cultures more similar than Russian and Belarusian. The difference is that Russians will often see themselves as superior and Belarusians with strong national pride (those in the diaspora society my mother grew up in) are very bitter towards them. But just saying that i have Belarusian roots gets Russians really excited and they start talking about how my face is so slavic and then buy me drinks. I can speak to my mom in Russian and she'll answer me in Belarusian with pretty much complete mutual understanding--belarusian to me sounds like russian with a lot of soft sounds. We have the same religion and same food only belarusians love potatos more. Lukashenka wants to be president of a unified Belarus and Russian Federation. My grammar teacher said she's been everywhere in Belarus and practically never heard Belarusian--it's pretty much an endangered language at this point.

Also bear in mind that while you all have Russian ladies, i deal with a russian MAN every day (and sometimes his mom) and thus my perspective on this issue.

Plus i don't think relationships need power balances or struggles--just, you know, equality. Sharing housework and childrearing equally, both bringing money to the home. That's my ideal.

I don't know much about Belarus except I heard it's unfriendly to Americans and not easy to travel to. I never considered women from that country because of that negative street talk.

Your observations may be accurate within your frame of reference of living in an area of Russia...perhaps a bigger city. I don't know if your anecdotal stories reflect the entire country and the ways of the people living deeper inside Russia. But I don't completely disagree with you about Russian mothers.

I surmise it has a lot to do with guilt and shame around the absent father situation...so they want to over compensate with too much attention at home and the babying stuff. I don't see single American moms as any different. Too much nurturing and softer female energy without the counter-balancing of harder, tough love male energy will not produce ideal results in child rearing. Russian moms usually work long hard jobs so often grandmothers have to pick up the slack. The over arching culture may be a patriarchy but the day to day culture is a matriarchy. Must be confusing to young people over there.

You should remember the softer life is over once a boy turns 18 and goes into the Army. From what i hear it's a tough year with a lot harsh treatment. I think in a way that is a boy's right of passage in Russia...where he can no longer hide behind his mom's apron and must deal with the male side of his homeland.

[Bobalouie 0]

per se [/i]but in comparison to other non Russian women I have known. I'll leave it at that.

I personally think (and hope) that many Russian women can stand next to a strong man, and the relationship finds balance and evenness...and maybe even long-term happiness. The relationship's roles are clear and incongruity, and there is no competition for power and authority.

In your case, my understanding is you're not Russian but Belarusian...and i don't know if you can fairly compare the two cultures.

Belarusian family culture is identical to Russian family culture, although my mother swears that Russians are worse housekeepers and that Belarusians are much cleaner.

I've spent a lot of time in Russia itself as well, and have lived with Russian families and Russian friends. Of course women aren't totally to blame for men's actions, but constantly infantilizing them doesn't help either. Watch Ironia sudby--the scene where the guy comes back to Moscow and says to his mom that no woman is for him because no woman is as good as her and she just goes, "Oh, moi cynok!!"--total encapsulation of russian mother/son relationship.

My grandmother never forced my uncle to move out, let him do whatever he want and never blamed him for anything whereas she made my mom do all the housework and always punished her. After my grandparents died my uncle was totally incapacitated and he couldn't hold a job and lost the house (which he had never moved out of). Yeah, it's Belarusian family but it's really the same in that aspect. Trust me. I recognized so much about the way i was raised that had always made me think my mom was crazy and really different from all my friends' parents when i got to russia and lived with russians. You'd be hard-pressed to find 2 cultures more similar than Russian and Belarusian. The difference is that Russians will often see themselves as superior and Belarusians with strong national pride (those in the diaspora society my mother grew up in) are very bitter towards them. But just saying that i have Belarusian roots gets Russians really excited and they start talking about how my face is so slavic and then buy me drinks. I can speak to my mom in Russian and she'll answer me in Belarusian with pretty much complete mutual understanding--belarusian to me sounds like russian with a lot of soft sounds. We have the same religion and same food only belarusians love potatos more. Lukashenka wants to be president of a unified Belarus and Russian Federation. My grammar teacher said she's been everywhere in Belarus and practically never heard Belarusian--it's pretty much an endangered language at this point.

Also bear in mind that while you all have Russian ladies, i deal with a russian MAN every day (and sometimes his mom) and thus my perspective on this issue.

Plus i don't think relationships need power balances or struggles--just, you know, equality. Sharing housework and childrearing equally, both bringing money to the home. That's my ideal.

I don't know much about Belarus except I heard it's unfriendly to Americans and not easy to travel to. I never considered women from that country because of that negative street talk.

Your observations may be accurate within your frame of reference of living in an area of Russia...perhaps a bigger city. I don't know if your anecdotal stories reflect the entire country and the ways of the people living deeper inside Russia. But I don't completely disagree with you about Russian mothers.

I surmise it has a lot to do with guilt and shame around the absent father situation...so they want to over compensate with too much attention at home and the babying stuff. I don't see single American moms as any different. Too much nurturing and softer female energy without the counter-balancing of harder, tough love male energy will not produce ideal results in child rearing. Russian moms usually work long hard jobs so often grandmothers have to pick up the slack. The over arching culture may be a patriarchy but the day to day culture is a matriarchy. Must be confusing to young people over there.

You should remember the softer life is over once a boy turns 18 and goes into the Army. From what i hear it's a tough year with a lot harsh treatment. I think in a way that is a boy's right of passage in Russia...where he can no longer hide behind his mom's apron and must deal with the male side of his homeland.

Dont know if I agree with this last paragraph. While it is well known that the treatment is harsh to say the least, not every man goes to the army. If you are affluent and dont want to go, you pay a doctor to list you as unfit. Or, you go to university and that excludes you from service. Even the boys who do go into the service do not escape their mothers even then. If your family does not send you food and clothing and bedding and most other necessary things, you dont have them during your time in the Russian military. Parents often follow their children around and provide for them, even when they are in the military.

[mox 298]

You should remember the softer life is over once a boy turns 18 and goes into the Army. From what i hear it's a tough year with a lot harsh treatment. I think in a way that is a boy's right of passage in Russia...where he can no longer hide behind his mom's apron and must deal with the male side of his homeland.

I don't believe a year of much of anything is going to undo 18 years of whatever conditioning a boy gets from his family/mother, but I do agree that military service would have some kind of impact.

[Kazan' Tiger 1]

Alla told me it can be brutal, especially for the fresh. She said beatings occur and other very harsh hazing rituals take place. Nothing subsides until you are high enough to become a beater rather than a beatee.

You should remember the softer life is over once a boy turns 18 and goes into the Army. From what i hear it's a tough year with a lot harsh treatment. I think in a way that is a boy's right of passage in Russia...where he can no longer hide behind his mom's apron and must deal with the male side of his homeland.

I don't believe a year of much of anything is going to undo 18 years of whatever conditioning a boy gets from his family/mother, but I do agree that military service would have some kind of impact.

[visaveteran1 33]

Alla told me it can be brutal, especially for the fresh. She said beatings occur and other very harsh hazing rituals take place. Nothing subsides until you are high enough to become a beater rather than a beatee.

You should remember the softer life is over once a boy turns 18 and goes into the Army. From what i hear it's a tough year with a lot harsh treatment. I think in a way that is a boy's right of passage in Russia...where he can no longer hide behind his mom's apron and must deal with the male side of his homeland.

I don't believe a year of much of anything is going to undo 18 years of whatever conditioning a boy gets from his family/mother, but I do agree that military service would have some kind of impact.

My wife told me it used to be two years in the Army but there were so many suicides Putin cut it to one year. It may only be one year...but it's a long year I imagine.