Jerusalem seminary attacked, 7 dead

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

When are they going to take the high road? From my outsider's perspective it seems that the Palestinians do 10X worse things than the Israelis do. Why can't for once Palestine not react with the old "eye for an eye"?

I remember there was dancing in the streets on the 12th of September in the Palestinian territories a few years ago too. Tell me again why they deserve our respect?

/is 9/11 like a Godwin?

Again with the ubiquitous "they."

I can post the stats of this conflict again, which clearly show who is doing much more than "10x worse things."

And Benjamin Netanyahu said on the 11th of September a few years back -- "it's very good." Shall I now ask "Tell me again why 'they' deserve our respect?"

[AnewKINDofFEELIN 0]

As repulsive as celebrating the deaths of innocents may sound, I don't agree with you that such behavior should merit the death penalty.

I didn't say anything about the death penalty. I was just stating my opinion that I think that people like that deserve to die. I can only hope that some of those palestinians firing rifles into the air were killed by their falling bullets.

OK play the semantics game

As repulsive as celebrating the deaths of innocents may sound, I don't agree with you that such behavior merits "deserving to die."

I'm not playing any semantics game. I am sorry, but they deserve to die and rot in their respective hell. I will not cheer when they die. It will not make me happy, but they do deserve it as they are perpetuating hatred and glorifying the killing of innocent people. Karma is on my side.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

The whole thing is sick and far removed from any sense of humanity.

[AnewKINDofFEELIN 0]

The whole thing is sick and far removed from any sense of humanity.

Definitely. I hope they're able to come to some peaceful agreement. I'm afraid that will never happen, though. The only way I can see it ending now is that Israel finally "goes all the way." That won't be pretty. Then we'll see if all of the apocalypse predictions come true. Let us hope that it doesn't come to that.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

I do think Israel is in the best position to get the ball rolling on peace process, and has the ability to make concessions. To a large extent I do think the ball is in their court - but what keeps happening is endlessly counter-productive. Continually going over the border and trashing the area, including power / sanitation, not to mention residential neighbourhoods is only going to inflame things. I'm not sure what they expect to happen - the idea seems to be that if you intimidate people enough they'll stop what they're doing. Clearly that hasn't and doesn't work.

The collective punishment is a problem, as many observers have pointed out - because it takes the emphasis off the actual troublemakers and onto everyone living in the region. In that climate - people aren't going to be angry with the criminals, but with the people who are coming into their neighbourhoods with tanks.

[AnewKINDofFEELIN 0]

I do think Israel is in the best position to get the ball rolling on peace process, and has the ability to make concessions. To a large extent I do think the ball is in their court - but what keeps happening is endlessly counter-productive. Continually going over the border and trashing the area, including power / sanitation, not to mention residential neighbourhoods is only going to inflame things. I'm not sure what they expect to happen - the idea seems to be that if you intimidate people enough they'll stop what they're doing. Clearly that hasn't and doesn't work.

The collective punishment is a problem, as many observers have pointed out - because it takes the emphasis off the actual troublemakers and onto everyone living in the region. In that climate - people aren't going to be angry with the criminals, but with the people who are coming into their neighbourhoods with tanks.

Definitely, but the terrorists also hurt the cause. The citizens on both sides need to take control of the situation. I'm sorry, maybe the Israelis need to arm some of the moderate Palestinians and give them an opportunity to police their own. Something needs to give.

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

Definitely, but the terrorists also hurt the cause. The citizens on both sides need to take control of the situation. I'm sorry, maybe the Israelis need to arm some of the moderate Palestinians and give them an opportunity to police their own. Something needs to give.

I guess you don't know what happened after the election of 2006. I'll be back later to tell you -- gotta do some work now.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

I do think Israel is in the best position to get the ball rolling on peace process, and has the ability to make concessions. To a large extent I do think the ball is in their court - but what keeps happening is endlessly counter-productive. Continually going over the border and trashing the area, including power / sanitation, not to mention residential neighbourhoods is only going to inflame things. I'm not sure what they expect to happen - the idea seems to be that if you intimidate people enough they'll stop what they're doing. Clearly that hasn't and doesn't work.

The collective punishment is a problem, as many observers have pointed out - because it takes the emphasis off the actual troublemakers and onto everyone living in the region. In that climate - people aren't going to be angry with the criminals, but with the people who are coming into their neighbourhoods with tanks.

Definitely, but the terrorists also hurt the cause. The citizens on both sides need to take control of the situation. I'm sorry, maybe the Israelis need to arm some of the moderate Palestinians and give them an opportunity to police their own. Something needs to give.

Given the developments in recent years I wonder if Israel misses dealing with Arafat. Compared to the current situation of disparate factions and sectarian chaos...

[sandinista! 1,816]

When are they going to take the high road? From my outsider's perspective it seems that the Palestinians do 10X worse things than the Israelis do. Why can't for once Palestine not react with the old "eye for an eye"?

I remember there was dancing in the streets on the 12th of September in the Palestinian territories a few years ago too. Tell me again why they deserve our respect?

/is 9/11 like a Godwin?

Again with the ubiquitous "they."

I can post the stats of this conflict again, which clearly show who is doing much more than "10x worse things."

And Benjamin Netanyahu said on the 11th of September a few years back -- "it's very good." Shall I now ask "Tell me again why 'they' deserve our respect?"

here's a sweet little story.

Graveside party celebrates Hebron massacre

Militant Jews have gathered at the grave of Baruch Goldstein to celebrate the sixth anniversary of his massacre of Muslim worshippers in Hebron.

The celebrants dressed up as the gunman, wearing army uniforms, doctor's coats and fake beards.

Goldstein, an immigrant from New York City, had been a physician in the Jewish settlement of Kiryat Arba.

Waving semi-automatic weapons in the air, the celebrants danced, sang and read prayers around his grave.

"We decided to make a big party on the day he was murdered by Arabs," said Baruch Marzel, one of about 40 celebrants.

The tribute was a macabre twist on the Jewish festival of Purim, when it is a custom to dress in costume and celebrate.

In 1994 on Purim, Goldstein stormed a mosque and fired on praying Muslims in the West Bank city's Tomb of the Patriarchs - a shrine sacred to both Muslims and Jews.

Twenty-nine people died in the attack, and the angry crowd lynched Goldstein in retaliation.

Israeli extremists continue to pay homage at his grave in the nearby Jewish settlement of Kiryat Arba, where a marble plaque reads: "To the holy Baruch Goldstein, who gave his life for the Jewish people, the Torah and the nation of Israel."

About 10,000 people had visited the grave since the massacre, Mr Marzel said.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/685792.stm

but i'm going to leave that "they" ####### to the small-minded. that's for david duke, and his like.

[DeadPoolX 9]

As repulsive as celebrating the deaths of innocents may sound, I don't agree with you that such behavior should merit the death penalty.

I didn't say anything about the death penalty. I was just stating my opinion that I think that people like that deserve to die. I can only hope that some of those palestinians firing rifles into the air were killed by their falling bullets.

OK play the semantics game

As repulsive as celebrating the deaths of innocents may sound, I don't agree with you that such behavior merits "deserving to die."

In theory, I'd agree with AnewKINDofFEELIN; however, in practice, I can't bring myself to actually do so. The reason is that most people are "guilty" of "cheering" on the deaths of the enemy. How many Americans have cheered on the U.S. Marine Corps when the terrorist death toll rises? Just because we don't crowd our streets, firing AK-47s into the air and burning effigys of our enemies, doesn't mean we may not say "I'm really glad that terrorist scum is dead" in the safety of our homes. This doesn't make you and your allies horrible people; it just means you're happy that potential threats to you and your family have been eliminated.

When engaging in war, it's hard to see the opposition as human, since that makes killing enemies very difficult. It's far easier to shoot, stab, or blow up people whom you believe are sub-human or "monsters" versus those who're human beings like you. If they are like you -- with families, friends, hopes and dreams -- putting them six feet under becomes a much more complicated task.

I just want to point out that as a Jew and a supporter of Israel, I am very tired of the back-and-forth fighting in the Middle East. If some peaceful resolution could be reached, I'd be quite pleased. Unfortunately, I doubt any such thing will ever happen. Instead, I believe both sides won't rest until one is either completely demolished or reduced to the point where it can be successfully contained.

[Hilarious Clinton 452]

In Gaza City, residents went out into the streets and fired rifles in celebration in the air after hearing news of the attack on the seminary.

:whistle:

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

In theory, I'd agree with AnewKINDofFEELIN; however, in practice, I can't bring myself to actually do so. The reason is that most people are "guilty" of "cheering" on the deaths of the enemy. How many Americans have cheered on the U.S. Marine Corps when the terrorist death toll rises? Just because we don't crowd our streets, firing AK-47s into the air and burning effigys of our enemies, doesn't mean we may not say "I'm really glad that terrorist scum is dead" in the safety of our homes. This doesn't make you and your allies horrible people; it just means you're happy that potential threats to you and your family have been eliminated.

When engaging in war, it's hard to see the opposition as human, since that makes killing enemies very difficult. It's far easier to shoot, stab, or blow up people whom you believe are sub-human or "monsters" versus those who're human beings like you. If they are like you -- with families, friends, hopes and dreams -- putting them six feet under becomes a much more complicated task.

I just want to point out that as a Jew and a supporter of Israel, I am very tired of the back-and-forth fighting in the Middle East. If some peaceful resolution could be reached, I'd be quite pleased. Unfortunately, I doubt any such thing will ever happen. Instead, I believe both sides won't rest until one is either completely demolished or reduced to the point where it can be successfully contained.

This was an extremely perceptive post -- very well considered and stated.

I agree with everything you've said -- well, except for the last 2 sentences of your final paragraph. I know too many people in the region (both Israeli and Palestinian) who want peace, and who are actually working together to try to make progress.

The policies of the past have failed, and continued meddling by the U.S. has actually made things much worse. In fact, the whole situation in Gaza today is the direct result of a series of foolish schemes put together by none other than George W. Bush:

The Gaza Bombshell:

http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/feature...8/04/gaza200804

When are they going to take the high road? From my outsider's perspective it seems that the Palestinians do 10X worse things than the Israelis do. Why can't for once Palestine not react with the old "eye for an eye"?

I remember there was dancing in the streets on the 12th of September in the Palestinian territories a few years ago too. Tell me again why they deserve our respect?

/is 9/11 like a Godwin?

Again with the ubiquitous "they."

I can post the stats of this conflict again, which clearly show who is doing much more than "10x worse things."

And Benjamin Netanyahu said on the 11th of September a few years back -- "it's very good." Shall I now ask "Tell me again why 'they' deserve our respect?"

here's a sweet little story.

Graveside party celebrates Hebron massacre

Militant Jews have gathered at the grave of Baruch Goldstein to celebrate the sixth anniversary of his massacre of Muslim worshippers in Hebron.

The celebrants dressed up as the gunman, wearing army uniforms, doctor's coats and fake beards.

Goldstein, an immigrant from New York City, had been a physician in the Jewish settlement of Kiryat Arba.

Waving semi-automatic weapons in the air, the celebrants danced, sang and read prayers around his grave.

"We decided to make a big party on the day he was murdered by Arabs," said Baruch Marzel, one of about 40 celebrants.

The tribute was a macabre twist on the Jewish festival of Purim, when it is a custom to dress in costume and celebrate.

In 1994 on Purim, Goldstein stormed a mosque and fired on praying Muslims in the West Bank city's Tomb of the Patriarchs - a shrine sacred to both Muslims and Jews.

Twenty-nine people died in the attack, and the angry crowd lynched Goldstein in retaliation.

Israeli extremists continue to pay homage at his grave in the nearby Jewish settlement of Kiryat Arba, where a marble plaque reads: "To the holy Baruch Goldstein, who gave his life for the Jewish people, the Torah and the nation of Israel."

About 10,000 people had visited the grave since the massacre, Mr Marzel said.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/685792.stm

but i'm going to leave that "they" ####### to the small-minded. that's for david duke, and his like.

I was going to post the story of the Hebron Massacre, but I have the pics in my other computer.

[simple_male 1]

As repulsive as celebrating the deaths of innocents may sound, I don't agree with you that such behavior should merit the death penalty.

I didn't say anything about the death penalty. I was just stating my opinion that I think that people like that deserve to die. I can only hope that some of those palestinians firing rifles into the air were killed by their falling bullets.

OK play the semantics game

As repulsive as celebrating the deaths of innocents may sound, I don't agree with you that such behavior merits "deserving to die."

In theory, I'd agree with AnewKINDofFEELIN; however, in practice, I can't bring myself to actually do so. The reason is that most people are "guilty" of "cheering" on the deaths of the enemy. How many Americans have cheered on the U.S. Marine Corps when the terrorist death toll rises? Just because we don't crowd our streets, firing AK-47s into the air and burning effigys of our enemies, doesn't mean we may not say "I'm really glad that terrorist scum is dead" in the safety of our homes. This doesn't make you and your allies horrible people; it just means you're happy that potential threats to you and your family have been eliminated.

When engaging in war, it's hard to see the opposition as human, since that makes killing enemies very difficult. It's far easier to shoot, stab, or blow up people whom you believe are sub-human or "monsters" versus those who're human beings like you. If they are like you -- with families, friends, hopes and dreams -- putting them six feet under becomes a much more complicated task.

I just want to point out that as a Jew and a supporter of Israel, I am very tired of the back-and-forth fighting in the Middle East. If some peaceful resolution could be reached, I'd be quite pleased. Unfortunately, I doubt any such thing will ever happen. Instead, I believe both sides won't rest until one is either completely demolished or reduced to the point where it can be successfully contained.

Well said! It is an ongoing cycle and needs to stop. There is no military solution of this conflict. Only talking with each other with good faith and respect will take them to a peaceful solution. So I say there is a hope. Hopefully both sides will start walking to the hope route very soon.

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

here's a sweet little story.

Graveside party celebrates Hebron massacre

Militant Jews have gathered at the grave of Baruch Goldstein to celebrate the sixth anniversary of his massacre of Muslim worshippers in Hebron.

The celebrants dressed up as the gunman, wearing army uniforms, doctor's coats and fake beards.

Goldstein, an immigrant from New York City, had been a physician in the Jewish settlement of Kiryat Arba.

Waving semi-automatic weapons in the air, the celebrants danced, sang and read prayers around his grave.

"We decided to make a big party on the day he was murdered by Arabs," said Baruch Marzel, one of about 40 celebrants.

The tribute was a macabre twist on the Jewish festival of Purim, when it is a custom to dress in costume and celebrate.

In 1994 on Purim, Goldstein stormed a mosque and fired on praying Muslims in the West Bank city's Tomb of the Patriarchs - a shrine sacred to both Muslims and Jews.

Twenty-nine people died in the attack, and the angry crowd lynched Goldstein in retaliation.

Israeli extremists continue to pay homage at his grave in the nearby Jewish settlement of Kiryat Arba, where a marble plaque reads: "To the holy Baruch Goldstein, who gave his life for the Jewish people, the Torah and the nation of Israel."

About 10,000 people had visited the grave since the massacre, Mr Marzel said.

Memorial shrine at the grave of terrorist Baruch Goldstein:

Epitaph on the tombstone:

"Died for the sake of His land and His Torah

With clean hands and pure heart…

Murdered for the sake of sanctification of the Lord"

Kiryat Arba (for those of you who don't know) is an illegal West Bank settlement built on confiscated Palestinian land just outside Hebron. It's a stronghold for some of the most fanatical and racist of all Zionists -- about 600 of them, and they are protected by thousands of Israeli soldiers. It's a major flashpoint of the conflict.

Remember the settlers you saw on television scuffling with the Israeli army during the Gaza "disengagement" ? They weren't even from Gaza -- they were settler trash from Kiryat Arba who went over there to put on a big show for the TV cameras.

This mass murderer’s grave is located in a park in Kiryat Arba which is named for another racist advocate of Palestinian and Arab genocide, Meir Kahane -- the founder and leader of the terrorist Kach movement, of which Goldstein was a member.

The stone plaza around the grave that you see in the picture originally featured benches and lights, a prayer book case, a stand for memorial candles, a collection box and faucets for ritual hand-washing.

After mounting international outrage at the idea of Israelis having built a shrine to honor a terrorist, and despite angry protests from the Kiryat Arba settlers, the State of Israel finally bulldozed the stone plaza around the grave and replaced it with gravel.

However, the tombstone and its epitaph, which called Goldstein a ''martyr'' with ''clean hands and a pure heart," remains untouched.

Goldstein's official Israeli death certificate lists his cause of death as "murder." His widow actually asked that the survivors of his deadly rampage -- the people who finally stopped the massacre by bludgeoning him to death with a fire extinguisher -- be prosecuted for "murder," but the State of Israel declined to take action.

Goldstein continues to be honored as a hero by many in the settler movement as well as by other Zionists.

[LynnandAhmed 0]

Instead of talking about what is happening right now and arguing about it, why don't people reread history and see where all this came from and why it continues to this day?

This fighting has been going on now for a long time. Its roots are deep. There is pain and killing on both sides and the hatred is deeply rooted and will continue and be passed on to future generations.

With the Balfour Declaration in 1917 by Britain and the UN backed resolution 181 in 1947, a Jewish state was created and the Arabs never wanted it. They decided it wasn't going to happen and the conflict has been occuring ever since, with no end in site.

Initially, Britain took several steps to aid the Arab side. For example, before World War II (1939-1945) the British did not allow large numbers of Jews to come to Palestine from Europe, where they were often persecuted. Nonetheless, Zionists gradually gained the upper hand through steady land purchases, slow but continual immigration, and community organization. After World War II the world became aware of the murder of millions of Jews in the Holocaust, and opinion began to favor creating an independent Jewish state. Arabs in Palestine and elsewhere continued to resist the idea, but on November 29, 1947, the United Nations (UN) passed Resolution 181, which called for a partition of Palestine into separate Jewish and Arab states. The Jews accepted the resolution, but the Arabs opposed it. On May 14, 1948, the British mandate was terminated and at midnight the Jewish state of Israel declared its independence. The new state came under immediate attack from the Palestinian population and Arabs of the surrounding countries, including Egypt, Syria, and Lebanon.

In the Arab-Israeli War of 1948-1949 Arab forces (including the armies of Egypt, Transjordan, Syria, Lebanon, and Iraq as well as Palestinian guerrillas) had expected an easy victory over the small and isolated Jewish state, but despite heavy casualties Israel won. Israel also increased the land under its control far beyond what it had been given by the partition plan. The region just west of the Jordan River known as the West Bank came under the control of Transjordan (which was renamed Jordan in 1949). Egypt gained control of the Gaza Strip, a small region bordering the southern end of Israel’s Mediterranean coast. The demoralized Arab world was unwilling to accept the Israeli victory, and shortly after the war the Arabs began to regroup for more fighting. The war had also created a large population of Palestinian Arab refugees who fled Israel for camps maintained by the UN in neighboring Arab states. With the exception of Jordan, Arab countries generally refused to allow Palestinians to settle outside the camps or to be granted citizenship. As a result, the conflict between Israeli Jews and Palestinian Arabs continued to fester.

In the mid-1950s the Egyptian government began to support Palestinian guerrilla raids into Israel from the Gaza Strip. Egypt also refused to allow Israeli ships to use the Suez Canal and in 1951 blockaded the Strait of Tiran (Israel’s access to the Red Sea), which Israel regarded as an act of war. In June 1956 Egypt nationalized the Suez Canal, which had been jointly owned by Britain and France. In late October, Israel invaded the Gaza Strip and Sinai Peninsula, defeating Egyptian forces there. Britain and France attacked Egypt a few days later. Although the fighting was brief and Israel eventually withdrew from the Sinai and Gaza, the conflict further exacerbated regional tensions.

In 1967 Egypt, Syria, and Jordan massed their armies on Israel’s borders, and several Arab states called for war. Egypt demanded the withdrawal of UN observers from the Sinai Peninsula. Assuming the Arabs would attack, Israel struck first, in June 1967, and caught the Arabs by surprise. In the Six-Day War that followed, Israel demolished the armies and air forces of Egypt, Syria, and Jordan. It also gained control of the West Bank, the Sinai Peninsula and Gaza Strip, the Golan Heights region of southwestern Syria, and all of Jerusalem. A second wave of Palestinian refugees fled the fighting, worsening the problem created by the first exodus in 1948.

Despite opposition from other Arabs that Jordan’s King Hussein, like Egypt’s Sadat before him, was abandoning Palestinian interests in pursuit of a treaty with Israel, Hussein was undeterred. Jordan and Israel signed a peace agreement in 1994. By the mid-1990s Israel had also achieved diplomatic relations with Arab countries in North Africa and the Persian Gulf.

Despite these accomplishments towards peace, some terrorism and bloodshed continued. Palestinians conducted terrorist attacks on Israeli citizens, and on a number of occasions Israeli extremists responded in kind. Israeli prime minister Yitzhak Rabin was assassinated in 1995 by an Israeli student opposed to the peace process. Under Israeli prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu, the peace process stalled in 1997. While Netanyahu completed some elements of the peace agreements, such as removing Israeli troops from the West Bank town of Hebron, some of his policies, including building Israeli settlements in Arab East Jerusalem, angered Palestinians and earned rebukes from many nations.

The volatile situation erupted in September with the outbreak of a second intifada (known as the Al Aqsa intifada, after the holy Al Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem). Palestinian militants resumed widespread resistance to Israel in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, along with a string of devastating terrorist attacks in Israel proper. At the same time, the Israeli army increased its restrictions on the Palestinian population and stepped up its military tactics. During the second intifada, loss of life was heavy on both sides and peace negotiations broke down. In the absence of meaningful diplomacy, the situation was marked by increased use of force by the Israeli side and frequent suicide and ambush attacks by the Palestinian side.

In July, on the northern border of Israel, the Iranian- and Syrian-backed terrorist group Hezbollah abducted two Israeli soldiers, killed several others, and shelled a number of communities. Israel responded by launching an attack on southern Lebanon, including air raids on Hezbollah strongholds as far north as southern Beirut, leading to the deaths of about 1,200 Lebanese civilians. The escalation of the crisis saw thousands of rockets launched daily into northern Israel by Hezbollah, causing the deaths of about 160 Israeli civilians, the disruption of Israel’s economy, and the temporary flight or confinement in bomb shelters of roughly a million Israelis. The fighting caused tremendous damage to the infrastructure of southern Lebanon and some parts of Beirut, and left 1 million Lebanese homeless or displaced. By the time a ceasefire was agreed at the United Nations (UN) in August, more than 100 Israeli troops and some 500 Hezbollah insurgents had been killed in fierce fighting. The UN ceasefire resolution called for the withdrawal of both antagonists and for southern Lebanon to be occupied by the Lebanese army augmented by a UN force.

The fighting goes on and on and on and on and people are killed on both sides over and over and over and over and hatred grows and grows and grows and grows and is passed on and on and on to each subsequent generation.

And as frustrations and anger grow, so does the ideas of revenge and violence. I do not ever see an end to this.

Before anyone takes sides and sees one side AS MORE the victim than the other, I suggest reading

Power,Faith and Fantasy by Michael Oren for a better understanding of America's role in the Middle East since 1776.

Media is biased in the Arab world as much as in the Western world. Has anyone ever watched the various news

channels on Link TV on Mosaic News? There are profound biases there with their state-controlled news shows in Saudi Arabia, UAE, Iraq Iran, Qatar, etc.

The only thing I know is that if our generation doesn't study history to understand and acknowledge the truth

about the past then as the philosopher, George Santayana,once said "Those who fail to learn the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them."