Harvard bans men from gym during designated hours

[DeadPoolX 9]

Come now, DeadPool, you can't have it both ways. Jenn was talking about single-sex dormitories, and you responded as if it were your personal room and argued that the dorm itself were private. If you meant just the dorm room, then you didn't seem to address her question.

Since you insist on differentiating between the use of "dorm" and "dorm room," I will use the two that way so we understand each other.

The dorm itself cannot be private -- at least not to any successful degree. People come and go as they please. Even with many modern security methods (a lot of colleges today use keycards to gain access to dorms) it's still relatively simple to "slip in" unnoticed with someone else or a group of people, if so desired. Ignoring the "stealth entrance," someone could easily let their friends in whenever they want, so a dorm is virtually wide-open. The concept of "girls only" or "boys only" is nice in theory, but in practice, it generally misses the mark.

Privacy only comes in your dorm room and even then it may not work out completely if you have a difficult room mate. The best situation is to get a single room (scaring the ####### out of your room mate so badly they want to leave is another option) or opt for an apartment, which is far superior to the closet-like dorm rooms most universities supply.

[Jenn! 918]

I don't see the point of single sex dormitories. It's not done like that in UK uni campus dorms and people aren't running around having sex and orgies at all times of day or night. When I learned that this was normal in the US I must admit I was going, #######, why bother?

Of course, I am sure someone is going to enlighten me on this one.

I don't know, not for me either, but some people feel more comfortable. I was assigned to an all girls dorm my freshman year against my will, and most of the girls in there who had requested it had strong Christian beliefs.

[Peikko 1,575]

I am definitely not coming from some anti Muslim perspective, but rather the segregation is simply not a good plan unless there is some compelling reason for it. I don't even have a problem with the unisex rest rooms as portrayed in the lawyer series Ally McBeal (I have got that right haven't I?) Segregation has been employed for all kinds of spurious reasons in the past and for me, there has to be more than a 'I feel uncomfortable' reason to make this a reasonable policy to adopt.

[Peikko 1,575]

I don't see the point of single sex dormitories. It's not done like that in UK uni campus dorms and people aren't running around having sex and orgies at all times of day or night. When I learned that this was normal in the US I must admit I was going, #######, why bother?

Of course, I am sure someone is going to enlighten me on this one.

I don't know, not for me either, but some people feel more comfortable. I was assigned to an all girls dorm my freshman year against my will, and most of the girls in there who had requested it had strong Christian beliefs.

The suggestion being that if men are in the dormitories their 'modesty' would be compromised? Men aren't ogres and they are quite capable of self restraint, although I realise that that is quite hard to believe sometimes.

[Jenn! 918]

I am definitely not coming from some anti Muslim perspective, but rather the segregation is simply not a good plan unless there is some compelling reason for it. I don't even have a problem with the unisex rest rooms as portrayed in the lawyer series Ally McBeal (I have got that right haven't I?) Segregation has been employed for all kinds of spurious reasons in the past and for me, there has to be more than a 'I feel uncomfortable' reason to make this a reasonable policy to adopt.

Everyone has their line. Mine happens to be just before the unisex bathroom thing.

Don't you think there's room to accommodate people of varying upbringings? Is it bothersome to *not* be able to share a restroom with men?

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Would peep holes be a reasonable compromise?

[Jenn! 918]

I don't see the point of single sex dormitories. It's not done like that in UK uni campus dorms and people aren't running around having sex and orgies at all times of day or night. When I learned that this was normal in the US I must admit I was going, #######, why bother?

Of course, I am sure someone is going to enlighten me on this one.

I don't know, not for me either, but some people feel more comfortable. I was assigned to an all girls dorm my freshman year against my will, and most of the girls in there who had requested it had strong Christian beliefs.

The suggestion being that if men are in the dormitories their 'modesty' would be compromised? Men aren't ogres and they are quite capable of self restraint, although I realise that that is quite hard to believe sometimes.

Hmmm, well you usually seem to be so accepting of people's opinions and behaviors that others find odd. I'm wondering why this time it's different.

[doodlebugg 10]

I am definitely not coming from some anti Muslim perspective, but rather the segregation is simply not a good plan unless there is some compelling reason for it. I don't even have a problem with the unisex rest rooms as portrayed in the lawyer series Ally McBeal (I have got that right haven't I?) Segregation has been employed for all kinds of spurious reasons in the past and for me, there has to be more than a 'I feel uncomfortable' reason to make this a reasonable policy to adopt.

Since when does a religious mandate have to do with a feeling of being uncomfortable? I don't understand that correlation at all.

If it were me and I was paying some $50,000/year to attend Harvard and included in that price was the privilege to attend a gym you can be sure I'd demand something to accomodate my needs. Could I just go exercise in long sweats, a long sleeved t-shirt and my scarf? Sure! Would I be comfy doing that in the spring and summer? NO! I'm the one paying the bills for this college so I have a right to ask for this treatment. I also don't get how it's a public facility. I'm pretty sure Joe Shmoe or Lucy Smith off the street can't just join there, you have to be a registered student.

That being said I know of two students there who are muslimahs and they pay extra to join an all woman's gym, but I seriously don't think they should have to. There are other gyms on campus and this one is rarely used. Totally not a big deal.

thats absurdly ridiculous. Why do they need to work out, anyway if their bodies are always completely covered.

Much to your suprise, I actually am not completely covered when in the privacy of my home.

Edited March 5, 2008 by bridget

[Caladan 19]

I don't see the point of single sex dormitories. It's not done like that in UK uni campus dorms and people aren't running around having sex and orgies at all times of day or night. When I learned that this was normal in the US I must admit I was going, #######, why bother?

Of course, I am sure someone is going to enlighten me on this one.

I don't know, not for me either, but some people feel more comfortable. I was assigned to an all girls dorm my freshman year against my will, and most of the girls in there who had requested it had strong Christian beliefs.

My college had that. I can see both the benefits and the drawbacks, but in neither case is 'but it isn't fair to limit it by gender' one of them.

[Empress of Groovy 373]

Since when does a religious mandate have to do with a feeling of being uncomfortable? I don't understand that correlation at all.

If it were me and I was paying some $50,000/year to attend Harvard and included in that price was the privilege to attend a gym you can be sure I'd demand something to accomodate my needs. Could I just go exercise in long sweats, a long sleeved t-shirt and my scarf? Sure! Would I be comfy doing that in the spring and summer? NO! I'm the one paying the bills for this college so I have a right to ask for this treatment. I also don't get how it's a public facility. I'm pretty sure Joe Shmoe or Lucy Smith off the street can't just join there, you have to be a registered student.

That being said I know of two students there who are muslimahs and they pay extra to join an all woman's gym, but I seriously don't think they should have to. There are other gyms on campus and this one is rarely used. Totally not a big deal.

You could make the same argument for someone who pays big $$ to attend Harvard and who doesn't want to be turned away from his usual gym because it's "women's time."

I think we're using the term "public" here loosely, to describe members of the university community (both sexes).

[doodlebugg 10]

Since when does a religious mandate have to do with a feeling of being uncomfortable? I don't understand that correlation at all.

If it were me and I was paying some $50,000/year to attend Harvard and included in that price was the privilege to attend a gym you can be sure I'd demand something to accomodate my needs. Could I just go exercise in long sweats, a long sleeved t-shirt and my scarf? Sure! Would I be comfy doing that in the spring and summer? NO! I'm the one paying the bills for this college so I have a right to ask for this treatment. I also don't get how it's a public facility. I'm pretty sure Joe Shmoe or Lucy Smith off the street can't just join there, you have to be a registered student.

That being said I know of two students there who are muslimahs and they pay extra to join an all woman's gym, but I seriously don't think they should have to. There are other gyms on campus and this one is rarely used. Totally not a big deal.

You could make the same argument for someone who pays big $$ to attend Harvard and who doesn't want to be turned away from his usual gym because it's "women's time."

I think we're using the term "public" here loosely, to describe members of the university community (both sexes).

well I guess this is only a trial that they're doing so maybe if they get more complaints about it they'll think about having a women only section. That would probably be embraced by women from all religions. I was never comfortable working out at a unisex gym so I've always belonged (when I wasn't so lazy) to an all women gym.

[Peikko 1,575]

I don't see the point of single sex dormitories. It's not done like that in UK uni campus dorms and people aren't running around having sex and orgies at all times of day or night. When I learned that this was normal in the US I must admit I was going, #######, why bother?

Of course, I am sure someone is going to enlighten me on this one.

I don't know, not for me either, but some people feel more comfortable. I was assigned to an all girls dorm my freshman year against my will, and most of the girls in there who had requested it had strong Christian beliefs.

The suggestion being that if men are in the dormitories their 'modesty' would be compromised? Men aren't ogres and they are quite capable of self restraint, although I realise that that is quite hard to believe sometimes.

Hmmm, well you usually seem to be so accepting of people's opinions and behaviors that others find odd. I'm wondering why this time it's different.

I see your point however, I am very nervous of any attempts to segregate people on gender lines. I see Caladan's point of view that if it doesn't have huge impact why care? But again, it's back to the idea that it's not as if it isn't possible to apply the principles of modesty without taking what I consider quite an extreme measure. As I said at the beginning though, if this was a case of a private gym wishing to run it's gym according to some particular demographic well fair do's.

Regarding dormitories, I find that rather an archaic attitude which again plays to some stereotypical views of how men and women interact if allowed mix together. It's alien to my way of thinking and I find it regressive and potentially oppressive.

[Peikko 1,575]

Incidentally, I wouldn't 'insist' on shared rest rooms, but I don't find it a troubling concept either. Mind you, the guys would have to show a little bit of restraint when it comes to their propensity for 'pissing' contests. I don't have a compelling desire to step in wee.

[Jenn! 918]

I don't see the point of single sex dormitories. It's not done like that in UK uni campus dorms and people aren't running around having sex and orgies at all times of day or night. When I learned that this was normal in the US I must admit I was going, #######, why bother?

Of course, I am sure someone is going to enlighten me on this one.

I don't know, not for me either, but some people feel more comfortable. I was assigned to an all girls dorm my freshman year against my will, and most of the girls in there who had requested it had strong Christian beliefs.

The suggestion being that if men are in the dormitories their 'modesty' would be compromised? Men aren't ogres and they are quite capable of self restraint, although I realise that that is quite hard to believe sometimes.

Hmmm, well you usually seem to be so accepting of people's opinions and behaviors that others find odd. I'm wondering why this time it's different.

I see your point however, I am very nervous of any attempts to segregate people on gender lines. I see Caladan's point of view that if it doesn't have huge impact why care? But again, it's back to the idea that it's not as if it isn't possible to apply the principles of modesty without taking what I consider quite an extreme measure. As I said at the beginning though, if this was a case of a private gym wishing to run it's gym according to some particular demographic well fair do's.

Regarding dormitories, I find that rather an archaic attitude which again plays to some stereotypical views of how men and women interact if allowed mix together. It's alien to my way of thinking and I find it regressive and potentially oppressive.

Fair enough. I'd agree that it's archaic and it's alien to my way of thinking as well. I guess I'm not seeing how it's oppressive since it's not like it's some extreme forced segregation where *all* the gyms are single sex or *all* the dormitories are single sex and one has no opportunity to interact in a mixed environment. I think if people choose to self-segregate then let them.

[Peikko 1,575]

What is 'modesty' if not a feeling of discomfort if viewed in a way deemed inappropriate? Just because it's a religious mandate doesn't make it something else. You may well feel that I don't take this mandate as seriously as you do. You would be right, why should I? However, that doesn't mean that I want to insist you/people who feel this way should change. You have a right to your modesty as long as it doesn't impact on the rights of others.