Lebanese protesters torch Danish Embassy

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

This ain't the western media - it's the Arab-European League. The others are cartoons as they have been published in the Arab media. Didn't see anyone protesting the lack of sensitivity and respect then. Neither have I seen them set Saudi and Qatar embassies on fire. I have a problem with a mob unable to take what they dish out. It's dishonest to say the least...

You are right, but think about this. We are constantly stereotyping the islamic world, not intentionally but by our reliance on corporate controlled media, and a lack of desire to educate ourselves about other cultures and religions. Do we allow for the possible existence of moderate muslims who might be equally offended by both racist depictions not only of muslims but of jews, christians, hindus etc?

Not every muslim is an arab, and yet we present the discourse on islamic fundamentalism as if they are all one and the same. Its more convenient of course to merge, consolidate and otherwise eliminate cultural differences and view all muslims as a single group, with a face as presented by Osama Bin Laden and Al Qaeda. For a lot of people I suspect, their conception of the middle east is one big morass of howling lunatics, with a sign saying "here be dragons".

The same of course is true of the extremists - their world view of the west, does not allow for the existence of people who don't want to destroy their religion.

[Jaylen Brit 0]

ET - allow the placards with 'Europe your 9/11 is coming' and 'remember 9/11' and 'kill..whoever'

I didnt mention cartoons because this thread was primarily concerned with the burning and protesting

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

This ain't the western media - it's the Arab-European League. The others are cartoons as they have been published in the Arab media. Didn't see anyone protesting the lack of sensitivity and respect then. Neither have I seen them set Saudi and Qatar embassies on fire. I have a problem with a mob unable to take what they dish out. It's dishonest to say the least...

You are right, but think about this. We are constantly stereotyping the islamic world, not intentionally but by our reliance on corporate controlled media, and a lack of desire to educate ourselves about other cultures and religions. Do we allow for the possible existence of moderate muslims who might be equally offended by both racist depictions not only of muslims but of jews, christians, hindus etc?

Not every muslim is an arab, and yet we present the discourse on islamic fundamentalism as if they are all one and the same. Its more convenient of course to merge, consolidate and otherwise eliminate cultural differences and view all muslims as a single group, with a face as presented by Osama Bin Laden and Al Qaeda. For a lot of people I suspect, their conception of the middle east is one big morass of howling lunatics, with a sign saying "here be dragons".

The same of course is true of the extremists - their world view of the west, does not allow for the existence of people who don't want to destroy their religion.

I am not saying they are all one and the same. I do have Muslim friends and I do not think that they would ever consider torching an embassy - just as little as I would. What I am saying is that these are cartoons. Nothing more and nothing less. The West printed them and says it's our right to do so. They say, no it's not. It shows a lack of respect and sensitivity they say. But then, their media shows the same lack of respect and sensitivity on a regular basis. And I haven't seen anyone protesting that much less torch embassies because of it. That's all I am saying.

Practice what you preach. Else, you're just ridiculous...

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

This ain't the western media - it's the Arab-European League. The others are cartoons as they have been published in the Arab media. Didn't see anyone protesting the lack of sensitivity and respect then. Neither have I seen them set Saudi and Qatar embassies on fire. I have a problem with a mob unable to take what they dish out. It's dishonest to say the least...

You are right, but think about this. We are constantly stereotyping the islamic world, not intentionally but by our reliance on corporate controlled media, and a lack of desire to educate ourselves about other cultures and religions. Do we allow for the possible existence of moderate muslims who might be equally offended by both racist depictions not only of muslims but of jews, christians, hindus etc?

Not every muslim is an arab, and yet we present the discourse on islamic fundamentalism as if they are all one and the same. Its more convenient of course to merge, consolidate and otherwise eliminate cultural differences and view all muslims as a single group, with a face as presented by Osama Bin Laden and Al Qaeda. For a lot of people I suspect, their conception of the middle east is one big morass of howling lunatics, with a sign saying "here be dragons".

The same of course is true of the extremists - their world view of the west, does not allow for the existence of people who don't want to destroy their religion.

I am not saying they are all one and the same. I do have Muslim friends and I do not think that they would ever consider torching an embassy - just as little as I would. What I am saying is that these are cartoons. Nothing more and nothing less. The West printed them and says it's our right to do so. They say, no it's not. It shows a lack of respect and sensitivity they say. But then, their media shows the same lack of respect and sensitivity on a regular basis. And I haven't seen anyone protesting that much less torch embassies because of it. That's all I am saying.

Practice what you preach. Else, you're just ridiculous...

I don't disagree. They have their Bill O'Reilly just as we do. Neither do anything to engage public debate as much as inflame and offend.

[mawilson 2,133]

I have no sympathy for the racist, flag burning extremist ####### who burn embassies, or set off explosives in metropolitan areas, I just don't believe those people are representative of the millions upon millions of law abiding muslims around the world who don't do these things.

Yes, they are. The "millions upon millions of law abiding muslims" do absolutely nothing to stop it,

which makes them just as guilty in my book. When I see millions of peaceful Muslims take a strong

stand against the extremists in their midst, we'll talk.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Do some research - you will find that there are many prominent muslim leaders who have spoken out quite strongly against islamic fundamentalism. The fact that it hasn't appeared prominently in the news doesn't mean it hasn't happened.

In any case, why should the many take responsibility for the actions of a few idiots? You might as well blame the Catholic church for not stopping the IRA.

I mean, what 'specifically', 'practically' do you expect muslims to do about this?

Edited February 6, 2006 by Fishdude

[mawilson 2,133]

Do some research - you will find that there are many prominent muslim leaders who have spoken out quite strongly against islamic fundamentalism. The fact that it hasn't appeared prominently in the news doesn't mean it hasn't happened.

In any case, why should the many take responsibility for the actions of a few idiots? You might as well blame the Catholic church for not stopping the IRA.

I mean, what 'specifically', 'practically' do you expect muslims to do about this?

Speaking out is not enough. They need to take action. I want to see these extremists banned from

mosques and excluded from Muslim institutions. I want to see millions of Muslims marching in protest

against suicide bombers and extremists.

[pedroh 21]

Do some research - you will find that there are many prominent muslim leaders who have spoken out quite strongly against islamic fundamentalism. The fact that it hasn't appeared prominently in the news doesn't mean it hasn't happened.

In any case, why should the many take responsibility for the actions of a few idiots? You might as well blame the Catholic church for not stopping the IRA.

I mean, what 'specifically', 'practically' do you expect muslims to do about this?

Speaking out is not enough. They need to take action. I want to see these extremists banned from

mosques and excluded from Muslim institutions. I want to see millions of Muslims marching in protest

against suicide bombers and extremists.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Do some research - you will find that there are many prominent muslim leaders who have spoken out quite strongly against islamic fundamentalism. The fact that it hasn't appeared prominently in the news doesn't mean it hasn't happened.

In any case, why should the many take responsibility for the actions of a few idiots? You might as well blame the Catholic church for not stopping the IRA.

I mean, what 'specifically', 'practically' do you expect muslims to do about this?

Speaking out is not enough. They need to take action. I want to see these extremists banned from

mosques and excluded from Muslim institutions. I want to see millions of Muslims marching in protest

against suicide bombers and extremists.

You mean like this?

1, 2, 3 and 4. Amazing what you can uncover in a quick 2 minute search.

If you expect more, then perhaps it was reasonable to expect the Catholic church to have done more to prevent the 35+ years of terrorism in England and Northern Ireland? When you look at it in those terms its just ridiculous.

I just don't understand why its black and white where muslims are concerned, yet rather more 'muddy' when it comes to our own extremists. We wouldn't think of blaming the Catholic Church or the Church of England for the Northern Ireland troubles? Why? because we hold people accountable for their actions quite apart from their religious beliefs?

Seems to me we're guilty of a little 'cultural imperialism' here.

Edited February 6, 2006 by Fishdude

[Jaylen Brit 0]

Do some research - you will find that there are many prominent muslim leaders who have spoken out quite strongly against islamic fundamentalism. The fact that it hasn't appeared prominently in the news doesn't mean it hasn't happened.

In any case, why should the many take responsibility for the actions of a few idiots? You might as well blame the Catholic church for not stopping the IRA.

I mean, what 'specifically', 'practically' do you expect muslims to do about this?

Speaking out is not enough. They need to take action. I want to see these extremists banned from

mosques and excluded from Muslim institutions. I want to see millions of Muslims marching in protest

against suicide bombers and extremists.

You mean like this?

1, 2, 3 and 4. Amazing what you can uncover in a quick 2 minute search.

If you expect more, then perhaps it was reasonable to expect the Catholic church to have done more to prevent the 35+ years of terrorism in England and Northern Ireland? When you look at it in those terms its just ridiculous.

I just don't understand why its black and white where muslims are concerned, yet rather more 'muddy' when it comes to our own extremists. We wouldn't think of blaming the Catholic Church or the Church of England for the Northern Ireland troubles? Why? because we hold people accountable for their actions quite apart from their religious beliefs?

Seems to me we're guilty of a little 'cultural imperialism' here.

Personally I DO blame them - and both govts as well - Northern Ireland suffered needlessly from this mess for years and no-one did anything about it - while the IRA bombed London and them and the UDA BOTH bombed the heck out of NI..and then we have the whole 'IRA supporters' over int he US - the whole was shameful and to me, at least, not in the least bit 'muddy'.

This is why I don't trust organised religion - look at history and see how many wars and deaths (and even genocides) that are done in the name of 'religion'. Its right up there with political extremism...

[Melo 1]

This is why I don't trust organised religion - look at history and see how many wars and deaths (and even genocides) that are done in the name of 'religion'. Its right up there with political extremism...

This is something I agree with completely... all organised religions are guilty of such acts.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

In any case, why should the many take responsibility for the actions of a few idiots?

Right. Why should the people of Denmark and Europe be held responsible for the actions of a newspaper or two? As I stated earlier, why is it acceptable to the Muslim community at large and to the governments of their respective countries for the Arab media to publish cartoons that are tasteless and disrespectful to other religous groups but if it happens that someone does the same against their religion, government officials demand apologies, Europe is labeled intolerant, it's citizens are threatened, people are kidnapped and embassies burn?

Do unto others as you would have others do unto you...

[Hilarious Clinton 452]

Didn't Mohammad preach peace?

Sure. But he was a warrior too.

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/History.htm

Great website

It's all black and white for you isn't it? Islam is a barbaric religion of hate and violence. Great.

Yet don't lets get started on the whole Protestant / Catholic northern Ireland thing that's been going for decades. We allow ourselves rather more scope for 'grey area' debate when talking about our own extremists, than we do for those of a different cultural background who we don't understand and apparently lack the desire to find out.

Have you read the Koran? Do you have any muslim friends or family? No? Well its always comforting when we can hide behind our own pre-existing prejudices. Apparently there's nothing to learn when all you have to do is pick up a handful of sand and call it the world....

I said he taught peace AND was a warrior. I have nothing against either. I was even a warrior myself (US Navy). You people get so upset when the truth isn't to your liking. Why even meantion the Protestant / Catholic 'thing' going on for decades? Quit trying to divert attention to other religions.

Why is it that most of the world's terrorists are __________ ? Why? You seem to never answer this question. Most _________ are not terrorists (but you will try to twist my words of course).

Edited February 6, 2006 by rch99

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

I thought this passage of a recent interview with Ayaan Hirsi Ali in regards to the cartoon issue was kind of interesting. She knows quite well what she's talking about and I, for one, value her opinion a lot:

SPIEGEL: Why have the protests escalated to such an extent?

Hirsi Ali: There is no freedom of speech in those Arab countries where the demonstrations and public outrage are being staged. The reason many people flee to Europe from these places is precisely because they have criticized religion, the political establishment and society. Totalitarian Islamic regimes are in a deep crisis. Globalization means that they're exposed to considerable change, and they also fear the reformist forces developing among émigrés in the West. They'll use threatening gestures against the West, and the success they achieve with their threats, to intimidate these people.

SPIEGEL: Was apologizing for the cartoons the wrong thing to do?

Hirsi Ali: Once again, the West pursued the principle of turning first one cheek, then the other. In fact, it's already a tradition. In 1980, privately owned British broadcaster ITV aired a documentary about the stoning of a Saudi Arabian princess who had allegedly committed adultery. The government in Riyadh intervened and the British government issued an apology. We saw the same kowtowing response in 1987 when (Dutch comedian) Rudi Carrell derided (Iranian revolutionary leader) Ayatollah Khomeini in a comedy skit (that was aired on German television). In 2000, a play about the youngest wife of the Prophet Mohammed, titled "Aisha," was cancelled before it ever opened in Rotterdam. Then there was the van Gogh murder and now the cartoons. We are constantly apologizing, and we don't notice how much abuse we're taking. Meanwhile, the other side doesn't give an inch.

SPIEGEL: What should the appropriate European response look like?

Hirsi Ali: There should be solidarity. The cartoons should be displayed everywhere. After all, the Arabs can't boycott goods from every country. They're far too dependent on imports. And Scandinavian companies should be compensated for their losses. Freedom of speech should at least be worth that much to us.

SPIEGEL: But Muslims, like any religious community, should also be able to protect themselves against slander and insult.

Hirsi Ali: That's exactly the reflex I was just talking about: offering the other cheek. Not a day passes, in Europe and elsewhere, when radical imams aren't preaching hatred in their mosques. They call Jews and Christians inferior, and we say they're just exercising their freedom of speech. When will the Europeans realize that the Islamists don't allow their critics the same right? After the West prostrates itself, they'll be more than happy to say that Allah has made the infidels spineless.

Full Interview here

[JayJay 4]

Now see...this is why (having spoken about it in those other threads) I do not stand with any organized religion. Not because I am untrustworthy, or unsupportive of good people, but because I have seen time and again the results of a group of people turning into sheep, following each other over the edge of a cliff.

When it comes down to it, these are thousands of people marching, destroying and spreading hatred deliberately...because of a picture. And while the picture may be offensive to them (I can see that - after all, there are not meant to be any depictions of the Prophet Muhammed...let alone ones like that!), it is simply a picture.

Begs the question: what would have happened if for example someone dressed and went around proclaiming he WAS the prophet Mohammed... What would have happened then, if this is the reaction to a picture? What is the world coming to, when people take ink on paper SO seriously that they go around, smashing things up? Hell - I'll tell you what - why don't we ALL do that! The next time you take offense at something, boys and girls, go and smash at least five things up (could be a mailbox, a neighbor's car etc) and make a big sign condemning the perp and all other who look vaguely like him, to hell.

I think these people need to stop what they are doing, sit down and be thoroughly ashamed of what they were caught up in. This was no way to react - after all, if a group of people are going to complain that they are seen in a certain way:

1) They shouldn't perpetuate it (at least for the sake of their children) and

2) They ought to see that conversely, not all "Westerners" are Muslim-hating-extremists, and calm down.

I ahve no patience for people who wander about, aimlessly destroying things because they are angry. I think it's pathetic - and I'd say the same thing if it was one of my family, too.