Thread for Religious Debate.

[Fuzzness 2]

I, btw, don't go to church. Mainly because my soccer games are on sunday mornings - and I don't miss soccer. I don't think that you have to go to church to be religious or beleive. In fact, part of me thinks churches are silly....they tell what and how to believe and I don't agree with that. I like the foundation, but then I like to form my own opinions.

I also believe that if god is so powerful and omnipresent... what does he care if you go to church or not?

[Traviesa 0]

That gift of forgiveness is available to all who will accept it and believe in Him, choose to follow Him, and obey His instructions to repent of your life of sin, confess your belief in Him, and be baptised-immersed in a watery grave, which symbolizes death to your old self,

Only once you have put on Jesus in baptism are you Heaven-bound. After that, you try not to sin, but if you do, you are forgiven. You try to use your spiritual gifts to bring glory to God, but if you fall short, it's ok. Once you are in His hand, nothing can pluck you from it.

So I guess I still have my ticket to heaven?? I was a born again, fully bapstised christian once.....

That is how you can tell the difference between funerals. The non-believers cry and weep because there is a sense of finality-their grief is all they're left with. Christians are sad, but realize that the departed is off to a better place.

I cried and wept at my brothers funeral because he was a good man (a christian also, I introduced him to 'the church') and he didn't deserve to die the way he did....a loving God?? not in my eyes.....

If that's what you think you did not read my post carefully-you missed the word "try." Are you going to go to Heaven? I don't know-I have no idea what was in your heart on the day you decided to be baptised. That's between you and God. I'm sorry about your brother's untimely death. My sister's death at the age of 10 was also untimely. It didn't make me feel that God is unloving, but I know a friend of mine, whose father was a police officer killed in the line of duty, she definitely felt that way. Like I said, that's why we have a mind. I'm not interested in debating though. I simply wanted to post my beliefs the way many others were. I'm sorry that many people don't like them or have problems with them-I simply laid them out as they are.

[chri'stina 190]

Something I find interesting, is that when something bad happens to someone, they start doubting God or that he's good or loving. But bad stuff happens to people all over the world all the time, and why do we think we are better than everyone else, to only think God is bad when something bad happens to us? And bad stuff has happened so many times to others? So in my opinion either we should think God is good but cannot control us like little robots and cannot force people do things or to make certain decisions(like don't turn down that street, you'll be murdered, die in car accident, etc), or else he is always bad. He can't be good only when our life is nice, and bad when our life is not good or something sad happens. That wouldn't really be fair. It would also mean we don't care if bad things happen to others while we are thinking God is so great, but only if something happens directly involved in our lives, God is suddenly mean. It's a part of humanity's character I guess.

[Sister Fracas 5]

Yes, I said "choice" of faith, not actual faith... By saying you'll burn in hell if you don't believe as I do, is a slap in the face. Why can't people just accept that people don't have to believe as they do, and be happy in their own faith???

I'm not sure if it was my post you were referring to. I never actually said anyone was going to burn in Hell. I never actually mentioned Hell. But now that you've brought it up I'll add in my thoughts on Hell. I don't believe in the Hell that is figuratively presented as fire and brimstone, big red guy with a pitchfork, etc. God describes Hell as total separation and being cut off from him. For all I know, that means you just die. That's the end for you. I don't really know. That's just what I believe. I don't believe anyone's going to a place of fire. I DO believe that imagery was presented to give people of not so sophisticated intelligence something to fear. And my question now is....if people don't believe in Heaven or Hell, or don't believe people actually go there, why do they get so upset when we talk about it? If it doesn't exist, there's nothing to worry about, right??

You didn't say it directly, but I've seen the same sentiment expressed several times in VJ religious threads. It's a condecending tone of "if I'm wrong, no big deal, but if you are, it will be a big deal to you". You know what I mean? I just don't get that way of "spreading the word".

As far as heaven/hell, again it's the "if you don't believe as I do, you are screwed" message. I don't care if folks want to believe in heaven or hell, just have the same respect to say I don't care if someone else doesn't believe. I just think the evangelical nature of some faiths don't allow for this give and take respect.

[Garfield fan 0]

I'm Buddhist, but I was baptized Catholic. I turned into Buddhism about 10 years ago and I really can relate with a lot of its teachings and philosophies, such as: karma, which means for every action there will be reaction, and this taught me that I have full responsibility for everything that I've done; life is "suffering" which means that in lives there is always imperfection and there are always gaps between my hopes and the reality that i have; nothing lasts forever, everything is just constant change and nothing stays the same within split seconds, including people; and also the 'no-self' teaching which explained that there is no such thing as "self", life is just a co-existence of mind and matter and death is the separation of mind and matter while rebirth is a recombination of mind and matter without an 'eternal soul' in it. I believe that we all have to live our lives in harmony with others, try to purify our minds from hatred, greed and lust. I also believe that through hardwork and perseverance, all beings can achieve perfection and purity, and to do so we have to strive by ourselves, no one else can help us because we are the 'saviour' of ourselves.

[Welshcookie 17]

That gift of forgiveness is available to all who will accept it and believe in Him, choose to follow Him, and obey His instructions to repent of your life of sin, confess your belief in Him, and be baptised-immersed in a watery grave, which symbolizes death to your old self,

Only once you have put on Jesus in baptism are you Heaven-bound. After that, you try not to sin, but if you do, you are forgiven. You try to use your spiritual gifts to bring glory to God, but if you fall short, it's ok. Once you are in His hand, nothing can pluck you from it.

So I guess I still have my ticket to heaven?? I was a born again, fully bapstised christian once.....

That is how you can tell the difference between funerals. The non-believers cry and weep because there is a sense of finality-their grief is all they're left with. Christians are sad, but realize that the departed is off to a better place.

I cried and wept at my brothers funeral because he was a good man (a christian also, I introduced him to 'the church') and he didn't deserve to die the way he did....a loving God?? not in my eyes.....

If that's what you think you did not read my post carefully-you missed the word "try." Are you going to go to Heaven? I don't know-I have no idea what was in your heart on the day you decided to be baptised. That's between you and God. I'm sorry about your brother's untimely death. My sister's death at the age of 10 was also untimely. It didn't make me feel that God is unloving, but I know a friend of mine, whose father was a police officer killed in the line of duty, she definitely felt that way. Like I said, that's why we have a mind. I'm not interested in debating though. I simply wanted to post my beliefs the way many others were. I'm sorry that many people don't like them or have problems with them-I simply laid them out as they are.

I don't worry about whether I am going to heaven because I no longer believe in a Heaven or a Hell....but if I am wrong I am just as covered as you.... as I still' try' to be a good person....All I know is that that I feel more at peace in my life than I ever did when I professed to 'be a christian' and thats just MY personal view. I have no problem with your beliefs at all....you get me wrong if you think that...

[almaty 19]

well stated welch cake

[Traviesa 0]

You didn't say it directly, but I've seen the same sentiment expressed several times in VJ religious threads. It's a condecending tone of "if I'm wrong, no big deal, but if you are, it will be a big deal to you".

Yes, Frances, but that's what I believe. Should I just keep that part of my beliefs hidden? It's the same deal as if someone came on here and said "Bow down to the Gingerbread man or else you all will be baked and impaled with gumdrop buttons." I might actually laugh at that, but since I don't believe a single word of it, it doesn't really bother me.

[Sister Fracas 5]

You didn't say it directly, but I've seen the same sentiment expressed several times in VJ religious threads. It's a condecending tone of "if I'm wrong, no big deal, but if you are, it will be a big deal to you".

Yes, Frances, but that's what I believe. Should I just keep that part of my beliefs hidden? It's the same deal as if someone came on here and said "Bow down to the Gingerbread man or else you all will be baked and impaled with gumdrop buttons." I might actually laugh at that, but since I don't believe a single word of it, it doesn't really bother me.

I must not quite be making the point...nevermind....

[chri'stina 190]

You didn't say it directly, but I've seen the same sentiment expressed several times in VJ religious threads. It's a condecending tone of "if I'm wrong, no big deal, but if you are, it will be a big deal to you".

Yes, Frances, but that's what I believe. Should I just keep that part of my beliefs hidden? It's the same deal as if someone came on here and said "Bow down to the Gingerbread man or else you all will be baked and impaled with gumdrop buttons." I might actually laugh at that, but since I don't believe a single word of it, it doesn't really bother me.

I must not quite be making the point...nevermind....

Frances,

I think I get your point..you don't like the way some christians try to evangelize others, it comes across condecending to you and it bothers you. You want everyone to leave each other alone in respect to beliefs, and to believe whatever they want without imposing it on others. I agree with the not imposing it on others thing, but I don't believe in keeping my beliefs low profile, because of the manner of my beliefs in the first place. If that makes sense...I truly believe in a heaven and hell, and a savior and that he is the only way to be spiritually saved. So if that is truly important to me, and I believe it to be the only truth, I will let other people know why or how I came to believe that, so they have a chance to know Jesus and the truth.

The basic thing is you don't like the way some christians deal with their faith, but if you respect people choosing their own beliefs then you have to respect them even if what we/they do bothers you. It bothers you, bottom line, but a lot of things bother me too. We have to respect ppl's choice in their beliefs, even if we completely disagree with how and what they believe. A christian who tells others about Jesus can be bothersome to some people, but a christian does not usually do it for self gain, they do it in the belief that the person they are telling may gain something wonderful. Just saying my point of view in it, saying these things very nicely and calmly and hope you don't think I'm arguing with you Frances, just trying to understand you and trying to let others understand me for instance. (gotta go babysit my cousin's lil girl now, won't be back on for awhile so if you reply or anything I might not see it right away!)

Edited February 6, 2006 by stina&suj

[Sister Fracas 5]

Frances,

I think I get your point..you don't like the way some christians try to evangelize others, it comes across condecending to you and it bothers you. You want everyone to leave each other alone in respect to beliefs, and to believe whatever they want without imposing it on others.

Yes

I agree with the not imposing it on others thing, but I don't believe in keeping my beliefs low profile, because of the manner of my beliefs in the first place. If that makes sense...I truly believe in a heaven and hell, and a savior and that he is the only way to be spiritually saved. So if that is truly important to me, and I believe it to be the only truth, I will let other people know why or how I came to believe that, so they have a chance to know Jesus and the truth.

I don't think you have to keep a low profile, but especially on a board like this where there are sooooooooo many different experiences, I think you have to accept that everyone's feelings and beliefs are just as valid. I think it's fine to let other people know all about Jesus....IF THEY ASK...otherwise, I think it's an intrusion. This thread is asking...so........

The basic thing is you don't like the way some christians deal with their faith, but if you respect people choosing their own beliefs then you have to respect them even if what we/they do bothers you. It bothers you, bottom line, but a lot of things bother me too. We have to respect ppl's choice in their beliefs, even if we completely disagree with how and what they believe. A christian who tells others about Jesus can be bothersome to some people, but a christian does not usually do it for self gain, they do it in the belief that the person they are telling may gain something wonderful. Just saying my point of view in it, saying these things very nicely and calmly and hope you don't think I'm arguing with you Frances, just trying to understand you and trying to let others understand me for instance.

Highlighting "some", yes, I think some Christians, in telling others about Jesus, when they haven't expressed the desire to know more, is bothersome. Remember, I WAS on that side of the coin. I found it a bit like being a saleperson for Jesus, pushing something to someone who might/did not want it. Jesus is wonderful for YOU Christina, and that is fantastic!

Peace...

Edited February 6, 2006 by Frances

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

... there are sooooooooo many different experiences, I think you have to accept that everyone's feelings and beliefs are just as valid.

I can see asking people to respect everyones right to believe what they want... but you are going one step further. You are actually asking people to believe all beliefs are valid. In other words, you are telling them what they should believe and that is not right.

I do not believe many belief systems are valid. I will not share which belief systems those are right now, but that's not the point. The point is while I respect your or Christina's right to believe whatever you want, I do not think both of you have valid belief systems. And by 'valid', I mean accurate and correct.

[Sister Fracas 5]

... there are sooooooooo many different experiences, I think you have to accept that everyone's feelings and beliefs are just as valid.

I can see asking people to respect everyones right to believe what they want... but you are going one step further. You are actually asking people to believe all beliefs are valid. In other words, you are telling them what they should believe and that is not right.

I do not believe many belief systems are valid. I will not share which belief systems those are right now, but that's not the point. The point is while I respect your or Christina's right to believe whatever you want, I do not think both of you have valid belief systems. And by 'valid', I mean accurate and correct.

forget it...I'm out of this thread.

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

... there are sooooooooo many different experiences, I think you have to accept that everyone's feelings and beliefs are just as valid.

I can see asking people to respect everyones right to believe what they want... but you are going one step further. You are actually asking people to believe all beliefs are valid. In other words, you are telling them what they should believe and that is not right.

I do not believe many belief systems are valid. I will not share which belief systems those are right now, but that's not the point. The point is while I respect your or Christina's right to believe whatever you want, I do not think both of you have valid belief systems. And by 'valid', I mean accurate and correct.

forget it...I'm out of this thread.

Just so we're clear...

If others tell you what to believe, that's bad. That offends you.

But when you tell others what they should believe (telling people that all beliefs are 'valid' is a belief), that's ok. Got it.

[Sister Fracas 5]

Just so we're clear...

If others tell you what to believe, that's bad. That offends you.

But when you tell others what they should believe (telling people that all beliefs are 'valid' is a belief), that's ok. Got it.

Yes, I believe ALL beliefs are valid, FOR THOSE INDIVIDUALS WHO FOLLOW THEM. Judaism is valid for Jews, Islam is valid for Muslims, Jesus is valid for Christians...is there something incorrect there? I'm not telling anyone they have to find validity IN all of those religions. I'm saying they have to accept AND respect that others do.

And I find it annoying that you imply that I'm trying to tell people what to believe. Maybe it's the medium of the internet and not expressing myself the way I want to, but I don't think anywhere in what I said, did I say I expect anyone to believe as I do. And there is no need to be sarcastic A.S.

Edited February 6, 2006 by Frances