American's view on Islam

[Risto 0]

http://www.visajourney.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=114784

[doodlebugg 10]

http://www.visajourney.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=114784

what on earth does this have to do with the topic at hand?

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

http://www.visajourney.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=114784

what on earth does this have to do with the topic at hand?

Absolutely nothing. His topic flopped so bad it was a flopic....

[PetraPerson101 0]

Man what's up with people?

Fighting over bull. All over the place. My father runs into a *real* Israeli / Middle Eastern Jewish man - someone who's got real Israeli roots, who's lived in the Middle East until he came to the USA 20 years ago ( that is- he and his family did not Emigrate from Europe in the early 20th century. )

They talked, they became friends.

He also said- "You know, if we were back home ... we probably wouldn't even talk! Isn't that funny how things are different here in America?"

Man, if people sat and talked instead of saying hairbrained & moronic things ( for example - being ABRASIVE, ANNOYING, AND APATHETIC ) ... wouldn't the world be a better place?

Bleh.

Now I remember why I don't bother talking unless I've got something worthwhile to say.

---

But seriously - save the aggression for stuff that deserves it - like people who HIJACK your culture and faith - and people who misrepresent it.

And some people would do good to know - a good speech/writing/presentation will last a lot longer - and make a lot more impact - than hitting/hurting someone.

Edited March 9, 2008 by KyanWan

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

Man what's up with people?

Fighting over bull. All over the place. My father runs into a *real* Israeli / Middle Eastern Jewish man - someone who's got real Israeli roots, who's lived in the Middle East until he came to the USA 20 years ago ( that is- he and his family did not Emigrate from Europe in the early 20th century. )

They talked, they became friends.

He also said- "You know, if we were back home ... we probably wouldn't even talk! Isn't that funny how things are different here in America?"

Man, if people sat and talked instead of saying hairbrained & moronic things ( for example - being ABRASIVE, ANNOYING, AND APATHETIC ) ... wouldn't the world be a better place?

Bleh.

Now I remember why I don't bother talking unless I've got something worthwhile to say.

---

But seriously - save the aggression for stuff that deserves it - like people who HIJACK your culture and faith - and people who misrepresent it.

And some people would do good to know - a good speech/writing/presentation will last a lot longer - and make a lot more impact - than hitting/hurting someone.

[panamania79 2]

I found this on the net and it was written by a Muslim man from The middle east discussing marriage between Christians/Muslims. Since I've seen this is a touchy subject among everyone I'm not disclosing the Country this man is from as I hope this to be a clean discussion and not to offend anybody.

"Hello, there is not alot to gettting married in the mosque. There is the nikah(marraige contract) this can be short or long, but it must contain the maher (dowry) and the names of the bride/groom/witnesses. U dont even have to be in the same room, the 2 witnesses will ask if u consent, then tell the person writing the contract that you do and thats it. Now there can be several things in the contract, such as where u will live, if he gives u the right of divorce, etc etc. Just google 'nikah' or 'islamic marriage contract' and it will give u a more detailed explanation. The whole thing takes less than 15 minutes, a short sermon is read and thats it. The best advice indeed is going to speak to the imam.

Now I must point out that he cannot take part in a christian religious ceremony....he should know this,. but (no offense) he doesnt sound exactly like a practicing muslim. BUT he cant do this as it is imitation of another religion, and we are aboslutely forbidden to do this. Also we do not take vows of marriage. Marriage is a contract. We dont say till death do us part, cause we never know, we dont say forsaking all others, cause we can marry more than one...etc etc. Hope all this helps. Peace

PS, some mosques do not allow univited non muslims, I dont think u will have any problem whatsoever. the marriage is generally not conducted in the musalla (prayer area) it is usually done in a adjacent room, which is therefore technically not the mosque. Dont worry.

Ok, I got married to one of my wives at the justice of the peace...courthouse...the problem is they read the standard marriage vows, now it has changed for muslims, alhamdulillah...and u just need 2 witnesses. As for non denominationa;, if there is no religion, then whats the point? I mean are u trying to do something to satisfy family? Just bring them to the mosque marriage. As long as they dress appropriately there should be no problem. I did this In *** and had a *** couple attend that my wife"

................................................................................

................................................................

My question to every woman/man in the MENA forum how do you feel about the differences b/t the religons? For women a husband can Swear before God he won't marry more than one but in his heart he knows in the quran it accepts him to marry up to 4 if he actually desired to do that. How do the MENA men and women feel about no vows being presented in the marriage if you married 100% islamically? Does everyone accept the kids to follow Islam because of the quran presents the muslim woman or man with that right? I read the quran recently and sat down with my cousin who is an extremely religious muslim and he explained that if a man was restricted from marriage because he was say handicapped, mentally ill, or a man who didn't have enough money to marry, he never looked at women in his life, remained a virgin until death, etc.. He would receive 40 virgins after death as a reward for remaining clean in life no exactly in a sexually way but if he wanted something in heaven he would have 40 maidens. Also in some cases if a man needs sexual relations with a woman he is allowed to "make a contract" with another woman and accept her as a wife for a short period of time and they are "annulled" afterwards. How does everyone who has converted from another religion or pending on converting feel about the differences?

I try not to judge people and respect everyone else's point of view even though it may not coincide with mine.But Islam is a bit confusing to me so I really cannot form an opinion until I can understand it better.For example some people say that men can have more than one wife,and some say they cannot.If they can,fine.If not,that's okay too.But which one is it ?

[Risto 0]

I found this on the net and it was written by a Muslim man from The middle east discussing marriage between Christians/Muslims. Since I've seen this is a touchy subject among everyone I'm not disclosing the Country this man is from as I hope this to be a clean discussion and not to offend anybody.

"Hello, there is not alot to gettting married in the mosque. There is the nikah(marraige contract) this can be short or long, but it must contain the maher (dowry) and the names of the bride/groom/witnesses. U dont even have to be in the same room, the 2 witnesses will ask if u consent, then tell the person writing the contract that you do and thats it. Now there can be several things in the contract, such as where u will live, if he gives u the right of divorce, etc etc. Just google 'nikah' or 'islamic marriage contract' and it will give u a more detailed explanation. The whole thing takes less than 15 minutes, a short sermon is read and thats it. The best advice indeed is going to speak to the imam.

Now I must point out that he cannot take part in a christian religious ceremony....he should know this,. but (no offense) he doesnt sound exactly like a practicing muslim. BUT he cant do this as it is imitation of another religion, and we are aboslutely forbidden to do this. Also we do not take vows of marriage. Marriage is a contract. We dont say till death do us part, cause we never know, we dont say forsaking all others, cause we can marry more than one...etc etc. Hope all this helps. Peace

PS, some mosques do not allow univited non muslims, I dont think u will have any problem whatsoever. the marriage is generally not conducted in the musalla (prayer area) it is usually done in a adjacent room, which is therefore technically not the mosque. Dont worry.

Ok, I got married to one of my wives at the justice of the peace...courthouse...the problem is they read the standard marriage vows, now it has changed for muslims, alhamdulillah...and u just need 2 witnesses. As for non denominationa;, if there is no religion, then whats the point? I mean are u trying to do something to satisfy family? Just bring them to the mosque marriage. As long as they dress appropriately there should be no problem. I did this In *** and had a *** couple attend that my wife"

................................................................................

................................................................

My question to every woman/man in the MENA forum how do you feel about the differences b/t the religons? For women a husband can Swear before God he won't marry more than one but in his heart he knows in the quran it accepts him to marry up to 4 if he actually desired to do that. How do the MENA men and women feel about no vows being presented in the marriage if you married 100% islamically? Does everyone accept the kids to follow Islam because of the quran presents the muslim woman or man with that right? I read the quran recently and sat down with my cousin who is an extremely religious muslim and he explained that if a man was restricted from marriage because he was say handicapped, mentally ill, or a man who didn't have enough money to marry, he never looked at women in his life, remained a virgin until death, etc.. He would receive 40 virgins after death as a reward for remaining clean in life no exactly in a sexually way but if he wanted something in heaven he would have 40 maidens. Also in some cases if a man needs sexual relations with a woman he is allowed to "make a contract" with another woman and accept her as a wife for a short period of time and they are "annulled" afterwards. How does everyone who has converted from another religion or pending on converting feel about the differences?

I try not to judge people and respect everyone else's point of view even though it may not coincide with mine.But Islam is a bit confusing to me so I really cannot form an opinion until I can understand it better.For example some people say that men can have more than one wife,and some say they cannot.If they can,fine.If not,that's okay too.But which one is it ?

Right on topic from the link bellow

"What is the place of women in the Muslim-Arab world?

Another aspect of the same question is the place of women in society. Still today, the place of women in the Western world is very far from one of equality, and in the past it was even worse. But even at its worst, it was incomparably better than the position of women in the Muslim world.

As far as I know, Christianity is the only religion which totally prohibits polygamy and concubinage. Even Jewish law has been somewhat equivocal on both these subjects at different times and in different places. This has an effect. In Christendom, you have women playing a major role - like Queen Elizabeth of England, Queen Isabella of Spain, Queen Catherine of Russia, Maria Theresa of Austria - something which would have been inconceivable in other societies. It also makes a difference to what we know about rulers. For example, if you look at the history of the Western world, you see we have biographies of major figures. If you look at the Islamic world, on the other hand, although there are many major figures, you will see that there are very few book-length biographies.

Why is that?

Because women can't appear in them. And a biography without mothers or wives or mistresses lacks all context. I mean, if you write the history of Louis XIV of France, the ladies in his life, starting with his mother, are very important. You have this to some extent in the very early Islamic period. We know, for example, something about the wives and mothers of the very earliest caliphs; they were free Arab ladies. But the later ones were slaves in the harem.

What effect has this had on Muslim countries?

It's a great source of weakness. The mid-19th-century Turkish writer Namik Kemal, as far as I know, was the first to raise this point. By that time in history, the Muslims were becoming keenly aware that they were falling behind the previously despised West. And not only were they falling behind, but they were falling increasingly under Western domination, because they were no longer capable of resisting. There was a long argument, which had been going on for more than a century, on why these "infidels" were succeeding, while "we inheritors of the true faith" were failing. They came up with all sorts of answers and tried all kinds of military, economic and political reforms, none of which worked very well. Kemal said that the reason "we have fallen behind is the way we treat our women."

He used two very striking metaphors about women and society. "We treat our women, at best, as jewels or musical instruments," he said, indicating something pretty and entertaining, but with no independent existence. The result, he said, using a second metaphor, is that "compared with the West, our society is like a human body that is paralyzed on one side."

He said that women are not less capable than men, and by depriving ourselves of the services and talents of half the population, we are committing a double error. Not only are we losing the women, but we are subjecting the men, for their first years, to be brought up by ignorant and downtrodden mothers.

A little later, there was an Egyptian - Qasim Amin - who came up with a similar argument. Amin had studied in Paris and acquired a French girlfriend. And he was passionately concerned about the position of women in the Muslim and Arab world. He wrote and argued about it. And there was some response. He was really the one who began the movement. Kemal had been a mere voice in the wilderness."

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?apa...icle%2FShowFull

[Sofiyya 1,687]

"What is the place of women in the Muslim-Arab world?

The Muslim world is a varied, dynamic, and diverse place. There is no one answer to this question, as there is no "one place" to reference. The question is ridiculous.

The Arab world is also a diverse place with variations among cultures, histories and societal norms. Arabs are not only Muslims, they are several different religions, including Christians. Among Muslims, they make up only about 15-18% of the Muslim world, therefore, are certainly not definitive of all Muslims or all societal norms in the Muslim world.

Another aspect of the same question is the place of women in society. Still today, the place of women in the Western world is very far from one of equality, and in the past it was even worse. But even at its worst, it was incomparably better than the position of women in the Muslim world.

Since there is no one stereotype of women in the Muslim world or in the western world, it is incorrect to make blanket statements based on nothing, really. I'm female, and old enough to remember when American women were protesting not being able to buy a home or get credit without a man, that they could be raped by a husband or a stranger and be punished for it. I remember reading ads in the Washington Post for jobs that were segregated by race and gender. I remember when the only jobs I could apply for involved being able to type. I remember the "paper bag test" when if your skin was darker than a paper bag, you could not quality for many jobs beyond maid or janitor. I remember when things were incredibly bad for women and minorities in the US. No one spent a lot of time then comparing themselves to what was happening in the Muslim-Arab world; they just knew that the American dream was not for them.

As far as I know, Christianity is the only religion which totally prohibits polygamy and concubinage. Even Jewish law has been somewhat equivocal on both these subjects at different times and in different places. This has an effect. In Christendom, you have women playing a major role - like Queen Elizabeth of England, Queen Isabella of Spain, Queen Catherine of Russia, Maria Theresa of Austria - something which would have been inconceivable in other societies. It also makes a difference to what we know about rulers. For example, if you look at the history of the Western world, you see we have biographies of major figures. If you look at the Islamic world, on the other hand, although there are many major figures, you will see that there are very few book-length biographies.

Why is that?

Actually, you have a problem with your challenge. Christianity has not prohibited polygamy or concubinage. There are individuals among the clergy who have denounced them based on their interpretations of the scriptures, but there are also Christians and Jews who practice both to this day, based on their interpretations of the scriptures.

Also, since the Muslim world has had elected women leaders, it is not inconceivable that they exist. Also, the inherited throne is nothing to brag about considering that the "divine right" of kings and queens lead to many abuses of their subordinates. This was not a glorious state for the common man.

Because women can't appear in them. And a biography without mothers or wives or mistresses lacks all context. I mean, if you write the history of Louis XIV of France, the ladies in his life, starting with his mother, are very important. You have this to some extent in the very early Islamic period. We know, for example, something about the wives and mothers of the very earliest caliphs; they were free Arab ladies. But the later ones were slaves in the harem.

Ignorance of Islamic history and the women in it is not a slander on Islam or the Muslim world; it is a slander on the author.

The rest of the post is incongruous and nonsensical in that it take quotes from two men and attempts to distill them down into the representatives of the Muslim world.

Your rhetoric is erroneous, ignorant, and biased. It is unworthy of further comment due to the fact that you clearly know so little about Arabs and Muslims that a discussion with you would make no sense and prove to be totally a waste of time. I'm not saying that to be mean; I do so enjoy a good debate with a worthy opponent. But, I am educated enough to be able to tell that you are not a worthy oppenent or you would know better not to post what you did as the opening salvo.

[doodlebugg 10]

Risto - do you have an original thought at all?

[nana_356 0]

My question to every woman/man in the MENA forum how do you feel about the differences b/t the religons? For women a husband can Swear before God he won't marry more than one but in his heart he knows in the quran it accepts him to marry up to 4 if he actually desired to do that. How do the MENA men and women feel about no vows being presented in the marriage if you married 100% islamically? Does everyone accept the kids to follow Islam because of the quran presents the muslim woman or man with that right? I read the quran recently and sat down with my cousin who is an extremely religious muslim and he explained that if a man was restricted from marriage because he was say handicapped, mentally ill, or a man who didn't have enough money to marry, he never looked at women in his life, remained a virgin until death, etc.. He would receive 40 virgins after death as a reward for remaining clean in life no exactly in a sexually way but if he wanted something in heaven he would have 40 maidens. Also in some cases if a man needs sexual relations with a woman he is allowed to "make a contract" with another woman and accept her as a wife for a short period of time and they are "annulled" afterwards. How does everyone who has converted from another religion or pending on converting feel about the differences?

You asked for real talk about religious differences; a few examples:

One thing non-Muslim women have to be aware of is, like you, your non-Muslim sisters and daughters are eligible for marriage with a Muslim man, but your non-Muslim brothers and sons are not good enough for marriage with a Muslim woman; in fact, non-Muslim men are believed to be evil in the eyes of the law-makers. Non-Muslim men lower the social status of a Muslima, and serve only to cause her pain and suffering. If your son, brother, or male friend is attracted to a Muslim woman, he, unlike you, who is elevated by your association with a Muslim man; will not be allowed to love her as long as he is non-Muslim and, therefore, beneath her.

You cannot inherit from a Muslim husband, and he is not to inherit from you or any non-Muslim in your family.

Your husband will be pressured to convert you and raise your children as Muslim, for the law says the Muslim man is the head and leader in his household, and the wife and children are to be submissive and conform to his pleasure. Despite claims that a kitabi wife be allowed to practice her faith freely, in the real world, any man who cannot control and convert his wife is seen as weak and ineffectual.

If he is not practicing, and many Muslims think only bad Muslims marry non-Muslims anyway, then these will not be a problem for you. But, seriously, why marry a Muslim unless you can either live with the differences or one of you be less of what religion you are?

its revert not convert.....we are all born muslims according to islam and there is no compulsion in Islam.Submissive and conform to his pleasure?Hogwash....I feel more loved and cherished by my husband tha i ever did w a redneck.

wahrania You sound extremely racist, which makes sense! Speaking to a racist person is like trying to get water out of a rock (impossible) and your answers are so uneducated!

Edited March 14, 2008 by nana_356

[SaadBell 0]

He would receive 40 virgins after death as a reward for remaining clean in life no exactly in a sexually way but if he wanted something in heaven he would have 40 maidens.

No offence to anyone, my family is very religious, husband has some questions, but than there is me, I just find the whole thing hard to swallow. All religions, they all sound so much alike, and people die everyday, defending it, it is kinda sad.

#######, people really believe this? What if you don't want the 40 virgins, but some good weed, like fields of it? Can you do a trade in or something? Women don't get too much I hear in paradise but her own damn family. ####### again, that isn't paradise that is what I call PURE HELL!!!! Once again can you get a trade off, or design your own paradise? Now that would be cool. I really tried to believe, but my thoughts keep messing me up.

[simple_male 1]

Risto - do you have an original thought at all?

Risto is a troll. His previous incarnation "Hristo" was banned by the VJ management. Risto is very good in copying and pasting. He does not say much. His only purpose is to copy and paste something to create distraction on the actual thread.

[sarahaziz 0]

He would receive 40 virgins after death as a reward for remaining clean in life no exactly in a sexually way but if he wanted something in heaven he would have 40 maidens.

No offence to anyone, my family is very religious, husband has some questions, but than there is me, I just find the whole thing hard to swallow. All religions, they all sound so much alike, and people die everyday, defending it, it is kinda sad.

#######, people really believe this? What if you don't want the 40 virgins, but some good weed, like fields of it? Can you do a trade in or something? Women don't get too much I hear in paradise but her own damn family. ####### again, that isn't paradise that is what I call PURE HELL!!!! Once again can you get a trade off, or design your own paradise? Now that would be cool. I really tried to believe, but my thoughts keep messing me up.

This thing about green and you it doesn't fit you I think you should stop talking about "ganja" I think you are an elder women you should respect yourself you might take it in offence but I say that from a good heart and I care to other women. I don't believe in 40 virgins and that's not there in Heaven. There's not even marriage in heaven. You came from heaven knowing only God so when you die you will go back to that same 1 God. No maidens no spouse just in God's Glory. Amin

[morocco4ever 63]

He would receive 40 virgins after death as a reward for remaining clean in life no exactly in a sexually way but if he wanted something in heaven he would have 40 maidens.

No offence to anyone, my family is very religious, husband has some questions, but than there is me, I just find the whole thing hard to swallow. All religions, they all sound so much alike, and people die everyday, defending it, it is kinda sad.

#######, people really believe this? What if you don't want the 40 virgins, but some good weed, like fields of it? Can you do a trade in or something? Women don't get too much I hear in paradise but her own damn family. ####### again, that isn't paradise that is what I call PURE HELL!!!! Once again can you get a trade off, or design your own paradise? Now that would be cool. I really tried to believe, but my thoughts keep messing me up.

I'll take a pool, lounge chair, cool drink and lots of sun.

[SaadBell 0]

It was a joke, but, I personally don't think marijuana is a dangerous drug. Most people are hooked on drugs, and they get them right from the doctor. I have multiple sclerosis, and also am a type one diabetic. Yes two incurable illness, when my little girl was only 7, I was doing interferon, which is a type of chemo. It was experimental and I had to do something, because I was dying at this point. Yes I smoke marijuana once in a while, not now, but it did help when I have to do chemo. When my MS gets out of control, like I can’t walk, than they can’t give me steroids, because of my type one diabetes. I have been given so many different drugs, some so powerful that it almost killed me a couple of times. So I see things just a little different in that area. Not all people who smoke marijuana are druggies, some people do it to help ease the pain of diseases that will never be cured.