Obama's Pastor: God Damn America, U.S. to Blame for 9/11

[garya505 2]

In context we're talking about one chapter of a very large nationwide church attended by approximately 1.2 million people nationwide whose members variously include:

Daniel Akaka — U.S. Senator from Hawaii (Democrat)

Max Baucus — U.S. Senator from Montana (Democrat)

Julian Bond — Chair NAACP (2004–present)

Walter Brueggemann — contemporary theologian, poet, and UCC minister, retired professor at Columbia Theological Seminary

William Sloane Coffin — Late Presbyterian/UCC minister and activist; 'pastor, prophet, poet'; former Chaplain at Yale University and Senior Pastor of Riverside Church, New York City

Common — Rapper, recording artist, member of Trinity UCC in Chicago

Jon Corzine — Governor of New Jersey (Democrat)

Howard Dean — Former Governor of Vermont (Democrat)

Mark Fernald — Former New Hampshire State senator pg 10

Donald Hall — United States US Poet Laureate

Mills Godwin — Former Governor of Virginia

Bob Graham — Former U.S. Senator from Florida (Democrat)

Judd Gregg — U.S. Senator from New Hampshire (Republican)

Jim Jeffords — Former U.S. Senator from Vermont (Independent)

Dean Koontz — American writer and author. Raised UCC, now is Catholic.

John Williamson Nevin — notable 19th-century theologian

Barack Obama — U.S. Senator, 2008 presidential candidate

Robert Orr — Assistant Secretary General of the United Nations

H. Richard Niebuhr — notable 20th-century theologian

Reinhold Niebuhr — notable 20th-century theologian

Sally Pederson — former Lieutenant Governor of Iowa (Democrat)

Leonard Pitts — Nationally syndicated Pulitzer prize–winning (2004) columnist

Marilynne Robinson — Pulitzer prize-winning (2005) author of the novel Gilead

Philip Schaff — notable 19th-century theologian

George Smathers — Democratic Senator from Florida

Max L. Stackhouse — public theologian and professor at Princeton Theological Seminary

William "Bill" McKinney — President of Pacific School of Religion, since 1996

Paul Tillich — notable 20th-century theologian

Andrew Young — Civil rights leader, ordained UCC pastor, and former member of Congress, UN ambassador, and mayor of Atlanta, Georgia

Jeri Kehn Thompson - wife of Law & Order star and former U.S. Senator and presidential candidate Fred Thompson

The Chicago chapter is one congregation of this church. We're not talking some obscure place in the back of beyond.

It's not the church that's in question here, it's Obama's choice of pastor. The questions are, did Obama know about this guy's political beliefs, did he listen to it in his sermons, and did he agree?

[HAL 9000 96]

I have relatives and friends who have some pretty far out ideas - politically. Should I not talk to them anymore simply because I disagree with some of their beliefs?

If one of these friends is your religious leader and you listen to his/her sermon every week, and you are planning on running for a high level elected office (like President, for example), then yes you should dump him/her. It's just common sense.

Then I guess the Bushes should have dumped the anti-American Bin Ladens from their commercial contacts.

If Bush was running for President now that might be a valid question, but he's not.

Just curious, the Bin Laden family is large, are they all anti- American?

Who cares- according to the same logic you present above. One pastor, one comment 5 years ago. Politico not in audience.

And, OBL had already professed his interesting take of love for America BEFORE Bush stepped onto any Presidential campaign.

Again, its one comment being fussed about 5 years ago when the politician in question was not even in audience. Facts!

The pastor only talked about politics once, 5 years ago?

No, its in bold above.

In context we're talking about one chapter of a very large nationwide church attended by approximately 1.2 million people nationwide whose members variously include:

Daniel Akaka — U.S. Senator from Hawaii (Democrat)

Max Baucus — U.S. Senator from Montana (Democrat)

Julian Bond — Chair NAACP (2004–present)

Walter Brueggemann — contemporary theologian, poet, and UCC minister, retired professor at Columbia Theological Seminary

William Sloane Coffin — Late Presbyterian/UCC minister and activist; 'pastor, prophet, poet'; former Chaplain at Yale University and Senior Pastor of Riverside Church, New York City

Common — Rapper, recording artist, member of Trinity UCC in Chicago

Jon Corzine — Governor of New Jersey (Democrat)

Howard Dean — Former Governor of Vermont (Democrat)

Mark Fernald — Former New Hampshire State senator pg 10

Donald Hall — United States US Poet Laureate

Mills Godwin — Former Governor of Virginia

Bob Graham — Former U.S. Senator from Florida (Democrat)

Judd Gregg — U.S. Senator from New Hampshire (Republican)

Jim Jeffords — Former U.S. Senator from Vermont (Independent)

Dean Koontz — American writer and author. Raised UCC, now is Catholic.

John Williamson Nevin — notable 19th-century theologian

Barack Obama — U.S. Senator, 2008 presidential candidate

Robert Orr — Assistant Secretary General of the United Nations

H. Richard Niebuhr — notable 20th-century theologian

Reinhold Niebuhr — notable 20th-century theologian

Sally Pederson — former Lieutenant Governor of Iowa (Democrat)

Leonard Pitts — Nationally syndicated Pulitzer prize–winning (2004) columnist

Marilynne Robinson — Pulitzer prize-winning (2005) author of the novel Gilead

Philip Schaff — notable 19th-century theologian

George Smathers — Democratic Senator from Florida

Max L. Stackhouse — public theologian and professor at Princeton Theological Seminary

William "Bill" McKinney — President of Pacific School of Religion, since 1996

Paul Tillich — notable 20th-century theologian

Andrew Young — Civil rights leader, ordained UCC pastor, and former member of Congress, UN ambassador, and mayor of Atlanta, Georgia

Jeri Kehn Thompson - wife of Law & Order star and former U.S. Senator and presidential candidate Fred Thompson

The Chicago chapter is one congregation of this church. We're not talking some obscure place in the back of beyond.

Its less than a mile from work.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

I have relatives and friends who have some pretty far out ideas - politically. Should I not talk to them anymore simply because I disagree with some of their beliefs?

If one of these friends is your religious leader and you listen to his/her sermon every week, and you are planning on running for a high level elected office (like President, for example), then yes you should dump him/her. It's just common sense.

Thats a sort of damned if you do, damned if you don't type-situation isn't it?

Its not common sense as Caladan says to be seen to Church-shop. Otherwise perhaps Mike Huckabee or Mitt Romney should have disavowed their respective churches and religions before they started their bid for office?

Personally, I'm not keen on political candidates having significant religious affiliations - but I'm less bothered by the fact that they have them than the idea that some politicians might mandate national policy based on articles of faith. I should also point out there there isn't one candidate, not a one, who is running on a secularist or atheist position.

[HAL 9000 96]

In context we're talking about one chapter of a very large nationwide church attended by approximately 1.2 million people nationwide whose members variously include:

Daniel Akaka — U.S. Senator from Hawaii (Democrat)

Max Baucus — U.S. Senator from Montana (Democrat)

Julian Bond — Chair NAACP (2004–present)

Walter Brueggemann — contemporary theologian, poet, and UCC minister, retired professor at Columbia Theological Seminary

William Sloane Coffin — Late Presbyterian/UCC minister and activist; 'pastor, prophet, poet'; former Chaplain at Yale University and Senior Pastor of Riverside Church, New York City

Common — Rapper, recording artist, member of Trinity UCC in Chicago

Jon Corzine — Governor of New Jersey (Democrat)

Howard Dean — Former Governor of Vermont (Democrat)

Mark Fernald — Former New Hampshire State senator pg 10

Donald Hall — United States US Poet Laureate

Mills Godwin — Former Governor of Virginia

Bob Graham — Former U.S. Senator from Florida (Democrat)

Judd Gregg — U.S. Senator from New Hampshire (Republican)

Jim Jeffords — Former U.S. Senator from Vermont (Independent)

Dean Koontz — American writer and author. Raised UCC, now is Catholic.

John Williamson Nevin — notable 19th-century theologian

Barack Obama — U.S. Senator, 2008 presidential candidate

Robert Orr — Assistant Secretary General of the United Nations

H. Richard Niebuhr — notable 20th-century theologian

Reinhold Niebuhr — notable 20th-century theologian

Sally Pederson — former Lieutenant Governor of Iowa (Democrat)

Leonard Pitts — Nationally syndicated Pulitzer prize–winning (2004) columnist

Marilynne Robinson — Pulitzer prize-winning (2005) author of the novel Gilead

Philip Schaff — notable 19th-century theologian

George Smathers — Democratic Senator from Florida

Max L. Stackhouse — public theologian and professor at Princeton Theological Seminary

William "Bill" McKinney — President of Pacific School of Religion, since 1996

Paul Tillich — notable 20th-century theologian

Andrew Young — Civil rights leader, ordained UCC pastor, and former member of Congress, UN ambassador, and mayor of Atlanta, Georgia

Jeri Kehn Thompson - wife of Law & Order star and former U.S. Senator and presidential candidate Fred Thompson

The Chicago chapter is one congregation of this church. We're not talking some obscure place in the back of beyond.

It's not the church that's in question here, it's Obama's choice of pastor. The questions are, did Obama know about this guy's political beliefs, did he listen to it in his sermons, and did he agree?

I think this has been answered already .

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

It's not the church that's in question here, it's Obama's choice of pastor. The questions are, did Obama know about this guy's political beliefs, did he listen to it in his sermons, and did he agree?

Well aside from what Obama has said about the pastor - you're not exactly likely to find out what he's thinking are you? Which is why I think you can tell more from his public statements and stated positions on policy issues. Trying to paint the guy out as some sort of religious extremist, based on things someone else has said and which reflect none of what he claims to stand for seems a little odd in my interpretation.

Besides - beyond the aggressive and blustery rhetoric the pastor has used, I'm not sure I read anything in the quotes that's particularly extreme - at least in the context of which it was said. Ill-worded perhaps - but he's addressing a church congregation on the basis that the world is an evil and corrupt place, full of sinners. That's my take anyway.

[Don_Joy's Prince 0]

When the genius can come up for a better definition of communism and socialism he'll be far better taken seriously.

These are economic idiologies, not forms of government.

Yeah I've heard it before. He's reciting it verbatim out of a couple of books he's read. In fact, if I remember rightly the books he referenced were actually books on economics.

If they were only ideologies then they would not be dangerous. It is when they implemented as government economic policies that they become destructive. When I hear people espousing the adoption of such policies without any review of the history of the damage that these policies have wrought time and time again. This is the time I feel compelled to speak up to set the record straight.

I would never recite verbatim without crediting my source. This is all me Bucko! And to tell you the truth sometimes listening to you guys reminds me of left wing propaganda in its purest form. I think to my self do these guys even have an original thought in there heads or have they been completely brainwashed by this BS. I could write down your response to my post verbatim, before you post it.

Are you sure you didn't hang out in that Hanoi Hilton with John McCain. Only your minds were weaker and it took.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

When the genius can come up for a better definition of communism and socialism he'll be far better taken seriously.

These are economic idiologies, not forms of government.

Yeah I've heard it before. He's reciting it verbatim out of a couple of books he's read. In fact, if I remember rightly the books he referenced were actually books on economics.

If they were only ideologies then they would not be dangerous. It is when they implemented as government economic policies that they become destructive. When I hear people espousing the adoption of such policies without any review of the history of the damage that these policies have wrought time and time again. This is the time I feel compelled to speak up to set the record straight.

I would never recite verbatim without crediting my source. This is all me Bucko! And to tell you the truth sometimes listening to you guys reminds me of left wing propaganda in its purest form. I think to my self do these guys even have an original thought in there heads or have they been completely brainwashed by this BS. I could write down your response to my post verbatim, before you post it.

Are you sure you didn't hang out in that Hanoi Hilton with John McCain. Only your minds were weaker and it took.

Don - I'm actually getting a tad insulted by the way you seem to take every argument I put out and some how make it about my personal deficiencies, such as you find them. That BTW says a lot about your ability to deconstruct an argument. "Original thought", "brainwashed" indeed.

All I said, before you hijacked it - was that US foreign policy since the 50's espoused stopping the spread of communism at any cost, regardless of the damage and fallout those policies caused to other countries - and that this is the reason for a lot of the resentment felt towards the US. Again - this isn't a particularly new or radical opinion - I wonder why you think it is...

You mentioned before that my "only goal in life seems to distort the truth to the point that it confuses people to allow them to fall victim to subterfuge". Would that subterfuge extend to your questioning whether a word is word, because of the "red line" under it?

[Don_Joy's Prince 0]

When the genius can come up for a better definition of communism and socialism he'll be far better taken seriously.

These are economic idiologies, not forms of government.

Yeah I've heard it before. He's reciting it verbatim out of a couple of books he's read. In fact, if I remember rightly the books he referenced were actually books on economics.

If they were only ideologies then they would not be dangerous. It is when they implemented as government economic policies that they become destructive. When I hear people espousing the adoption of such policies without any review of the history of the damage that these policies have wrought time and time again. This is the time I feel compelled to speak up to set the record straight.

I would never recite verbatim without crediting my source. This is all me Bucko! And to tell you the truth sometimes listening to you guys reminds me of left wing propaganda in its purest form. I think to my self do these guys even have an original thought in there heads or have they been completely brainwashed by this BS. I could write down your response to my post verbatim, before you post it.

Are you sure you didn't hang out in that Hanoi Hilton with John McCain. Only your minds were weaker and it took.

Don - I'm actually getting a tad insulted by the way you seem to take every argument I put out and some how make it about my personal deficiencies, such as you find them. That BTW says a lot about your ability to deconstruct an argument. "Original thought", "brainwashed" indeed.

All I said, before you hijacked it - was that US foreign policy since the 50's espoused stopping the spread of communism at any cost, regardless of the damage and fallout those policies caused to other countries - and that this is the reason for a lot of the resentment felt towards the US. Again - this isn't a particularly new or radical opinion - I wonder why you think it is...

You mentioned before that my "only goal in life seems to distort the truth to the point that it confuses people to allow them to fall victim to subterfuge". Would that subterfuge extend to your questioning whether a word is word, because of the "red line" under it?

And it is not an attack for you to say that I only quote verbatim from a couple of books I read. Insinuating that they are the only two books that I have read. And that I don't think for myself.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

And it is not an attack for you to say that I only quote verbatim from a couple of books I read. Insinuating that they are the only two books that I have read. And that I don't think for myself.

Sure. But what did you expect from what you wrote?

[HAL 9000 96]

When the genius can come up for a better definition of communism and socialism he'll be far better taken seriously.

These are economic idiologies, not forms of government.

Yeah I've heard it before. He's reciting it verbatim out of a couple of books he's read. In fact, if I remember rightly the books he referenced were actually books on economics.

If they were only ideologies then they would not be dangerous. It is when they implemented as government economic policies that they become destructive. When I hear people espousing the adoption of such policies without any review of the history of the damage that these policies have wrought time and time again. This is the time I feel compelled to speak up to set the record straight.

I would never recite verbatim without crediting my source. This is all me Bucko! And to tell you the truth sometimes listening to you guys reminds me of left wing propaganda in its purest form. I think to my self do these guys even have an original thought in there heads or have they been completely brainwashed by this BS. I could write down your response to my post verbatim, before you post it.

Are you sure you didn't hang out in that Hanoi Hilton with John McCain. Only your minds were weaker and it took.

Don - I'm actually getting a tad insulted by the way you seem to take every argument I put out and some how make it about my personal deficiencies, such as you find them. That BTW says a lot about your ability to deconstruct an argument. "Original thought", "brainwashed" indeed.

All I said, before you hijacked it - was that US foreign policy since the 50's espoused stopping the spread of communism at any cost, regardless of the damage and fallout those policies caused to other countries - and that this is the reason for a lot of the resentment felt towards the US. Again - this isn't a particularly new or radical opinion - I wonder why you think it is...

You mentioned before that my "only goal in life seems to distort the truth to the point that it confuses people to allow them to fall victim to subterfuge". Would that subterfuge extend to your questioning whether a word is word, because of the "red line" under it?

And it is not an attack for you to say that I only quote verbatim from a couple of books I read. Insinuating that they are the only two books that I have read. And that I don't think for myself.

Well you can start by actually understanding the difference between authoritarianism and communism.

[Don_Joy's Prince 0]

When the genius can come up for a better definition of communism and socialism he'll be far better taken seriously.

These are economic idiologies, not forms of government.

Yeah I've heard it before. He's reciting it verbatim out of a couple of books he's read. In fact, if I remember rightly the books he referenced were actually books on economics.

If they were only ideologies then they would not be dangerous. It is when they implemented as government economic policies that they become destructive. When I hear people espousing the adoption of such policies without any review of the history of the damage that these policies have wrought time and time again. This is the time I feel compelled to speak up to set the record straight.

I would never recite verbatim without crediting my source. This is all me Bucko! And to tell you the truth sometimes listening to you guys reminds me of left wing propaganda in its purest form. I think to my self do these guys even have an original thought in there heads or have they been completely brainwashed by this BS. I could write down your response to my post verbatim, before you post it.

Are you sure you didn't hang out in that Hanoi Hilton with John McCain. Only your minds were weaker and it took.

Don - I'm actually getting a tad insulted by the way you seem to take every argument I put out and some how make it about my personal deficiencies, such as you find them. That BTW says a lot about your ability to deconstruct an argument. "Original thought", "brainwashed" indeed.

All I said, before you hijacked it - was that US foreign policy since the 50's espoused stopping the spread of communism at any cost, regardless of the damage and fallout those policies caused to other countries - and that this is the reason for a lot of the resentment felt towards the US. Again - this isn't a particularly new or radical opinion - I wonder why you think it is...

You mentioned before that my "only goal in life seems to distort the truth to the point that it confuses people to allow them to fall victim to subterfuge". Would that subterfuge extend to your questioning whether a word is word, because of the "red line" under it?

And it is not an attack for you to say that I only quote verbatim from a couple of books I read. Insinuating that they are the only two books that I have read. And that I don't think for myself.

Well you can start by actually understanding the difference between authoritarianism and communism.

So communism is not authoritarian? Come on get real! Obviously I think you need to do a little more studying. They are not the same thing, but they both reside together.

Communism and Socialism both must be authoritarian because they run contrary to what is in the best interest of the individual. And must be forced on people.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Actually I think the operative word in relation to Communist states should be Totalitarianism, rather than simply Authoritarian. Every government is authoritarian to some degree.

[HAL 9000 96]

Actually I think the operative word in relation to Communist states should be Totalitarianism, rather than simply Authoritarian. Every government is authoritarian to some degree.

BINGO. That is, Communist states that have existed thus far would have that label fit quite easily.

Our Nobel Prize winner in Economics apparently still cannot decipher the difference between governmental methodologies and the economic system to which some subscribe in variyng degrees.

I am still at a loss for words to understand how a democracy can choose to be socialist in economics. But oh... by our prize winner's logic that is deemed impossible. Individuals in a democracy cannot arguably vote for socialistic practices by a gdemocratic government. Lol.

Edited March 15, 2008 by maviwaro