Harvard bans men from gym during designated hours

[Caladan 19]

I like to work out in shabby weight training gyms surrounded by grunting, sweaty muscle-heads, but I guess not everyone likes this environment.

Checking out other people's body definition inspire me.

I like to think I inspire others. Mmm, hmm, girlie man, keep grunting even though you're lifting half as much as I am and you're fifty pounds heavier. Grunt, grunt.

[Caladan 19]

Eh. The university is pretty much *home* for students, and petitioning the administration for a couple hours a day at a rarely used gym makes about as much sense as petitioning the university for vegetarian or kosher options (which does happen without anyone getting all upset over it.) I think the relevant standard is the amount of impact on the population at large. So, no moving class times to accommodate prayer, but having six hours a week at an auxiliary gym, or serving vegetarian options, or having a separate Jewish student center that serves meals are all appropriate.

Having vegetarian options would be completely appropriate, but denying other people to have meat at certain hours because it would upset the vegetarian people would be ridiculous.

I would agree with you if it were the only gym on Harvard's campus. It isn't, and while I haven't been to Harvard, if I understand the set-up, it's one of the gyms tucked out of the way, not the main facility. It's more like me arguing that it's unfair that I can't get pork at the Jewish center cafeteria than having the whole dining system be kosher.

And as Jenn points out, the students do pay for gym access (in a way that they can't *not* pay; it's bundled into room and board and tuition.) So it would be more like forcing the vegetarians on a meal plan where every meal option had meat, and then getting up in arms because two days a week they were allowed salads.

The one flaw I see with comparing all of this to food is that anyone could potentially go where they want and eat where they want. If a Christian, Hindu, or Muslim wanted to eat some Kosher food, they could. There wouldn't be an aritifical restriction placed upon them, stating, "Since you're not Jewish, you may not eat this food" or "if you're not Jewish, you may only eat this food from such-and-such time." That wouldn't be said and if it was, there would be a huge outcry.

I understand what you're saying about this particular gym. It may not be the most important or easiest to access; however, it's still discriminatory to limit entry based on sex. If this were reversed, feminists on campus and across the country would be furious, claiming sexism of the first degree.

Probably not, actually. It's an intramural gym, from the article, which means it's not open at all times for all student activities. Probably no one's bitching about their poor lost rights if it's the yoga class in the exercise room or the weightlifting class.

[DeadPoolX 9]

Eh. The university is pretty much *home* for students, and petitioning the administration for a couple hours a day at a rarely used gym makes about as much sense as petitioning the university for vegetarian or kosher options (which does happen without anyone getting all upset over it.) I think the relevant standard is the amount of impact on the population at large. So, no moving class times to accommodate prayer, but having six hours a week at an auxiliary gym, or serving vegetarian options, or having a separate Jewish student center that serves meals are all appropriate.

Having vegetarian options would be completely appropriate, but denying other people to have meat at certain hours because it would upset the vegetarian people would be ridiculous.

I would agree with you if it were the only gym on Harvard's campus. It isn't, and while I haven't been to Harvard, if I understand the set-up, it's one of the gyms tucked out of the way, not the main facility. It's more like me arguing that it's unfair that I can't get pork at the Jewish center cafeteria than having the whole dining system be kosher.

And as Jenn points out, the students do pay for gym access (in a way that they can't *not* pay; it's bundled into room and board and tuition.) So it would be more like forcing the vegetarians on a meal plan where every meal option had meat, and then getting up in arms because two days a week they were allowed salads.

The one flaw I see with comparing all of this to food is that anyone could potentially go where they want and eat where they want. If a Christian, Hindu, or Muslim wanted to eat some Kosher food, they could. There wouldn't be an aritifical restriction placed upon them, stating, "Since you're not Jewish, you may not eat this food" or "if you're not Jewish, you may only eat this food from such-and-such time." That wouldn't be said and if it was, there would be a huge outcry.

I understand what you're saying about this particular gym. It may not be the most important or easiest to access; however, it's still discriminatory to limit entry based on sex. If this were reversed, feminists on campus and across the country would be furious, claiming sexism of the first degree.

Probably not, actually. It's an intramural gym, from the article, which means it's not open at all times for all student activities. Probably no one's bitching about their poor lost rights if it's the yoga class in the exercise room or the weightlifting class.

Correct. However, those are acceptable reasons for a temporary loss of time and use. Yoga or weightlifting are activities that can be enjoyed by everyone, regardless of what gender you may be. Just because more women usually sign up for yoga and more men for weightlifting doesn't mean the classes are restricted in any way.

This is in stark contrast to closing off the gym to the opposite sex. There's no clear-cut activity to sign up for and it's certainly not open to everyone in that case, so how is it anything like the examples you presented? The answer is it's not.

Edited March 5, 2008 by DeadPoolX

[Jenn! 918]

Just curious...do you all consider single sex housing on college campuses somehow discriminatory as well?

("hey no fair I wanted to live in *that* brick building, not this one!")

[Caladan 19]

Yes, it does, if you're looking at it in terms of what the majority of the student body can do and what the rule limits. Most of them are banned from using the exercise room during yoga class or the pool during kiddie swim. Those aren't considered unacceptable infringements on majority rights. Gender doesn't come into it. It's a question of whether six hours out of seventy per week is worthy worrying about.

[Empress of Groovy 373]

I like to work out in shabby weight training gyms surrounded by grunting, sweaty muscle-heads, but I guess not everyone likes this environment.

Checking out other people's body definition inspire me.

I like to think I inspire others. Mmm, hmm, girlie man, keep grunting even though you're lifting half as much as I am and you're fifty pounds heavier. Grunt, grunt.

I like to impress the juicers by spinning a 15-lb. plate weight on my extended index finger (a la Globetrotters) while waiting for the leg press. "Leave those 45s on there, tough guy," I say.

[DeadPoolX 9]

Just curious...do you all consider single sex housing on college campuses somehow discriminatory as well?

("hey no fair I wanted to live in *that* brick building, not this one!")

Not at all.

On-campus housing isn't the same as gym facilities, since you wouldn't normally expect to have people of both genders walking in and out of your dorm room at all times of the day. You would, however, wish to have your place of residence at somewhat private and by making it single-sex housing, it would be easier for some to perform certain day-to-day activities, especially in older housing situations and universities.

For instance, there are quite a few situations (especially in freshman dorms) where the rooms themselves don't each have a bathroom, but rooms share bathrooms or the floor itself only has several to go around. I can't imagine men and women would want to share these facilities all of the time -- especially women, considering certain feminine issues.

The bottom line, however, is that your dorm is supposedly a private place while the gym is a public place. There's a huge difference between the two. I expect to see people all over in a public facility, but I would be very angry to see tons of people in my apartment without my permission.

[isleta521 5]

I like to work out in shabby weight training gyms surrounded by grunting, sweaty muscle-heads, but I guess not everyone likes this environment.

Checking out other people's body definition inspire me.

I like to think I inspire others. Mmm, hmm, girlie man, keep grunting even though you're lifting half as much as I am and you're fifty pounds heavier. Grunt, grunt.

I like to impress the juicers by spinning a 15-lb. plate weight on my extended index finger (a la Globetrotters) while waiting for the leg press. "Leave those 45s on there, tough guy," I say.

I seen a guy once trying to impress everyone once by running like 200 MPH on the treadmill only to be thrown off about 9 feet as he tripped at a high rate of speed. I about busted a kidney not trying to laugh as I could not hold it in nor could anyone else. He could have gotten hurt badly which he wasn't, but his pride was definately destroyed and he never came back.

[Caladan 19]

Off the top of my head, the gyms also have mother-baby classes, pregnant women aqua-exercise classes, male-only and female-only (as well as mixed-gender) intramural leagues, Egyptian women's dance, and yet no one gets their panties in a knot over those activities stealing away valuable exercise space.

Just curious...do you all consider single sex housing on college campuses somehow discriminatory as well?

("hey no fair I wanted to live in *that* brick building, not this one!")

Not at all.

On-campus housing isn't the same as gym facilities, since you wouldn't normally expect to have people of both genders walking in and out of your dorm room at all times of the day. You would, however, wish to have your place of residence at somewhat private and by making it single-sex housing, it would be easier for some to perform certain day-to-day activities, especially in older housing situations and universities.

For instance, there are quite a few situations (especially in freshman dorms) where the rooms themselves don't each have a bathroom, but rooms share bathrooms or the floor itself only has several to go around. I can't imagine men and women would want to share these facilities all of the time -- especially women, considering certain feminine issues.

The bottom line, however, is that your dorm is supposedly a private place while the gym is a public place. There's a huge difference between the two. I expect to see people all over in a public facility, but I would be very angry to see tons of people in my apartment without my permission.

Technically it's only your dorm *room* that is private.

[Jenn! 918]

Just curious...do you all consider single sex housing on college campuses somehow discriminatory as well?

("hey no fair I wanted to live in *that* brick building, not this one!")

Not at all.

On-campus housing isn't the same as gym facilities, since you wouldn't normally expect to have people of both genders walking in and out of your dorm room at all times of the day. You would, however, wish to have your place of residence at somewhat private and by making it single-sex housing, it would be easier for some to perform certain day-to-day activities, especially in older housing situations and universities.

For instance, there are quite a few situations (especially in freshman dorms) where the rooms themselves don't each have a bathroom, but rooms share bathrooms or the floor itself only has several to go around. I can't imagine men and women would want to share these facilities all of the time -- especially women, considering certain feminine issues.

The bottom line, however, is that your dorm is supposedly a private place while the gym is a public place. There's a huge difference between the two. I expect to see people all over in a public facility, but I would be very angry to see tons of people in my apartment without my permission.

It's not that much of a stretch IMO to see that many of the same people who would like to live in a single sex environment might also appreciate being able to do what could be reasonably considered as a day-to-day activity (going to the gym) in a single sex environment as well. Maybe the solution is to build a gym in an all female dormitory.

I just really don't understand the outrage and IMHO it has everything to do with *who* is asking rather than *what* is being asked for.

[eekee 182]

It's not as if Harvard has only one gym and one place to work out. They have many different ones, so I don't see the big deal.

[DeadPoolX 9]

Technically it's only your dorm *room* that is private.

Fine. But you knew very well that when I wrote "dorm" I meant "dorm room" since that is the general use of the word. Such as, "Hey baby, wanna come back to my dorm?" Obviously, this stoned-out miscreant isn't asking a girl to "69 in the Rec Room," now is he?

It's not that much of a stretch IMO to see that many of the same people who would like to live in a single sex environment might also appreciate being able to do what could be reasonably considered as a day-to-day activity (going to the gym) in a single sex environment as well. Maybe the solution is to build a gym in an all female dormitory.

I just really don't understand the outrage and IMHO it has everything to do with *who* is asking rather than *what* is being asked for.

I don't think it really has a whole lot to do with who is asking. I'd be against this if a few guys were trying the same thing. In the end, the decision isn't up to me (or anyone here), but the entire point is that I don't believe someone or a group of people can close off the entire gym to a select group simply because they feel uncomfortable. If some people are restricted due to an activity occurring at that moment, then that's one thing; at least something is happening and those people who aren't allowed in could have been let in had they signed up previously. In this situation, the group not allowed entry would have no recourse at all. That is nothing but discrimination, no matter how you slice it.

Edited March 5, 2008 by DeadPoolX

[Caladan 19]

Come now, DeadPool, you can't have it both ways. Jenn was talking about single-sex dormitories, and you responded as if it were your personal room and argued that the dorm itself were private. If you meant just the dorm room, then you didn't seem to address her question.

[Jenn! 918]

Technically it's only your dorm *room* that is private.

Fine. But you knew very well that when I wrote "dorm" I meant "dorm room" since that is the general use of the word. Such as, "Hey baby, wanna come back to my dorm?" Obviously, this stoned-out miscreant isn't asking a girl to "69 in the Rec Room," now is he?

It's not that much of a stretch IMO to see that many of the same people who would like to live in a single sex environment might also appreciate being able to do what could be reasonably considered as a day-to-day activity (going to the gym) in a single sex environment as well. Maybe the solution is to build a gym in an all female dormitory.

I just really don't understand the outrage and IMHO it has everything to do with *who* is asking rather than *what* is being asked for.

I don't think it really has a whole lot to do with who is asking. I'd be against this if a few guys were trying the same thing. In the end, the decision isn't up to me (or anyone here), but the entire point is that I don't believe someone or a group of people can close off the entire gym to a select group simply because they feel uncomfortable. If some people are restricted due to an activity occurring at that moment, then that's one thing; at least something is happening and those people who aren't allowed in could have been let in had they signed up previously. In this situation, the group not allowed entry would have no recourse at all. That is nothing but discrimination, no matter how you slice it.

So it's the reason that they want the special accommodation that makes you disagree with it? "Feeling uncomfortable" isn't valid? What if they wanted to close off the gym for people with certain disabilities during a certain time - is that discriminatory against people without disabilities?

And I'm not saying that it's because they are women that there is an outrage, but rather because they are Muslim. Not saying that's where you're coming from, but I suspect that many people react negatively because they're thinking, "there they go again, asking for special treatment...", rather than actually evaluating the request and seeing that it's not so unreasonable.

And yes, the group not allowed entry would have the recourse to visit one of the dozens of other gyms on campus.

[Peikko 1,575]

I don't see the point of single sex dormitories. It's not done like that in UK uni campus dorms and people aren't running around having sex and orgies at all times of day or night. When I learned that this was normal in the US I must admit I was going, #######, why bother?

Of course, I am sure someone is going to enlighten me on this one.