Bush plans to veto banning of waterboarding

[SMOKE 1,426]

They don't always. It depends on the charges.

I think your reasoning is a tad askew here. If it were the case that a person was guilty until proven innocent - then they would surely skip the trial and go straight to sentencing, and a person would have to prove their innocence on appeal.

The key here is that you are sentenced when you are found guilty. Not when you're accused. The judge and jury don't automatically assume a person is guilty - that's what's known as prejudice.

no i speak from experience. you are speaking from ideals

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Rights provided by law in a civil setting differ from rights of enemy combatants during a war.

We are at war with these people, they attacked us first. Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was the main one that we waterboarded. And he spilled his guts about the whole operation. That one action gave us more information then all the rest combined. Which in turn has allowed us to dismantle Al-Qaida. Which is now only a fraction of its former strength.

Confession before his Combatant Status Review Tribunal

In March 2007, Mohammed testified before a closed-door hearing in Guantánamo Bay. According to transcripts of the hearing released by the Pentagon, he said "I was responsible for the 9/11 operation, from A to Z." The transcripts also show him confessing to: organizing the 1993 World Trade Center bombing; the Bali nightclub bombings; and Richard Reid's attempted shoe bombing. He also confessed to planning attacks on Heathrow Airport and Big Ben clock tower in London, Pearl's murder in 2002, and planned assassination attempts on Pope John Paul II, Pervez Musharraf and Bill Clinton.

This is what water boarding gets you!

When the time comes he will be executed just like Saddam was!

I don't know why you Liberals are more worried about Protecting murderers and dictators than protecting innocent human beings.

What about their "human rights"?

No surprise that you'd have a hard-on for this.

Water-boarding is illegal. There are even prior legal precedents to that effect.

Again Khalid El-Masri. Murderer/Dictator or innocent human being?

Edited March 8, 2008 by Number 6

[Peikko 1,575]

Protect our arses? Who are we today? Real problems, ha ha ha, I know one thing, you are not responsible for taking care of anything, let alone the 'real problems' LMAO!

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

They don't always. It depends on the charges.

I think your reasoning is a tad askew here. If it were the case that a person was guilty until proven innocent - then they would surely skip the trial and go straight to sentencing, and a person would have to prove their innocence on appeal.

The key here is that you are sentenced when you are found guilty. Not when you're accused. The judge and jury don't automatically assume a person is guilty - that's what's known as prejudice.

no i speak from experience. you are speaking from ideals

Experience eh? You were arrested, sentenced and had to prove your innocence on appeal?

[SMOKE 1,426]

Protect our arses? Who are we today? Real problems, ha ha ha, I know one thing, you are not responsible for taking care of anything, let alone the 'real problems' LMAO!

forgot how to quote again i see. we are the american people..not smug arses from the uk that think they are better than everyone else. again what do you know about me?

They don't always. It depends on the charges.

I think your reasoning is a tad askew here. If it were the case that a person was guilty until proven innocent - then they would surely skip the trial and go straight to sentencing, and a person would have to prove their innocence on appeal.

The key here is that you are sentenced when you are found guilty. Not when you're accused. The judge and jury don't automatically assume a person is guilty - that's what's known as prejudice.

no i speak from experience. you are speaking from ideals

Experience eh? You were arrested, sentenced and had to prove your innocence on appeal?

no not put in prison. but, yes i have been arrested under false accusations & i had to prove i was innocent

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Protect our arses? Who are we today? Real problems, ha ha ha, I know one thing, you are not responsible for taking care of anything, let alone the 'real problems' LMAO!

forgot how to quote again i see. we are the american people..not smug arses from the uk that think they are better than everyone else. again what do you know about me?

They don't always. It depends on the charges.

I think your reasoning is a tad askew here. If it were the case that a person was guilty until proven innocent - then they would surely skip the trial and go straight to sentencing, and a person would have to prove their innocence on appeal.

The key here is that you are sentenced when you are found guilty. Not when you're accused. The judge and jury don't automatically assume a person is guilty - that's what's known as prejudice.

no i speak from experience. you are speaking from ideals

Experience eh? You were arrested, sentenced and had to prove your innocence on appeal?

no not put in prison. but, yes i have been arrested under false accusations & i had to prove i was innocent

But you weren't found guilty first... The verdict came after the trial - not before?

[HAL 9000 96]

Sure. Like they protected us from Khalid El-Masri

The onus is also on the prosecution to prove the case against you. Its not the other way around.

cherry pickin w/ wiki again i see & horsesh!t if that was the case why do they take the accused to jail first?

This country follows the motto, " Innocent until Proven Guilty " not " Guilty until proven innocent." Imagine if it were " Guilty until proven innocent."

ever been charged w/ anything? *newsflash for ya....you are guilty until you prove your innocence*

I have never been arrested, but I am sure it's not a 'nice' experience, and nor should it be. However, they are not allowed to use force or torture and *newsflash for you* that's an infringement of human rights. Oh but then again, maybe you don't believe in human rights

nuff said, refer to first bolden part, the gov't has a right to protect you & me even if you don't agree w/ the tactics.

They should also follow the international treatises on humane treatment of prisoners without looking for legal loopholes to use and abuse.

We whine about defending freedom yet seem to forget all about what freedom is supposed to be. Interesting.

yah everyone else play fair right?

We everyone else? No, we are we. Right?

yes we are we. like it or not we can & will do what we need to protect our arses....you keep bitchin & cryin from your high horse..someone else will take care of the real problems...mkay

The high horse just so happens to be the very same international standards and human rights we so vehemently say we defend. Trying to squeeze orange juice out of apples is maybe ok for you, but logic and reason say nay.

[SMOKE 1,426]

But you weren't found guilty first... The verdict came after the trial - not before?

after i was arrested, bailed out, paid a lawyer, paid court cost...after i proved i was innocent

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

This is all very silly - because outside of a trial lawyer's argument from the attorney general waterboarding was and is illegal, both under US law, and under international law.

[Peikko 1,575]

So, let me get this straight, because 'we are American' we have a right to do whatever we like? First off, I don't think the 'American people at large think in quite such absurdly isolationist terms and second, the American goverment, and by definition the 'American' people have ratified the Universal Declartion of Human Rights (all though not to all the protocols) and are therefore bound by them. As for what I know about you, I know very little, which suits me just fine.

[SMOKE 1,426]

The high horse just so happens to be the very same international standards and human rights we so vehemently say we defend. Trying to squeeze orange juice out of apples is maybe ok for you, but logic and reason say nay.

your high have room for the murdering chops your saying we shouldn't waterboard?

[Ban Hammer 13,641]

So, let me get this straight, because 'we are American' we have a right to do whatever we like? First off, I don't think the 'American people at large think in quite such absurdly isolationist terms and second, the American goverment, and by definition the 'American' people have ratified the Universal Declartion of Human Rights (all though not to all the protocols) and are therefore bound by them. As for what I know about you, I know very little, which suits me just fine.

oh here we go again with that worthless unenforceable piece of paper.

eta: if that paper means so much, just what can be done about it when someone who signed it violates it anyways?

answer - nothing!

so what's the point of it again?

Edited March 8, 2008 by charlesandnessa

[SMOKE 1,426]

So, let me get this straight, because 'we are American' we have a right to do whatever we like? First off, I don't think the 'American people at large think in quite such absurdly isolationist terms and second, the American goverment, and by definition the 'American' people have ratified the Universal Declartion of Human Rights (all though not to all the protocols) and are therefore bound by them. As for what I know about you, I know very little, which suits me just fine.

spin statements how you want. be thankful some have the balls to do whats needed even if you feel its distasteful

Edited March 8, 2008 by SMOKE

[Peikko 1,575]

Oh, I think we have a winner for the most idiotic posting of they day, and I have to say, I didn't think Kaydee's post could be beat. Well done Charles, crack open a beer and enjoy.

[Don_Joy's Prince 0]

Rights provided by law in a civil setting differ from rights of enemy combatants during a war.

We are at war with these people, they attacked us first. Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was the main one that we waterboarded. And he spilled his guts about the whole operation. That one action gave us more information then all the rest combined. Which in turn has allowed us to dismantle Al-Qaida. Which is now only a fraction of its former strength.

Confession before his Combatant Status Review Tribunal

In March 2007, Mohammed testified before a closed-door hearing in Guantánamo Bay. According to transcripts of the hearing released by the Pentagon, he said "I was responsible for the 9/11 operation, from A to Z." The transcripts also show him confessing to: organizing the 1993 World Trade Center bombing; the Bali nightclub bombings; and Richard Reid's attempted shoe bombing. He also confessed to planning attacks on Heathrow Airport and Big Ben clock tower in London, Pearl's murder in 2002, and planned assassination attempts on Pope John Paul II, Pervez Musharraf and Bill Clinton.

This is what water boarding gets you!

When the time comes he will be executed just like Saddam was!

I don't know why you Liberals are more worried about Protecting murderers and dictators than protecting innocent human beings.

What about their "human rights"?

Education is a wonderful thing. Please ask this question again whey you actually understand what human rights are and how they should be applied. Oh, but hang on, because you decided that something is true, it has to be, correct?

I understand when people fly airplanes into large buildings it definitely violates peoples human rights. But you would rather allow this to happen over and over again then to see the guilty pay for their actions.

Everything I stated here is 100% true. You are too blinded by your ignorance of actual right and wrong or good vs. evil to see the truth.

These people are evil, what don't you get about that? As long as this evil continues innocent people will pay the price.

Why do you fight what is in the best interest of your country, the world and the innocent peoples human rights? To defend murderers and dictators in the manner in which you do seems unfathomable to me?

It makes me wonder what got into your mind to warp it in such a fashion that you think your standing on moral grounds. It's almost as perverted as the people that killed innocent people in those building on that September morning.

Edited March 8, 2008 by Don_Joy's Prince