American's view on Islam

[Sofiyya 1,687]

My question to every woman/man in the MENA forum how do you feel about the differences b/t the religons? For women a husband can Swear before God he won't marry more than one but in his heart he knows in the quran it accepts him to marry up to 4 if he actually desired to do that. How do the MENA men and women feel about no vows being presented in the marriage if you married 100% islamically? Does everyone accept the kids to follow Islam because of the quran presents the muslim woman or man with that right? I read the quran recently and sat down with my cousin who is an extremely religious muslim and he explained that if a man was restricted from marriage because he was say handicapped, mentally ill, or a man who didn't have enough money to marry, he never looked at women in his life, remained a virgin until death, etc.. He would receive 40 virgins after death as a reward for remaining clean in life no exactly in a sexually way but if he wanted something in heaven he would have 40 maidens. Also in some cases if a man needs sexual relations with a woman he is allowed to "make a contract" with another woman and accept her as a wife for a short period of time and they are "annulled" afterwards. How does everyone who has converted from another religion or pending on converting feel about the differences?

You asked for real talk about religious differences; a few examples:

One thing non-Muslim women have to be aware of is, like you, your non-Muslim sisters and daughters are eligible for marriage with a Muslim man, but your non-Muslim brothers and sons are not good enough for marriage with a Muslim woman; in fact, non-Muslim men are believed to be evil in the eyes of the law-makers. Non-Muslim men lower the social status of a Muslima, and serve only to cause her pain and suffering. If your son, brother, or male friend is attracted to a Muslim woman, he, unlike you, who is elevated by your association with a Muslim man; will not be allowed to love her as long as he is non-Muslim and, therefore, beneath her.

You cannot inherit from a Muslim husband, and he is not to inherit from you or any non-Muslim in your family.

Your husband will be pressured to convert you and raise your children as Muslim, for the law says the Muslim man is the head and leader in his household, and the wife and children are to be submissive and conform to his pleasure. Despite claims that a kitabi wife be allowed to practice her faith freely, in the real world, any man who cannot control and convert his wife is seen as weak and ineffectual.

If he is not practicing, and many Muslims think only bad Muslims marry non-Muslims anyway, then these will not be a problem for you. But, seriously, why marry a Muslim unless you can either live with the differences or one of you be less of what religion you are?

Edited February 29, 2008 by Virtual wife

[SaadBell 0]

I was just kidding about the God thing. One question so God doesn't give a ####### about me? ####### I seem to have more compassion for humans than he does. I mean to put someone in eternal hell, just seems a little much, I mean even I am not that nasty. I think if there is anything like a God, wouldn't the world be a wonderful place, no little kids dying of hunger, murder, and poverty. One would say that is the humans are doing all the bad things, true, but that is where this God comes in, to fix it all. God could do what he wants, I mean he makes the rules, so he can just think it and it is so. Why does he stand by and do nothing, I mean if he was in the real working world, he would have been fired a long time ago. Having this world's mess on one's resume is not something you would want to show around. My family is very religious, my mother, and husband, than there is me, who always is questioning things. None of it makes any sense to me personally. I really wish I could have faith that there is something out there watching me and taking care of me, but deep down I just can't believe this. Muslim, Jewish, Christian, or any religion, it so not something that I would keep me from marrying someone I love. I don't have any problems with my loved ones having faith, I think my husband has thoughts, but like me was raised not to EVER QUESTION GOD. Too bad we just can't take the good stuff, like peace and love, and leave the negative behind.

[Beauty for Ashes 257]

My question to every woman/man in the MENA forum how do you feel about the differences b/t the religons? For women a husband can Swear before God he won't marry more than one but in his heart he knows in the quran it accepts him to marry up to 4 if he actually desired to do that. How do the MENA men and women feel about no vows being presented in the marriage if you married 100% islamically? Does everyone accept the kids to follow Islam because of the quran presents the muslim woman or man with that right? I read the quran recently and sat down with my cousin who is an extremely religious muslim and he explained that if a man was restricted from marriage because he was say handicapped, mentally ill, or a man who didn't have enough money to marry, he never looked at women in his life, remained a virgin until death, etc.. He would receive 40 virgins after death as a reward for remaining clean in life no exactly in a sexually way but if he wanted something in heaven he would have 40 maidens. Also in some cases if a man needs sexual relations with a woman he is allowed to "make a contract" with another woman and accept her as a wife for a short period of time and they are "annulled" afterwards. How does everyone who has converted from another religion or pending on converting feel about the differences?

You asked for real talk about religious differences; a few examples:

One thing non-Muslim women have to be aware of is, like you, your non-Muslim sisters and daughters are eligible for marriage with a Muslim man, but your non-Muslim brothers and sons are not good enough for marriage with a Muslim woman; in fact, non-Muslim men are believed to be evil in the eyes of the law-makers. Non-Muslim men lower the social status of a Muslima, and serve only to cause her pain and suffering. If your son, brother, or male friend is attracted to a Muslim woman, he, unlike you, who is elevated by your association with a Muslim man; will not be allowed to love her as long as he is non-Muslim and, therefore, beneath her.

You cannot inherit from a Muslim husband, and he is not to inherit from you or any non-Muslim in your family.

Your husband will be pressured to convert you and raise your children as Muslim, for the law says the Muslim man is the head and leader in his household, and the wife and children are to be submissive and conform to his pleasure. Despite claims that a kitabi wife be allowed to practice her faith freely, in the real world, any man who cannot control and convert his wife is seen as weak and ineffectual.

If he is not practicing, and many Muslims think only bad Muslims marry non-Muslims anyway, then these will not be a problem for you. But, seriously, why marry a Muslim unless you can either live with the differences or one of you be less of what religion you are?

its revert not convert.....we are all born muslims according to islam and there is no compulsion in Islam.Submissive and conform to his pleasure?Hogwash....I feel more loved and cherished by my husband tha i ever did w a redneck.

[Beauty for Ashes 257]

No offense taken, sis. This isn't about you, anyway. You've never claimed to be such an expert about Islamic law, Arabs, and Muslims that you don't even need to show substance behind your claims.

Nope, that ain't you . . .

its wrong....muslimas cannot marry non muslims....no way..no how....no...

muslimas cannot marry outside of Islam....period

[Jenn! 918]

wahrania, you're definitely gonna need to do more than just say the same thing over and over if you want to "win" this debate. I think Virtual Wife has put forth some convincing and well-reasoned arguments. "You're wrong just because" isn't really working as a rebuttal.

Since so many muslims *do* agree with you, there must be some reason why, no?

Edited February 29, 2008 by Jenn!

[Beauty for Ashes 257]

wahrania, you're definitely gonna need to do more than just say the same thing over and over if you want to "win" this debate. I think Virtual Wife has put forth some convincing and well-reasoned arguments. "You're wrong just because" isn't really working as a rebuttal.

Since so many muslims *do* agree with you, there must be some reason why, no?

MUSLIM WOMAN AND NON-MUSLIM MAN:

..... And give not (your daughters) in marriage to

Al-Mushrikun** till they

believe in Allah alone and verily a believing slave is better

than a (free) Mushrik, even though he pleases you....[2:221] **

Al-Mushrikun=>Pagans, idolators, polytheist and disbelievers in

the Oneness of Allah and in His messanger Prophet Muhammad SAW)

- [[6]]

Islam considers the husband head-of-the-family and therefore

requires that a Muslima cannot marry a non-Muslim because she

will be under the authority of a non-muslim husband. He may

prevent her from carrying out her religious obligations by

either pressuring her or physically abusing her. But it is not

the sole reason for imposing the restriction. The situation is

considered very damaging for the woman to practise Islam

afterwards and even worse for the kids in such marriages. There

are NO conditions mentioned under which a Muslim woman IS

allowed to get married or remain married to a non-Muslim husband

after she has accepted Islam. Therefore, even if she has freedom

to practise Islam after marriage, she is NOT allowed to enter

into an inter-faith marriage.

[Zee Bee 61]

I saw the comment about Muslimas being forbidden to marry non-Muslims and had to chime in. My friends and I have talked about this issue and here is how I rationalize it:

In Surah Baqarah (verse 221) it says:

Do not marry unbelieving women (idolaters), until they believe. A slave woman who believes is better than an unbelieving woman, even though she allures you. Nor marry (your girls) to unbelievers until they believe. A man slave who believes is better than an unbeliever, even though he allures you. [...]

From that this is what I gather...Muslim men and women are not supposed to marry non-Muslims. That would be the end of it but the Quran goes further to say in Surah al-Maaidah (verse 5):

[...] (Lawful unto you in marriage) are (not only) chaste women who are believers, but chaste women among the People of the Book, revealed before your time [...]

Now, looking at these 2 verses, I say that if Muslim men, who are not supposed to marry unbelievers, but, given permission to marry the People of the Book, then it follows that the same goes for women since the People of the Book are not considered unbelievers. There is no verse that has explicitly said "Women do not marry anyone but a Muslim man" (if there is, then I guess I missed it).

I know that this explanation does not fly for everyone. Like I said I haven't seen anything else to suggest that Muslim women are not to marry non-Muslim men (unless to count all the scholars who say so - who all happen to be men). If someone finds it, please share.

Peace.

[Jen C 2008 0]

since there is great wisdom and experience in this group, how whould you answer this: When a Muslim man marries an athiest woman, is he still a Muslim?

or maybe this should raise a red flag for the woman as to the true reason he is marrying her, as this is considered Haram!

anyway, just curious as this thread seems to ber taking so many turns !

[morocco4ever 63]

wahrania, you're definitely gonna need to do more than just say the same thing over and over if you want to "win" this debate. I think Virtual Wife has put forth some convincing and well-reasoned arguments. "You're wrong just because" isn't really working as a rebuttal.

Since so many muslims *do* agree with you, there must be some reason why, no?

MUSLIM WOMAN AND NON-MUSLIM MAN:

..... And give not (your daughters) in marriage to

Al-Mushrikun** till they

believe in Allah alone and verily a believing slave is better

than a (free) Mushrik, even though he pleases you....[2:221] **

Al-Mushrikun=>Pagans, idolators, polytheist and disbelievers in

the Oneness of Allah and in His messanger Prophet Muhammad SAW)

- [[6]]

Islam considers the husband head-of-the-family and therefore

requires that a Muslima cannot marry a non-Muslim because she

will be under the authority of a non-muslim husband. He may

prevent her from carrying out her religious obligations by

either pressuring her or physically abusing her. But it is not

the sole reason for imposing the restriction. The situation is

considered very damaging for the woman to practise Islam

afterwards and even worse for the kids in such marriages. There

are NO conditions mentioned under which a Muslim woman IS

allowed to get married or remain married to a non-Muslim husband

after she has accepted Islam. Therefore, even if she has freedom

to practise Islam after marriage, she is NOT allowed to enter

into an inter-faith marriage.

I am far from an expert in Islam, but when I read the bolded word "till" this to me means that they are forbidden to marry as you put it "Al-Mushrikun=>Pagans, idolators, polytheist and disbelievers in

the Oneness of Allah and in His messanger Prophet Muhammad SAW)

- [[6]]"

Now if that means a non muslim then it translates to me that she is forbidden only until she is a firm and committed Muslim. So what I see is that is a matter of our own personal translations.

[doodlebugg 10]

Submissive and conform to his pleasure?Hogwash....I feel more loved and cherished by my husband tha i ever did w a redneck.

Being submissive and conforming to his pleasure doesn't mean you won't feel loved and cherished. I don't think I need to be submissive and conform to his pleasure btw but it's kind of a turn on in the bedroom.

[morocco4ever 63]

Submissive and conform to his pleasure?Hogwash....I feel more loved and cherished by my husband tha i ever did w a redneck.

Being submissive and conforming to his pleasure doesn't mean you won't feel loved and cherished. I don't think I need to be submissive and conform to his pleasure btw but it's kind of a turn on in the bedroom.

TMI....

[SaadBell 0]

I have questions, but under law I was born into a certain religion, won't say what, but even with all my thoughts, my family will give me the burial that religion requires. I have thought about writing a will, and forbid it or even put something in that will make than angry like cremation, but in the end, it doesn't matter what they do really. I will always love my family and husband, but I do have my own mind, and for some reason I just question the hell out of everything. I think my husband's faith is tied to him, and just because you love someone and have a good life, and what God says, screw you, you are out dude. Your wife had some questions, ####### is that about. That is not a all loving being, at least that is what I think. Or a Muslim girl marrying a different religion, so it is over for her too. That sucks, yea too many rules I tend to forget and break them all.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

its revert not convert.....we are all born muslims according to islam and there is no compulsion in Islam.Submissive and conform to his pleasure?Hogwash....I feel more loved and cherished by my husband tha i ever did w a redneck.

Well, sis, I could see your contradicted thinking coming from a mile away. According to the law you follow, children are Muslims because their fathers are Muslim. Now, you're saying that we are all born Muslim. OK, if that is so, wouldn't that be so even if they had a Muslim mother and ahl al kitab father?

And, if there is truly no complusion in Islam, why force men to convert to marry a Muslima? Why condemn Muslim women for doing the same as their brothers do, loving across faiths?

The submissive part I will address separately below.

wahrania, you're definitely gonna need to do more than just say the same thing over and over if you want to "win" this debate. I think Virtual Wife has put forth some convincing and well-reasoned arguments. "You're wrong just because" isn't really working as a rebuttal.

Since so many muslims *do* agree with you, there must be some reason why, no?

With all due respect, I will correct the parts you failed to be honest about

MUSLIM WOMAN AND NON-MUSLIM MAN:

Do not marry unbelieving women (idolaters), until they believe: A slave woman who believes is better than an unbelieving woman, even though she allures you. And give not (your daughters) in marriage to Al-Mushrikun** till they believe in Allah alone and verily a believing slave is better than a (free) Mushrik, even though he pleases you....[2:221] **Al-Mushrikun=>Pagans, idolators, polytheist and disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah and in His messanger Prophet Muhammad SAW)

- [[6]]

FYI: Al-Mushrikun are those who associate partners with God.

Remember I said it is not possible to explain the prohibition without insulting Muslimas and demeaning ahl al kitab men? Well, here goes:

Islam considers the husband head-of-the-family and therefore requires that a Muslima cannot marry a non-Muslim because she will be under the authority of a non-muslim husband. He may prevent her from carrying out her religious obligations by either pressuring her or physically abusing her. But it is not the sole reason for imposing the restriction. The situation is considered very damaging for the woman to practise Islam afterwards and even worse for the kids in such marriages. There are NO conditions mentioned under which a Muslim woman IS allowed to get married or remain married to a non-Muslim husband after she has accepted Islam. Therefore, even if she has freedom to practise Islam after marriage, she is NOT allowed to enter into an inter-faith marriage.

Being under the authority of a man who is head of the household - Seriously, sis, do you really believe that this is not merely another way of saying you are to submit to your husband as your head? How is that not sumission? It is the avoidance of submission to the will of a non-Muslim husand that your quote (from a website) bases its opposition on. So, how can you say Submissive and conform to his pleasure?Hogwash in one breath, then post reasoning that has everything to do with submission to a man in the next?

Edited February 29, 2008 by Virtual wife

[Sofiyya 1,687]

I saw the comment about Muslimas being forbidden to marry non-Muslims and had to chime in. My friends and I have talked about this issue and here is how I rationalize it:

In Surah Baqarah (verse 221) it says:

Do not marry unbelieving women (idolaters), until they believe. A slave woman who believes is better than an unbelieving woman, even though she allures you. Nor marry (your girls) to unbelievers until they believe. A man slave who believes is better than an unbeliever, even though he allures you. [...]

From that this is what I gather...Muslim men and women are not supposed to marry non-Muslims. That would be the end of it but the Quran goes further to say in Surah al-Maaidah (verse 5):

[...] (Lawful unto you in marriage) are (not only) chaste women who are believers, but chaste women among the People of the Book, revealed before your time [...]

Now, looking at these 2 verses, I say that if Muslim men, who are not supposed to marry unbelievers, but, given permission to marry the People of the Book, then it follows that the same goes for women since the People of the Book are not considered unbelievers. There is no verse that has explicitly said "Women do not marry anyone but a Muslim man" (if there is, then I guess I missed it).

I know that this explanation does not fly for everyone. Like I said I haven't seen anything else to suggest that Muslim women are not to marry non-Muslim men (unless to count all the scholars who say so - who all happen to be men). If someone finds it, please share.

Peace.

We can see if wahrania comes up with that prohibitive verse to settle the question. If kitabis are mushrik or kuffar, Muslims could not marry them, period. But there is the poor argument that after denying such unions to all Muslims, He then "changed His mind" and let men have at them. That makes sense if you believe God doesn't know the Message that has existed since Adam.

since there is great wisdom and experience in this group, how whould you answer this: When a Muslim man marries an athiest woman, is he still a Muslim?

or maybe this should raise a red flag for the woman as to the true reason he is marrying her, as this is considered Haram!

anyway, just curious as this thread seems to ber taking so many turns !

The answer depends on whether you follow Islam, the Middle Way, or Hislam, the double standard that expands men's rights while reducing women's rights. I'll leave Hislam to wahrania and tell you that even Muslims who marry out due to adultry are still Muslims. We have been forbidden by Allah to profess takfir on another Muslim. Their assignation and fate is with Him alone.

I mentioned before that the same sources that created a prohibition against interfaith marriage for Muslimas also created a prohibition against Muslim men living in the west with non-Muslim women.

But, we don't talk about that prohibition . . .

[Sofiyya 1,687]

wahrania, you're definitely gonna need to do more than just say the same thing over and over if you want to "win" this debate. I think Virtual Wife has put forth some convincing and well-reasoned arguments. "You're wrong just because" isn't really working as a rebuttal.

Since so many muslims *do* agree with you, there must be some reason why, no?

MUSLIM WOMAN AND NON-MUSLIM MAN:

..... And give not (your daughters) in marriage to

Al-Mushrikun** till they

believe in Allah alone and verily a believing slave is better

than a (free) Mushrik, even though he pleases you....[2:221] **

Al-Mushrikun=>Pagans, idolators, polytheist and disbelievers in

the Oneness of Allah and in His messanger Prophet Muhammad SAW)

- [[6]]

Islam considers the husband head-of-the-family and therefore

requires that a Muslima cannot marry a non-Muslim because she

will be under the authority of a non-muslim husband. He may

prevent her from carrying out her religious obligations by

either pressuring her or physically abusing her. But it is not

the sole reason for imposing the restriction. The situation is

considered very damaging for the woman to practise Islam

afterwards and even worse for the kids in such marriages. There

are NO conditions mentioned under which a Muslim woman IS

allowed to get married or remain married to a non-Muslim husband

after she has accepted Islam. Therefore, even if she has freedom

to practise Islam after marriage, she is NOT allowed to enter

into an inter-faith marriage.

I am far from an expert in Islam, but when I read the bolded word "till" this to me means that they are forbidden to marry as you put it "Al-Mushrikun=>Pagans, idolators, polytheist and disbelievers in

the Oneness of Allah and in His messanger Prophet Muhammad SAW)

- [[6]]"

Now if that means a non muslim then it translates to me that she is forbidden only until she is a firm and committed Muslim. So what I see is that is a matter of our own personal translations.

The problem is that the law is interpretive, and because there is no direct source for a prohibition in either the Quran or the Prophet's Sunnah, a ruling could go 50/50. It went in a way that maintained a pre-Islamic tendency to treat women as property and men as property owners.

In point of fact, marriage fiqh is based on slavery law, with everything from dowries to how many nights a man should sleep with each wife determined by her worth - virgins are worth more than widows and divorcees, they are worth more than slave wives.

The history of the early Muslims contradicts much of fiqh, which was developed 2 centuries after the Prophet's death. The Prophet himself had a daughter who remained married to a non-Muslim for more than 20 years after her conversion. The father of Al ‘Abbâs Ibn ‘Abdul Muttalib, the famed ahadith narrator, did not convert for 20 years after his wife, who was among the first converts. Abu Bakr engaged his born Muslim daughter Aisha to a non-Muslim man. The Prophet (pbuh) had no problem with this arrangement as long as no hostilities developed, as was the case with his son-in-law, who warred against the Muslims, was subsequently pronounced kafir, and made to separate from her.

Edited February 29, 2008 by Virtual wife