American's view on Islam

[sandinista! 1,816]

since when does prohibiting divorce=prohibiting polygamy? polygamy is not mentioned once in those passages.

[monnik 0]

since when does prohibiting divorce=prohibiting polygamy? polygamy is not mentioned once in those passages.

When a divorce is not permissible, then subsequent marriages are considered unlawful...

Mypoint is that God's feelings about divorce show that to enter into polygamy is to be an adulterer....

Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery." (NIV Matt 19.8-9, pp. Mark 10.1-12)

So, if Jesus states that improper divorce does not nullify a marriage, and if the first marriage still stands, then a "second" marriage is adultery--and NOT just 'polygamy'! The point applies to polygamy (having more than one spouse simultaneously), polyandry (woman with more than one husband) , and polygyny ( one husband having more than one wife )...

On the flip side, because polygamy was essentially considered adultery, there were not many direct passages about polygamy.. except when it was authorized by God in certain situations... monogamy was emphasized instead.... church leaders are to be the husband of one wife (stated in 1 Timothy & Titans)... and the reverse phrase, a wife of one husband, is mentioned in 1 Timothy when talking about the godliness of a widow....the importance of following the examples of the apostles, disciples, and leaders... etc.

Pointless information really for non-Christians.... but, it's out there nonetheless...

[doodlebugg 10]

Where in the new testament does Jesus, pbuh, say that man should only have one wife?

Better question would be: If it was said, would people believe it ???

Matt 19.8-9, & Mark 10.1-12

It's also mentioned by Paul in Romans 7

Divorce and polygamy are:

Hated by God (Mal 2.16)

Prohibited by Jesus, except in extreme situations (Matt 19).

Permitted by God because of human failings (hard hearts--Mt 19:8)

I was just thinking..... not sure if the concept is the same in Islam, but I will look into it... but in the Bible, Jesus likens the relationship between man & God to the marriage between a man and wife.... if the man is a polygamist, would that make him a polytheist, too ???

The concept is definitely not the same in Islam. The relationship between man and God is not even remotely comparable to a husband and wife since God cannot be compared whatsoever to man. God is Almighty and no one human can possibly conceive of what He is in reality. Just thinking about it gives me a headache. Then again I have a headache anyways.

[monnik 0]

Thanks for your insight, bridg....it was a random thought I had anyway....I will think more about it later...

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[Sofiyya 1,687]

Virtual Wife,

I am really puzzled as to what point you are trying to make. I have never seen a muslim woman marry a christian man ANYWHERE and the muslim family was thrilled about it. In Lebanon, I am not sure because I have not been exposed to it. I have seen palestinian mixed marriages but it was christian women and muslim men. You are a first for me.

Muslimas are supposed to marry OTHER MUSLIMS not people from outside the faith. The husband HAS TO REVERT before he marries her , and this is actually in Tunisia that his profession of reversion be before an imam. Marrying a muslima if you are non muslim in MENA countries is not an easy feat. Perhaps because you were raised as an American, you have had a different experience. But I can hardly see , lets say, an Algerian muslim woman marrying a Christian man and it being accepted. It wont be and I am sorry its not legal in Islam to do so unless he reverts. So you can pull up all this obscure mumbo jumbo but the fact still stands, if you married outside of islam and he did not revert, you did not follow Islamic law.

I think this topic was posted merely to incite and not to encourage meaningful discussion.

Wahrania, you seem to have a need to dismiss my views as ignorant simply because I was born in America, an event that you seem to define me by, and equate with ignorance and inexperience with Arabs, Islam or Muslims, even as you, a American born, non-Arab, non-Muslim yourself, claim greater knowledge. You could learn a thing or two from a born Arab Muslima who has actually done what you merely are amazed and befuddled by.

I’ve made my points quite clearly, and, despite your lack of experience in this area, I am neither the first nor the last Muslima to marry out and be ok with the family. What is mumbo jumbo to you is meaningless since no one is measuring scholarship by your awareness or lack of it. A meaningful discussion, which most of us are capable of having, has ensued, believe it or not. So, please don’t derail it; it could be a chance for your own enlightenment.

Islamic law includes the immutable directives from God, as well as the mutable law of men. No competent scholar claims to substitute his own law as that of Gods when He is silent on an issue. They may offer their reasoned opinions - fatwaas - but what is halal (legal) or haram (illegal) in Islam is up to God, not men. How Muslims actually interact does not always reflect His Will, and it crtainly doesn't bind Him to it. That is the very first tenet of fiqh, man’s law, as opposed to sharia, God’s law. Sharia and fiqh must not be confused with each other, nor given the same weight or authority, as a principle of obligatory practice. Fiqh, the source of the prohibition against Muslimas marrying out, is not sharia and, therefore, not divine, immutable, or unchallengeable.

Sharia is binding on all Muslims, fiqh is not. Outside of the imposition of religious opinion – fatwaas – as local jurisprudence, fiqh is theologically discernable and is discerned. What Muslims in any given place or time accept or reject re fiqh is a personal issue, and is not binding on Allah or other Muslims as a matter of course. That a prohibition has been decreed despite no prohibition in sharia renders that prohibition unequivocally conditional, debatable, and changeable. It is a matter that may upset some Muslims, but it will send no Muslim to hell for their disagreement or acting on that disagreement.

Fiqh is intended to allow for interpretation within the limited perspective of the mortal mind, and for the orderly implementation of rights and responsibilities of Muslims toward others, and Muslims toward God. Scholars are to be servants of God, answerable to Him, not dictators of Islamic practice. All Muslims are required to do justice in the face of adversity, and to help move the ummah ahead; not hold it back.

Since sharia does not prohibit Muslim women from marriage with ahl al kitab men, there is no violation of God’s law involved in marrying out any more than any other changes in fiqh law – the reasoned restriction on polygamy in Tunisia or Morocco, for example, are in violation of sharia. That is not mumbo jumbo.

Islam must not be equated with human frailities, such as paternalism or gender superiority, as is often unfairly done by those of little knowledge. While Islam is incremental in its application, no one society or individual is required to hold to any single social paradigm in order to maintain its “Muslimness” in the view of another. Our diversity has been a long-term strength that should not be discouraged as unIslamic, or because it violates some mortal law.

[SaadBell 0]

I have no faith in religion, but I have thought if I was going to be one religion, they need to have a kick ### after life. I have a long list of things I will need, plus, I too tend to bore after a month or two, so I need to mix it up a lot up in paradise. Now just being good and going on faith is not going to work for me, no I need to strike up a deal. I need a sign on bonus, depending on the rules of the religion and how much I have to give up; I am thinking at least a million. Plus, once again, I don’t have any faith so whoever I follow will have to at least give me a week in this heaven to see you know that it is the real thing. I think this is a logical deal, I am happy and whoever is in charge is also happy getting a new recruit. It is a win win all the way around.

[doodlebugg 10]

I have no faith in religion, but I have thought if I was going to be one religion, they need to have a kick ### after life. I have a long list of things I will need, plus, I too tend to bore after a month or two, so I need to mix it up a lot up in paradise. Now just being good and going on faith is not going to work for me, no I need to strike up a deal. I need a sign on bonus, depending on the rules of the religion and how much I have to give up; I am thinking at least a million. Plus, once again, I don’t have any faith so whoever I follow will have to at least give me a week in this heaven to see you know that it is the real thing. I think this is a logical deal, I am happy and whoever is in charge is also happy getting a new recruit. It is a win win all the way around.

hmmm.....except that God doesn't need you whatsoever anymore than he needs any other human. Whether or not you actually get to heaven will not affect Him in any way shape or form, according to Islam.

Edited February 28, 2008 by bridget

[SaadBell 0]

Why does god - a perfect being - have negative, human-based emotions like anger and wrath?

[HLM 1]

well ppl like hitler bush and osama bin laden need to see the concequences of their actions and ofcourse God will be angry with them. He has every right to be angry and u cant compare His anger to human like anger. u have to know God is JUST. His wrath will be in the right place dont u want to see all those who were victimized have their rights back? well exactly.

by the way this site helps a lot....IMO

www.sultan.org

[Y's_habibitk 2]

My question to every woman/man in the MENA forum how do you feel about the differences b/t the religons? For women a husband can Swear before God he won't marry more than one but in his heart he knows in the quran it accepts him to marry up to 4 if he actually desired to do that. How do the MENA men and women feel about no vows being presented in the marriage if you married 100% islamically? Does everyone accept the kids to follow Islam because of the quran presents the muslim woman or man with that right? I read the quran recently and sat down with my cousin who is an extremely religious muslim and he explained that if a man was restricted from marriage because he was say handicapped, mentally ill, or a man who didn't have enough money to marry, he never looked at women in his life, remained a virgin until death, etc.. He would receive 40 virgins after death as a reward for remaining clean in life no exactly in a sexually way but if he wanted something in heaven he would have 40 maidens. Also in some cases if a man needs sexual relations with a woman he is allowed to "make a contract" with another woman and accept her as a wife for a short period of time and they are "annulled" afterwards. How does everyone who has converted from another religion or pending on converting feel about the differences?

DISCLAIMER- these are my opinions, I mean no offense to anyones beliefs..

Well, I dont feel much about the differences. I am open to anyones beliefs if they work for them. I think Islam has many good points, and many great teachings.

When we got married, I knew it wasnt going to be a "romantic" ceremony that most christian girls dream of lol. But, it was fine and we exchanged vows later between ourselves.

I do accept and approve of our future children being raised muslim. I have been raising my 4 y.o son with a belief in a caring,loving,forgiving God. I have always planned on that. This is what I believe to be important. I suppose he will learn more of Islam once zawjy gets here, as Im in no position to pretend to have the knowledge to teach him. heh heh

As long as there will be no teaching of hate or intolerance to the children, I have no issues...

Will there be problems that come up raising kids in an "interfaith marriage"? Sure.. but I believe that those can be discussed and determined BEFORE they become issues. I think the biggest problems that I will have are with my fundemental christian parents. Communication is so vital. There are little things, like.. what will be acceptable for the grandparents to teach the kids? It will be hard for them not to teach them as they taught you. Can they give christmas gifts? Can they teach the child bedtime prayers that come naturally to grandparents(some)? These are things that need to be discussed in my opinion.

If you have major concerns about the belief system of said religion... ask yourself if you can watch your children be raised with those same beliefs.

If you are christian and you believe that anyone who does not take Jesus as their savior will go to hell..... can you have your children raised without that belief? this is a fun debate for me with the parents lol buddist monks... going to hell? Jews, "the chosen ppl of god".. going to hell? People all across this earth who help others their whole life, live right.. going to hell? Sorry, this is something I cant wrap my head around.

Wow, Im glad I dont think that way...I couldnt have married my husband.

Honestly, I dont know how a christian thinking in this way could raise children in any other faith.

This is a can of worms, I guess. I cant ever pass up on a religous topic lol

I have heard of the "temporary" contracts.. I dont think they are usually accepted in the society. These are a form of prostitution in my mind.. but thats my opinion and everyone has one. Its just a sneaky way around the sex before marriage rule lol

Well, theres my five cents

Lisa

[Ban Hammer 13,293]

I never got what the big hoopla was over the virgins in paradise. After about a month, maybe less, they're no longer virgins so then what?

nor have i. plus they eventually gotta realize they got more mother in laws than carter has liver pills.

personally, i'd rather have 72 slu!s wooohoooo

[Y's_habibitk 2]

personally, i'd rather have 72 slu!s wooohoooo

LOFL

Edited February 28, 2008 by Y_habibitk

[monnik 0]

Why does god - a perfect being - have negative, human-based emotions like anger and wrath?

No... why do humans have God-based emotions like outrage, love, pity, peace, gentleness, despair, anger, compassion, curiosity, inquisitiveness, confusion, affection, frustration, passion, zeal, distrubance, excitement, faithfulness, satisfaction, etc ......... NONE of which are mutually exclusive..... ???

and wrath--divine wrath, that is--when used to describe God, is not generally used as an emotion. instead, it is synonymous with the carrying out of his judgment...

hope that makes sense... and i hope that by you asking questions, you are open to answers, cuz i don't want to push anything on you...

[Jenn! 918]

Why does god - a perfect being - have negative, human-based emotions like anger and wrath?

I think this is a good question, and in my personal opinion it is because humans have a need to explain things in terms that they understand.

Understanding God, whatever you conceive him to be, is beyond human capability IMO.

[morocco4ever 63]

I never got what the big hoopla was over the virgins in paradise. After about a month, maybe less, they're no longer virgins so then what?

nor have i. plus they eventually gotta realize they got more mother in laws than carter has liver pills.

personally, i'd rather have 72 slu!s wooohoooo

I'm telling!