Bush plans to veto banning of waterboarding

[jundp 191]

In other news

OMG that was fabulous. Almost as good as Star Wars: A New Pope.

I can say I'm disappointed, but I am not surprised at the this news (the OP, not the you tube vid).

omgz0rz! I must be a liberal!!!!

####### ever. Torture...because it is torture and not "interrogation techniques"...will not protect my ####### or anyone else's #######. Torture will yield whatever results the interrogator wants because the tortured will say whatever they feel will save them. Even if it's a pack of lies. We are absolutely no better than real terrorists when we engage in these acts.

And, if that makes me a "liberal sheesh" then I will proudly wear that title. Because anyone who supports this type of torture isn't someone I'd want to be associated with anyway. Kinda reminds me of the Nazis. Oh wait, they were just "conservative."

[KandD 1]

Well Said

In other news

OMG that was fabulous. Almost as good as Star Wars: A New Pope.

I can say I'm disappointed, but I am not surprised at the this news (the OP, not the you tube vid).

omgz0rz! I must be a liberal!!!!

####### ever. Torture...because it is torture and not "interrogation techniques"...will not protect my ####### or anyone else's #######. Torture will yield whatever results the interrogator wants because the tortured will say whatever they feel will save them. Even if it's a pack of lies. We are absolutely no better than real terrorists when we engage in these acts.

And, if that makes me a "liberal sheesh" then I will proudly wear that title. Because anyone who supports this type of torture isn't someone I'd want to be associated with anyway. Kinda reminds me of the Nazis. Oh wait, they were just "conservative."

[jundp 191]

Thank you. I've had a martini and am feeling spunky

[eric&gen 0]

Bush ought to veto himself is that possible?

[Don_Joy's Prince 0]

You mean the precedent. Surely.

Believe it or not laws have evolved since 1776 - not least in regard to the appropriate treatment of prisoners and legal due process.

Sorry It was getting past my bed time. It was nearly 9 pm.

Yes, prisoners are coddled more now. I would like to see a return to more stern treatment of people that commit crimes, especially those of a more heinous kind. So your so-called progress is far from it. We have prisoners sitting around and growing fat, while watching cable TV. Here in Oregon each cell has its own little LCD TV. When they did this I could not afford one for myself.

I would favor the hammer in hand and oatmeal for breakfast treatment instead.

[HAL 9000 96]

In other news

OMG that was fabulous. Almost as good as Star Wars: A New Pope.

I can say I'm disappointed, but I am not surprised at the this news (the OP, not the you tube vid).

omgz0rz! I must be a liberal!!!!

####### ever. Torture...because it is torture and not "interrogation techniques"...will not protect my ####### or anyone else's #######. Torture will yield whatever results the interrogator wants because the tortured will say whatever they feel will save them. Even if it's a pack of lies. We are absolutely no better than real terrorists when we engage in these acts.

And, if that makes me a "liberal sheesh" then I will proudly wear that title. Because anyone who supports this type of torture isn't someone I'd want to be associated with anyway. Kinda reminds me of the Nazis. Oh wait, they were just "conservative."

Funny when they'll tell you to then go to some communist country if you're that proud a liberal ...

But seriously now... these folks that defend the indefensible like to waive lotsa flags without themselves realizing how mundane and how very much contrary to the very principles they swear to uphold they are. Its a sad reminder of how one can lose their own country to forces contrary to the original foundations that are supposed to embolden all towards a better, smarter tomorrow.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Way to go....Never say never. It's a useful tool used by professionals that protect my #######, and your naive ####### as well.....

Can you site some legitimate sources from our military intelligence that support the use of waterboarding as an effective means in getting reliable information from detainees? Because I can site plenty of sources from military intelligence that say otherwise. But hey, Dubbya dumba$$ never let expert advice get in the way of his decision making before, why start now? All hail to the chief who can do no wrong...for the few remaining morons who support him.

Edited March 8, 2008 by Mister Fancypants

[Caladan 19]

Jail isn't prison either and yes, as Numero 6 said, the court premiss is that the prosecution has to prove beyond reasonable doubt that you committed the crime.

As for how people are treated in custody, actually, I am sure the majority of police officers follow the rules and treat their suspects ethically. The strong armers are few and far between and the reason is? Well strange as it may seem, playing by the rules actually delivers results, strong arming rarely does. Cases have been thrown out for technicalities for police brutality when gathering evidence.

Oh, the system isn't perfect. But "guilty until proven innocent" doesn't mean "no one is ever falsely accused" or "court is never a burden" but "the burden of proof is on the prosecution, not the defendant" or "you don't get sentenced for the crime before you've had a trial." And in any case, "I had to post bail so wah wah waterboarding is legal" makes about as much sense as "I put a bandaid on my booboo, so your cancer treatment is cheap."

Waterboarding is torture, and it doesn't lead to useful information because people who are tortured will confess to whatever they think will make the torture stop. Including the existence of a plot to blow up Santa Claus, in one case. And the damage done to our reputation as being a nation of torturers? Don't need to look much further than to 1979 Iran to see that torture is a powerful recruiting tool for the other side.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Kaydee,

Here's what the military intelligence experts have to say about waterboarding...but again, expert advice has never stopped Bush before, so why should it now? Your insistance on supporting Bush no matter what the experts say just makes you look like a tool.

.....

Washington - The nation's intelligence chief says waterboarding "would be torture" if used against him or if someone under interrogation actually was taking water into his lungs.

But Mike McConnell, in a magazine interview, declined for legal reasons to say whether the technique categorically should be considered torture.

"If it ever is determined to be torture, there will be a huge penalty to be paid for anyone engaging in it," McConnell told The New Yorker, which published a 16,000-word article Sunday on the director of national intelligence.

The comments come as the House Intelligence Committee investigates the CIA's destruction of videotaped interrogations of two al-Qaida suspects. The tapes were made in 2002 and destroyed three years later, over fears they would leak. They depicted the use of "enhanced" interrogation techniques against two of the three men known to have been waterboarded by the CIA.

As McConnell describes it, a prisoner is strapped down with a wash cloth over his face and water is dripped into his nose.

"If I had water draining into my nose, oh God, I just can't imagine how painful! Whether it's torture by anybody else's definition, for me it would be torture," McConnell told the magazine.

A spokesman for McConnell said he does not dispute the quotes attributed to him in the story by Lawrence Wright, who won the Pulitzer Prize in 2007 for "The Looming Towers", a book on al-Qaida and the Sept. 11 attacks.

McConnell said the legal test for torture should be "pretty simple."

"Is it excruciatingly painful to the point of forcing someone to say something because of the pain?" he said.

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/011308Z.shtml

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

You mean the precedent. Surely.

Believe it or not laws have evolved since 1776 - not least in regard to the appropriate treatment of prisoners and legal due process.

Sorry It was getting past my bed time. It was nearly 9 pm.

Yes, prisoners are coddled more now. I would like to see a return to more stern treatment of people that commit crimes, especially those of a more heinous kind. So your so-called progress is far from it. We have prisoners sitting around and growing fat, while watching cable TV. Here in Oregon each cell has its own little LCD TV. When they did this I could not afford one for myself.

I would favor the hammer in hand and oatmeal for breakfast treatment instead.

Of course - you would

And no doubt water-boarding for lunch, fingernail-pulling for dinner and branding for desert.

[jundp 191]

In other news

OMG that was fabulous. Almost as good as Star Wars: A New Pope.

I can say I'm disappointed, but I am not surprised at the this news (the OP, not the you tube vid).

omgz0rz! I must be a liberal!!!!

####### ever. Torture...because it is torture and not "interrogation techniques"...will not protect my ####### or anyone else's #######. Torture will yield whatever results the interrogator wants because the tortured will say whatever they feel will save them. Even if it's a pack of lies. We are absolutely no better than real terrorists when we engage in these acts.

And, if that makes me a "liberal sheesh" then I will proudly wear that title. Because anyone who supports this type of torture isn't someone I'd want to be associated with anyway. Kinda reminds me of the Nazis. Oh wait, they were just "conservative."

Funny when they'll tell you to then go to some communist country if you're that proud a liberal ...

But seriously now... these folks that defend the indefensible like to waive lotsa flags without themselves realizing how mundane and how very much contrary to the very principles they swear to uphold they are. Its a sad reminder of how one can lose their own country to forces contrary to the original foundations that are supposed to embolden all towards a better, smarter tomorrow.

Yes. And that's what (to me) makes a person go from patriot to fanatic.

I'd rather be called a "commie pinko" because at least I am consistent in my beliefs of social justice for ALL.