Lebanese protesters torch Danish Embassy

[junglee069 0]

"The Holocaust, like all other acts of genocide, represents one of the lowest moments in human history...

Excellent. The choice of language here leaves no wiggle room at all - CAIR is clearly distancing itself from Holocaust denial!

A question for the Muslims... this stems from a blog I read in haste yesterday while trying to figure out why video playback doesn't work on my PC anymore

What precisely does the Quran prohibit - depictions of the Prophet by Muslims or all depictions by anyone, anywhere?

Judging by the reaction of Muslims, it appears it is the latter. If it was the former, it would have been no big deal as the editors were not (as far as I know) Muslim.

look - maybe this is my ignorance towards my own faith - but i am not aware of any place in the quran that prohibits depicting the prophet (peace be upon him). the quran does prohibit the drawing of pictures and sculptures - and this has to be taken in context - around 1400 years ago, in that part of arabia idol worship was a part of the religion of the land. in an attempt to forbid this and prevent it from happening- the depiction of ANY individual or scultpure was prohibited. later, the scholars extended this SPECIFICALLY to the prophet (pbuh) as it would be quite easy for the new followers of arabia to fall back into their tradition of idol worshipping - and attempt to worship the picture of the prophet rather than actually understanding his message. it's the opposite of that phrase - don't shoot the messenger - it's don't worship the messenger. he is what he is - the messenger. the message is a heavy message, pay attention to the message and give due respect to the messenger.

in any event, throughout the 1400 year history, the vast majority of muslims have refrained from drawing depictions of the prophet (pbuh). but that statement needs to be validated - there are within the markets of iran (yes, iran, one of the most vocal countries about this issue) where you can readily find paintings of the prophet (pbuh) and other important figures in islam. this is so because iran falls under the shia sect of islam, and they have a different perspective on the issue. also, during the mughal dynasties that ruled over india - many of the interesting personalities that ruled as kings had ordered their artists to actually draw murals of various battles and times from the era of the prophet (pbuh). these do exist, and can be found. lastly, amongst sufi art throughout the world, you can find depictions of the prophet(pbuh). having said all that - this isn't that hasn't been done before, and in some circles is even accepted. unfortunately, the vast majority of muslims in this day and age turn a blind eye to it, or just blow it off as that 'that was then, this is now' or 'it's different if muslims have done it in the past, but to have non-muslims do it now is not right'.

having said all that - here are some arguements and questions that have arisen in my mind - and i'm sure many a muslim will write me off as being purely blasphemous - but if you cannot be analytical of yourself, community - you have stagnated any sort of growth or progression......

first point to be made - no where does the quran, or hadiths (a collection of narrations about the life of the prophet (pbuh)) prohibit non-muslims from defacing, insulting, depicting the prophet (pbuh). even if it were to, how would anyone actually enforce that? you can't - it is what it is. you cannot hold someone who does not share your beliefs to the same laws that you are held to. that would be the equivalent of me going out to lunch with some co-workers and being offended that somoene ordered a beer. just because i don't drink doesn't mean my christian co-worker cannot. if i do choose to be upset about it, the MOST i can do is tell them that they shouldn't drink - for whatever reason, religious, health - i dunno, whatever...but i cannot punish them or expect them to confrom to MY belief system - it simply cannot and will not occur.

second point - given that the prophet (pbuh) has been depicted by muslims (although its not common) why are we NOW getting so upset that non-muslims have done it? shouldn't we be MORE concerned that there are muslims in various parts of the world that still do it (iran for example)? doesn't it make MORE sense to attempt to get the so called muslims to follow the religion BEFORE you hold non-muslims to it? another crazy example would be in the case of the united states passing a law that mandated everyone wear seatbelts. before the united states went over to england and complained that the british aren't wearing their seatbelts - shouldn't they be more concerned about their OWN people and enforcing their own laws on their own people?

besides, what right does the united states have over whether the british wear their seatbelts or not? similary, i don't think the muslim population has any right over what non-muslims choose to do. we can, ofcourse, exhibit our dismay through PEACEFUL demonstrations, and other non-violent means. beyond that, there isn't anything we can do.

third point. for any muslim that has actually read more than 2 lines on the life of the prophet (pbuh) - they would be well aware of his reaction towards individuals that were insulting, rude, obnoxious, and outright hostile towards him and his message. one example comes to mind - he went to the town of taif (i believe) to meet the people, and inform them of his beliefs - clean intentions, simlar to any missionary that has walked this earth. he was STONED and chased out of the town - bleeding to the extent that his slippers were stuck to the soles of his feet, glued with dried blood. taking refuge in an oasis - he PRAYED that the people of these town be shown the mercy of allah (god) and had nothing but good feelings towards these people. there are many more instances as such - but if you think of it - the prophets (pbuh) life was endangered, he was insulted, stoned, and chased out - and he had nothing but pleasantries towards these people. now in the bigger picture - what is more offensive? people throwing rocks at you, or drawing your picture? i would imagine rocks - yet he had the humbleness to pray for their betterment .......here someone has drawn a picture and the muslim world has lost its cool. obviously, it has completely missed the point of what the prophet (pbuh) was here for. if they stood back and took a bigger picture, and really pondered on 'what would the prophet(pbuh) do' - we wouldn't be in this mess.

last point - many claim that it just wasn't the drawing the prophet(pbuh) that was insulting - it was also the message that the cartoons were portraying. one message portrayed him as a terrorist. the others joked about other terrorist related themes. now, i wonder, for a second, where in the world this poor dane got the idea to equate the prohpet (pbuh) to terrorism. hmmmmm, let me think. 9/11. 7/7? bali, bombs going of in iraq faster than oprah can mint another million....it's an endless list. if the muslims of this world weren't busy blowing it up - that poor dane would NEVER equate the prophet (pbuh) to terrorism. what muslims do as a group carries well and far - if anyone is insulting the islamic faith - it's the muslims. we've ruined our reputation to the extent that people have begun to believe our fearless leader, the prophet (pbuh), was the way we are. what do you expect the world to think? the muslims of the world need to wake up and realize they've insulted their own prophet exponentially more than that poor dane by NOT following in his teachings, by abandoning his message they have done more of a disservice to the faith than a million danes drawing a billion carictures could ever do. the message the cartoons portrayed is and was TRUE. how do i know? look at the morons burning embassies, flags, rioting like its going out of fashion. if you call a liar a liar, he'll just lie and say no, i'm not a liar. thats exactly what we've done - someone showed us a mirror, and we freaked out and said 'heck no, i'm not that monstrosity' and went on a rampage - just to validate how much of a flippin monster we have become.

those are my 0.02. i've held them in for a while - and all in all - i honestly believe that we as MUSLIMS are to blame for this fiasco - from start to finish. we need to stand up, take a good look in the mirror - have a reality check, and do something about it. it's not easy being the laughing stock of the planet.

.......if you've made it this far, thank you for reading. and flame away.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

.......if you've made it this far, thank you for reading. and flame away.

I made it through the end. Wow.

My respect and admiration. You're no laughing stock.

[junglee069 0]

.......if you've made it this far, thank you for reading. and flame away.

I made it through the end. Wow.

My respect and admiration. You're no laughing stock.

thank you.

[Hilarious Clinton 452]

.......if you've made it this far, thank you for reading. and flame away.

Well spoken. Is there any religion that is interpreted the same way by all members? I would say only atheism and that doesn't really count.

[Mirorgate 0]

.......if you've made it this far, thank you for reading. and flame away.

I made it through the end. Wow.

My respect and admiration. You're no laughing stock.

I'm with ET on this. Well done indeed.

[bhajishah 4]

Agree 100 percent Junaid

many "muslims" few are Islamic

[Ameristralian 0]

I've been catching up all day in regards to these topics, and I gotta admit the conversations and arguments have mostly been very intellectual. I'm not as big a poster as you fellas (ET Rch Amalty, junglee, agent, etc) and my compliment might not mean as much, but junglee, your last post was great. Too bad you can't be a good role model to the rest of the Islam Nation.

edit: Thanks to all who have contributed in a decent fashion, you guys have put in a lot of thought on your posts, and I can say I've been educated today. Good on ya.

Edited February 10, 2006 by Ameristralian

[czarina 0]

Quran:

"There is no compulsion in religion..." (002.256)

We cannot make one believe what we believe, nor are we supposed to force or shove it upon anyone. So for me, this issue to a certain extent is not about depicting the picture of the Prophet by a non-Muslim, but it is an issue of respect. There is a very fine line between free speech and hate speech, and I believe all this cartoon does is create hate, and show utter disrespect for a religious figure.

Even if that picture wasnt supposed to depict the Prophet, it would STILL be offensive to me, because its perpetuating a stereotype, and stereotypes perpetuate hate. But unfortunately,as Junaid pointed out, some lunatics in our religion live out that stereotype....so for me, blame lays on both parties

Edited February 10, 2006 by czarina

[Hilarious Clinton 452]

I've been catching up all day in regards to these topics, and I gotta admit the conversations and arguments have mostly been very intellectual. I'm not as big a poster as you fellas (ET Rch Amalty, junglee, agent, etc) and my compliment might not mean as much, but junglee, your last post was great. Too bad you can't be a good role model to the rest of the Islam Nation.

edit: Thanks to all who have contributed in a decent fashion, you guys have put in a lot of thought on your posts, and I can say I've been educated today. Good on ya.

Come on in the waters fine.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

Quran:

"There is no compulsion in religion..." (002.256)

We cannot make one believe what we believe, nor are we supposed to force or shove it upon anyone.

So, you are saying that it is your taboo that was broken and you also admit that it is not my taboo. And since I was the one breaking it, there shouldn't really be a problem. At least not one that sets buildings on fire and gets people killed and injured. There should be a debate which is what this is really all about.

I do understand the respect part of it. But I break your taboos every day. And I break other's taboos every day. (When I pass that Amish buggy with my car, I demonstrate to them that I break their taboo). And I do so openly. And I don't feel bad about it. Nor should I. Nor should you want me to. That's what an open society is. Live and let live - according to your preferences and mine yet within an agreed upon set of basic rules - the law. You break my taboos, too. Openly. And that's your right. I might be offended by that from time to time. But it's still your right and I don't want to take it from you.

The look in the mirror, as junglee said, I think is what hurts. Not your personal mirror. But the mirror of the community that you are a part of. There are very bad elements in your community. Not that you want them there or condone or encourage their behavior. But they're there nonetheless. That's what you need to deal with: The source of the problem. The cartoons are but a symptom that will disappear (or never would have appeared to begin with) once the cause is cured. That's something that you need to do from within.

I am offended by many in the world daily because there are parts of my community that are an embarrassment to me and all of us. But I ain't going to hold the messenger responsible for telling me that. Or for the way he chooses to communicate it to me. Maybe it takes an offensive approach for me to really look into that mirror and ask myself the questions I should have asked myself for a long time. And maybe it doesn't and the messenger just thought it did for one reason or another. Either way, I shall listen to the message and see why the messenger felt it appropriate to send it in the first place...

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Quite possible, though, that the radical imams were set to exploit this one from the very beginning - no doubt that they sufficiently have done so. Not sure that anything could have avoided that. I haven't seen rational action taming that violent, murderous mob yet.

You're probably right. But undeniably an opportunity was missed to show unity with danish muslims in condemning the lack of judgement shown by the newspaper in printing the cartoons. Instead he made it about 'free speech' - as a means of playing party politics by pandering up to danish liberals. I don't see this so much as an issue about freedom of expression, IMO its about the press exercising a lack of responsible judgment in printing something that has led to widespread violence.

In the same way, rights – like the freedom of the press – inherently offer us the right to decide when to use them. The grounds for that decision include common sense and prudence. I may have the right to throw away a cigarette near a pile of leaky petrol drums, but I will probably choose not to do so, and will be held criminally responsible for a conflagration. Publishing insulting cartoons of Mohammed at a moment haunted by suicide-bombings, fanatical murder and American-led war or threats of war in Muslim countries was an act of that kind.

Edited February 10, 2006 by Fishdude

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

I don't see this so much as an issue about freedom of expression, IMO its about the press exercising a lack of responsible judgment in printing something that has led to widespread violence.

For someone to be that upset over the cartoons, I would argue, that person would have to be a pretty devout Muslim. A truly devout Muslim, however, will not engage in the kind of activity that we have seen unfold. Therefore, those that make up the violent, criminal mobs are anything but devout Muslims. As such, they have no reason to be that upset about the cartoons to begin with.

In other words: The violence was coming. If it wasn't the cartoons triggering them, they would have found another "reason" to set places ablaze and go on their killing sprees. It's just what they do. They have in the past and will in the future find "reasons" to do it.

I just don't think we should be muzzled to appease this criminal, violent mob.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

I don't see this so much as an issue about freedom of expression, IMO its about the press exercising a lack of responsible judgment in printing something that has led to widespread violence.

For someone to be that upset over the cartoons, I would argue, that person would have to be a pretty devout Muslim. A truly devout Muslim, however, will not engage in the kind of activity that we have seen unfold. Therefore, those that make up the violent, criminal mobs are anything but devout Muslims. As such, they have no reason to be that upset about the cartoons to begin with.

In other words: The violence was coming. If it wasn't the cartoons triggering them, they would have found another "reason" to set places ablaze and go on their killing sprees. It's just what they do. They have in the past and will in the future find "reasons" to do it.

I just don't think we should be muzzled to appease this criminal, violent mob.

I'm not saying we should either - just exercise better judgment over what we put in the news media. This is not anything new, the news media self-regulates all the time.

As I said before, just because we can print something doesn't mean we should. How many moderate people around the islamic world do you suppose will read the cartoons and see them as just more evidence that the war on terror is really a war on islam and muslim culture? What would be the inevitable consequences of that?

I don't think that many of the rioters could be described as devout muslims. I think their conception of religious faith is little more than a form of cultural nationalism. Its political, rather than religious. That said, the cartoons would likely offend any religious muslims, regardless of their political persuasion.

Edited February 10, 2006 by Fishdude

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

How many moderate people around the islamic world do you suppose will read the cartoons and see them as just more evidence that the war on terror is really a war on islam and muslim culture? What would be the inevitable consequences of that?

Or, perhaps, it will trigger more of this type of reaction:

last point - many claim that it just wasn't the drawing the prophet(pbuh) that was insulting - it was also the message that the cartoons were portraying. one message portrayed him as a terrorist. the others joked about other terrorist related themes. now, i wonder, for a second, where in the world this poor dane got the idea to equate the prohpet (pbuh) to terrorism. hmmmmm, let me think. 9/11. 7/7? bali, bombs going of in iraq faster than oprah can mint another million....it's an endless list. if the muslims of this world weren't busy blowing it up - that poor dane would NEVER equate the prophet (pbuh) to terrorism. what muslims do as a group carries well and far - if anyone is insulting the islamic faith - it's the muslims. we've ruined our reputation to the extent that people have begun to believe our fearless leader, the prophet (pbuh), was the way we are. what do you expect the world to think? the muslims of the world need to wake up and realize they've insulted their own prophet exponentially more than that poor dane by NOT following in his teachings, by abandoning his message they have done more of a disservice to the faith than a million danes drawing a billion carictures could ever do. the message the cartoons portrayed is and was TRUE. how do i know? look at the morons burning embassies, flags, rioting like its going out of fashion. if you call a liar a liar, he'll just lie and say no, i'm not a liar. thats exactly what we've done - someone showed us a mirror, and we freaked out and said 'heck no, i'm not that monstrosity' and went on a rampage - just to validate how much of a flippin monster we have become.

those are my 0.02. i've held them in for a while - and all in all - i honestly believe that we as MUSLIMS are to blame for this fiasco - from start to finish. we need to stand up, take a good look in the mirror - have a reality check, and do something about it. it's not easy being the laughing stock of the planet.

One can hope...

Edited February 10, 2006 by ET-US2004

[junglee069 0]

How many moderate people around the islamic world do you suppose will read the cartoons and see them as just more evidence that the war on terror is really a war on islam and muslim culture? What would be the inevitable consequences of that?

Or, perhaps, it will trigger more of this type of reaction:

last point - many claim that it just wasn't the drawing the prophet(pbuh) that was insulting - it was also the message that the cartoons were portraying. one message portrayed him as a terrorist. the others joked about other terrorist related themes. now, i wonder, for a second, where in the world this poor dane got the idea to equate the prohpet (pbuh) to terrorism. hmmmmm, let me think. 9/11. 7/7? bali, bombs going of in iraq faster than oprah can mint another million....it's an endless list. if the muslims of this world weren't busy blowing it up - that poor dane would NEVER equate the prophet (pbuh) to terrorism. what muslims do as a group carries well and far - if anyone is insulting the islamic faith - it's the muslims. we've ruined our reputation to the extent that people have begun to believe our fearless leader, the prophet (pbuh), was the way we are. what do you expect the world to think? the muslims of the world need to wake up and realize they've insulted their own prophet exponentially more than that poor dane by NOT following in his teachings, by abandoning his message they have done more of a disservice to the faith than a million danes drawing a billion carictures could ever do. the message the cartoons portrayed is and was TRUE. how do i know? look at the morons burning embassies, flags, rioting like its going out of fashion. if you call a liar a liar, he'll just lie and say no, i'm not a liar. thats exactly what we've done - someone showed us a mirror, and we freaked out and said 'heck no, i'm not that monstrosity' and went on a rampage - just to validate how much of a flippin monster we have become.

those are my 0.02. i've held them in for a while - and all in all - i honestly believe that we as MUSLIMS are to blame for this fiasco - from start to finish. we need to stand up, take a good look in the mirror - have a reality check, and do something about it. it's not easy being the laughing stock of the planet.

One can hope...

the means chosen by the dane were wrong - however i highly doubt his intention was to use the prophet's caricature to invoke the wrath of fanatical muslims. his intention was to portray what he saw to be reality. that reality is and was created by muslims. we've GIVEN him the ammunition - when he's firing it off, we surely can't be surprised.

i'm not defending the dane - but what he has done pales in comparison to what the muslims have done to themselves. besides, we've got bigger fish to fry - the muslim world is plagued with issues - corruption, nepotism, feudal wars, ignorance, illeteracy (both in religious and wordly affairs), lack of democratic institutions, unemployment, famine, floods, earthquakes, disease, tsunamis, oppressive kingdoms-regimes-pretend democracies, the palistinean issue, honor killings, terrorism, suicide bombers, ethnic rivalries, clashing islamic sects, iran's nuclear fiasco, .......god i could be here all night .......

had we as a community spent half the energies we've collectively spent engaging the cartoons - surely we could have made headway with one of the millions of issues we have.......

and now that the damage has been done - let's say the dane comes out and cries us a river begging for forgiveness, and all the western leaders of the world have a big old round table conference and sign a pact swearing to never defame, insult, depict, or refer to in a negative light (the prophet, pbuh) and promise to publicly tar and feather anyone that does (sarcasm) - right after they do that, guess what - we still have all the above issues to deal with. nothing changes. we're still the ugly monster that refused to believe what he saw in the mirror ........but now we've taken away the mirror.